Status of the Michigan Market

stasis said:

Thanks Guys. Great discussion You've made happen.

One thing. Whether Mitten-Way, Socal, Holland, NY or Mendocino. There is a top eschelon regarding people who actually study, learn and know strains. The percentage goes from 5% to about 20 for CA, IMHO.

There will be room for the best stuff, just gotta find afficianadoes who appreciate it and can afford to pay for it.

No other way to run this biz than depend on yourself and take the bull by the horns.

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Exactly, every level of product has a market, you just have to make it happen.

Your photos always look killer, props on your skills.

Abja Roots said:

The first part I absolutely agree with. The future will require that all products that come to market be regulated, tracked, taxed, etc...

It's the second part that I'm concerned about. If you're not vending your product or only vending a very small amount, then you should be able to grow as much as you like. It's these 4-12 plant limits that rub me the wrong way. I understand that if there's not limits then people can be diverting product to the black market, but is that a strong enough reason to keep you from growing 200 seeds in your back yard or basement? If I want to have a 20 lighter or greenhouse, that should be my choice.

It's much easier for the government to say you can only grow "x" number of plants, than to try to catch people diverting product to the black market. So that's what I think they'll do. It may take years to fight in the courts for the right to grow as much as you please as long as you're not vending it without the proper licenses etc...

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I wasn't saying I agree, it is just something that will be an issue for profitable growers in a legal or taxable medical market.

I agree that we should be able to start as many seeds as we would like in a legal atmosphere but it isn't realistic yet. They only constant in our world is the plant count, everything other aspect of growing has too many variables to control from the states perspective. Plant count is simple for the average joe to keep track of and easier for an officer to count if the need arises.

Another realistic question...

How many patients could you as a caregiver realistically support and stay in the plant count numbers already in the law? Why aren't we fighting to gain a larger number of patients and keep plant counts the same?

I can see where this would benefit both sides of the coin. Caregivers are able to gain revenue and keep meds in the system. The state would have a lower plant/patient ratio which you would think would make the MSP and Schuette happy.. Collective Bargaining?

Peace!

farmers market, bring your batch and trade more or better of less for mid grade ...no cash$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

money talks bullshit walks and most new consumers have no clue so there is your catch 22.

Anyone who was about it before legality unfolded, many low level dealers and consumers started to take advantage of the flood of weed coming in. Many of them are getting a parallel experience, i.e. same approximate quality, same approximate cost.

Many don't have the means or desire to discriminate but they have the capacity to do so if they are given the means.

Simple example, a friend was bitching about people moving stuff from other states of various quality, said it made getting new customers tougher. I suggested he find these people (new customers cultivated from friendships), and offer then a sample for free, but to do it in a specific manner.

Have them pull out a 20$ of their pot, and give a 20$ piece of yours. Tell them save each for a separate morning (day whatever the reset cycle they are on) and smoke on each through out the day and compare how your money is spent.

Dude doubled his sales almost immediately, of course the product has to be better but if you have something worth more money sometimes you have to teach the people you work with how to actualize it.

Hello from your next door neighbor I have wanted to retire in your lovely state I have family on my wife's side that lives in MI.

We are just starting down the road of Med MJ even though its been in place for year. I wish you guys luck and wanted to remind you at least you don't have our Med MJ laws here in IL.

IL is looking towards decriminalization with anything under 9 grams being a $100-200 fine. I think cook county did it last year if I remember it correctly.

Did MI decriminalize before or after you passed MED MJ?

I am assuming once you decriminalize things change. I am over 50 and I know many people would try weed or try it agin if you could remove the legal and societal stigma. Thats what decriminalization does in my mind. Not overnight of course by in a few years people start changing their minds and thier pocket books

Did you guys see increases in usage in MI after decriminalization?

To me the irony about this whole thing is thats all MJ smokers ever wanted was not to be looked at like criminals or freaks . When that happens really happens when society as a whole looks or rather doesn't look anymore when they see weed used in public. Thats when it becomes legal it cant happen without public acceptance now matter how powerful a person or company or even government is. When public outcry or lack of it happens things change everywhere in the world.

So I cant help but think that in some weird way legalization was always going to be the end game if you want to smoke your weed in peace. Once the ball started rolling down hill you no longer have control of it.

I am 100% on your side nothing good happens when big business gets ahold of anything including my chicken eggs.

On the supply and demand issue, economist consider weed to be inelastic. That is no matter the price,, well almost, demand does not change. So back before MMJ a grower could fetch $350-400 per ounce or around 5k per P with people always waiting for the next batch. And the area was flooded w mexican weed. So with the flood of growers and weed quality and low prices are the only way to move it.

Last but not least, as a grower if you can't succeed in your biz selling at $125/oz or $1600/lb you need to get out and soon.

growingcrazy said:

...Taxing will happen, inspections will happen, seed to sale tracking will happen, testing of product will happen. Why? It benefits and protects the people of our state, not just the growers.

A difference needs to be made between a home grower for personal and a boutique grower for income, whether "commercial" or not. For a home "boutique" grower, what happens when they pass 15k in income and the cottage law is enacted? At this point you would be required to have a production facility that is up to code, inspected and regulated(like a real business). Id like to hear discussion on that.. (back to my putting on the big boy pants comment earlier)...

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And how will these regulations benefit the growers, exactly? (especially when said regulations regulate most out of existence).

What exactly do you mean by “cottage law”? That which pertains to home produced and sold foods?

As it stands now, dispensaries are illegal. As such, those operating are doing so illegally. Pending legislation proposes changing this so that dispensaries are legal. (They [State & big business] of course want their cut now). These proposed changes began to surface when it appeared that legalization would be on the ballot come November. The powers that be became concerned that they would be cut out, should full recreational legalization occur. What they’re attempting now is a framework, for if and when, legalization is realized. This is why we see a rethinking on the subject of dispensaries: legalize them, tax the hell out of them, strip the caregiver model, enact a new “caregiver” model which allows for a select few to grow for — and only for — a dispensary.

None of the taxing (aside from a dispensary purchase), inspections, seed to sale tracking, etc., will apply to you. UNLESS you are specially licensed to grow for a dispensary. (You mentioned having a couple friends who’re owners; now’s the time to start schmoozing up to ‘em, if that’s the way you want to go).

So, in the end, a patient will be able to grow 12 plants for him or herself. Or purchase their medicine from a dispensary. There is no room in the legislation for boutique growers. If, as a patient, you are operating outside the scope of self-sufficiency — you will be breaking the law. You will not legally have the right to sell anything you produce.

Additionally, state specific laws, I suspect, will not necessarily be needed in regard to validating regulations. Federal law still supersedes state law. As such, we need look no further than the Commerce Clause. There will be, more or less, carte blanche for the impending regulations. Even at a Federal level — should we go legal nationally.

See Wickard v. Filburn & Gonzales v. Raich

And just for kicks, here’s a House Bill rife with proposed regulations to look over (this specific Bill not legalizing dispensaries, just an example of the "tracking"):

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/billintroduced/House/htm/2015-HIB-4827.htm

stasis said:

Started germination of almost all my stored seeds yesterday. Looking for gems. Some great genetics. I am super picky about pheno choice. Out of 40 regular beans, I usually flower or five, and keep one or two. Collecting dust in the fridge ain't helping them or myself.

Mahalos.

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I like that attitude. Best of luck in your search... And Great work!

Weird said:

money talks bullshit walks and most new consumers have no clue so there is your catch 22.

Anyone who was about it before legality unfolded, many low level dealers and consumers started to take advantage of the flood of weed coming in. Many of them are getting a parallel experience, i.e. same approximate quality, same approximate cost.

Many don't have the means or desire to discriminate but they have the capacity to do so if they are given the means.

Simple example, a friend was bitching about people moving stuff from other states of various quality, said it made getting new customers tougher. I suggested he find these people (new customers cultivated from friendships), and offer then a sample for free, but to do it in a specific manner.

Have them pull out a 20$ of their pot, and give a 20$ piece of yours. Tell them save each for a separate morning (day whatever the reset cycle they are on) and smoke on each through out the day and compare how your money is spent.

Dude doubled his sales almost immediately, of course the product has to be better but if you have something worth more money sometimes you have to teach the people you work with how to actualize it.

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Exactly. To say that there isn’t a marketplace for higher quality more expensive product is a mistake. It would be analogous to saying that there’s no marketplace for craft beer because there’s so much more cheaper beer available. Nonsense. People, with many products (beer a simple example), simply need to experience the difference. Then they can make an informed decision as to whether the price is worthy of the product; or the product is worthy of the price...

Chances are once your friend establishes some repeat sales for awhile with the new customers... they aren't likely to bat an eye if the price happens to bump up a bit.

Shmavis said:

And how will these regulations benefit the growers, exactly? (especially when said regulations regulate most out of existence).

They are not supposed to "help" the grower. An unregulated system for the last 30 years has done that. We are going to be regulated. This is fact, find a way to live with it. The cold hard truth here is that if you are making income at home, you need to step out of the basement.

What exactly do you mean by “cottage law”? That which pertains to home produced and sold foods?

Yes, goods sold to consumers for consumption produced in an non-inspected, unlicensed home facility. How many laws and regulations already exist that every other business model has to follow, that MMJ currently does not?

None of the taxing (aside from a dispensary purchase), inspections, seed to sale tracking, etc., will apply to you. UNLESS you are specially licensed to grow for a dispensary. (You mentioned having a couple friends who’re owners; now’s the time to start schmoozing up to ‘em, if that’s the way you want to go).

I will never drop product to a dispensary. I am a (real)farmer, I market my farm products to my farm share holders before the season has even started. This is my idea of the way legal sales should happen.

Seed to sale, inspections, and testing should happen to any product being used by anyone but the grower. This is the part where being a "boutique" grower for income and a personal grower needs a designation. You can't be both. If caregivers intend to make an income, they need to step up.

So, in the end, a patient will be able to grow 12 plants for him or herself. Or purchase their medicine from a dispensary. There is no room in the legislation for boutique growers. If, as a patient, you are operating outside the scope of self-sufficiency — you will be breaking the law. You will not legally have the right to sell anything you produce.

The law is going to change numerous times in the next 10 years. Some better and some worse. It is our job to make sure it goes our way. We will push for legislation to allow boutique growers, but not in a residential setting. I am looking forward to a weed B & B.

Additionally, state specific laws, I suspect, will not necessarily be needed in regard to validating regulations. Federal law still supersedes state law. As such, we need look no further than the Commerce Clause. There will be, more or less, carte blanche for the impending regulations. Even at a Federal level — should we go legal nationally.

See Wickard v. Filburn & Gonzales v. Raich

And just for kicks, here’s a House Bill rife with proposed regulations to look over (this specific Bill not legalizing dispensaries, just an example of the "tracking"):

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/billintroduced/House/htm/2015-HIB-4827.htm

"the times, they are a changing..."

How many pieces of legislation like that, or recommendations by the MSP have been actually used in the making of laws? How many of those recommendations instated close loop holes in our system to stop rampant illegal caregiver operations? The people of the state are the majority, not the caregivers.

I don't support legislation for unregulated big business, why would I support unregulated cannabis?

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Local caregivers are the people who are calling out dispensaries to the authorities. I know of two first hand accounts local to me of this happening(one easily searchable). The 10-15% of caregivers in the state dispensing are the same people jumping state to state chasing money protected by a MMJ law. This is the group the law is not intended to protect. This is the group citizens want shut down. Think of the whole picture, not just the caregivers perspective.

It is pretty widely known that caregivers operating within the law are protected and in some cases even commended. I have spoken with the prosecuting attorney of my county about future legislation, they have 0 issues with real caregivers, 72 plants or not.

growingcrazy said:

Why? It benefits and protects the people of our state, not just the growers.

They are not supposed to "help" the grower...

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Best get your argument in line. You wouldn’t want to be talking out both sides of your mouth.

Yes, goods sold to consumers for consumption produced in an non-inspected, unlicensed home facility. How many laws and regulations already exist that every other business model has to follow, that MMJ currently does not?

I think you fail to recognize the difference in scope.

Seed to sale, inspections, and testing should happen to any product being used by anyone but the grower. This is the part where being a "boutique" grower for income and a personal grower needs a designation. You can't be both. If caregivers intend to make an income, they need to step up.

I really do not understand what you’re saying here. Do you mean to say that otherwise caregivers shouldn’t be able to make an income? When the MMMA specifically allows for compensation?

How many pieces of legislation like that, or recommendations by the MSP have been actually used in the making of laws? How many of those recommendations instated close loop holes in our system to stop rampant illegal caregiver operations? The people of the state are the majority, not the caregivers.

The broader point seems, again, to be slipping away from you. Of course not all legislation is enacted, nor does all proposed legislation necessarily even see a vote. But the point is that these proposals are multiplying, because again, they’re setting up the framework for extreme regulations. And the people of the state (majority) voted in favor of caregivers. Schutte and others just want to subvert the will of the people for personal ideology (and most likely dollars).

I don't support legislation for unregulated big business, why would I support unregulated cannabis?

But you support big business, eh?

growingcrazy said:

Local caregivers are the people who are calling out dispensaries to the authorities...

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Sounds as though some can't handle the competition. What is the problem with those who are squealing? Can't they legitimately procure five patients... so the fault falls to dispensaries? To ask another way: if a caregiver is compliant and has established her or his allowance of patients, then what concern of theirs is a dispensary?

Thanks Guys. Maybe we can arrive at some conclusions that will help us. Triple D

medicalmj said:

Last but not least, as a grower if you can't succeed in your biz selling at $125/oz or $1600/lb you need to get out and soon.

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Not realistic, unless sun-grown

I believe the authorities are clearing-the-path for Corporate Cannabis. Getting rid of dispos, in advance of either a MI LEgalize vote, or Schedule change in Washington DC. Snyder signed an exclusive contract with the hapless Prairie Plant Systems outta Canada, to take effect at a Schedule change of cannabis at a federal level. 3 years ago He signed this..!!!!

Yet, still "on His desk" from the same month, sits the paperwork making Dispos legal. STILL IGNORED 3 years later.

125 zip, you MUST talking about the ghetto reggies floating around. Your a f n idiot to donate zips of quality meds for that rate. No wonder why the mi market is shit and every potential patient I speak to is all about what they get for free every month

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Shmavis said:

Best get your argument in line. You wouldn’t want to be talking out both sides of your mouth.

I am coming from a caregivers perspective and a citizen of our states perspective. Caregivers make up .2% of the population. We are going to either walk and talk both sides of the argument or caregivers are going to disappear. It is one sided thinking that has gotten us where we are currently.

Yes, goods sold to consumers for consumption produced in an non-inspected, unlicensed home facility. How many laws and regulations already exist that every other business model has to follow, that MMJ currently does not?

I think you fail to recognize the difference in scope.

We are providing a medical product to patients. Do you see from our governments point of view, medicine created in a basement that is untested and unregulated could be considered a health issue? Not all gardens are kept up to a medical standard. (The "cottage" law was brought up to me by an attorney. the statement was " if the home food industry has standards/inspections based on home income, why wouldn't a medicinal product?".)

Seed to sale, inspections, and testing should happen to any product being used by anyone but the grower. This is the part where being a "boutique" grower for income and a personal grower needs a designation. You can't be both. If caregivers intend to make an income, they need to step up.

I really do not understand what you’re saying here. Do you mean to say that otherwise caregivers shouldn’t be able to make an income? When the MMMA specifically allows for compensation?

Caregivers can and should attain compensation for medicine. The law was not intended for a caregiver to earn a living. Take any business model you can think of for a caregiver to earn a yearly salary, and you will find illegal activities that must be accomplished for those models to work. Unless you have a patients with unlimited budgets. This is the bases of argument our state uses to push caregivers out, and some caregivers just keep giving them ammo.

How many pieces of legislation like that, or recommendations by the MSP have been actually used in the making of laws? How many of those recommendations instated close loop holes in our system to stop rampant illegal caregiver operations? The people of the state are the majority, not the caregivers.

The broader point seems, again, to be slipping away from you. Of course not all legislation is enacted, nor does all proposed legislation necessarily even see a vote. But the point is that these proposals are multiplying, because again, they’re setting up the framework for extreme regulations. And the people of the state (majority) voted in favor of caregivers. Schutte and others just want to subvert the will of the people for personal ideology (and most likely dollars).

I would expect an extreme push, as they are aware only so much of what is requested will make it to law. We just need more people on the ground and less internet crusaders to make a difference in our cause. Schutte being voted back in is a good example of this.

I don't support legislation for unregulated big business, why would I support unregulated cannabis?

But you support big business, eh?

Zero. I could get into a very lengthy discussion about that comment.

I do 95% of my business within 10 miles of my home. All family grocery/spices/hard goods, building supplies. I own a farm that supplies vegetables and meat to local markets. I volunteer in my county. My money stays here.

Lets have that conversation.

Sounds as though some can't handle the competition. What is the problem with those who are squealing? Can't they legitimately procure five patients... so the fault falls to dispensaries? To ask another way: if a caregiver is compliant and has established her or his allowance of patients, then what concern of theirs is a dispensary?

When your community comes together and starts grouping caregivers into the same group as dispensary owners(drug dealers in their minds). That is when it creates a problem for caregivers.

I also should state that I do not agree with caregivers complaining to authorities about dispensaries. We have plenty of patients in our state that do not use dispensaries.

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I forgot to multi-qoute, sorry!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Not realistic, unless sun-grown - stasis

I just have to ask. What kind of production costs are you running at that $125/oz does not make profit? With all costs included(electricity,equipment maintenance,soil/amendments) tallied, I can still make $60/oz in labor costs at that price.(I get it if you would rather not. Also not saying its right)

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The risks and up front costs to me create a situation that making a pittance will not do. Period. I may not be the most economic grower, but not the worst on that. So, my costs are not super high.

Simple. 1600 a p helps only the middlemen

DemonTrich said:

125 zip, you MUST talking about the ghetto reggies floating around. Your a f n idiot to donate zips of quality meds for that rate. No wonder why the mi market is shit and every potential patient I speak to is all about what they get for free every month

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Examine your P&L closely and I'm sure that you're smart enough to make it work.

Sure you can make it work but I'm not growing to line others pockets with triple or more especially when the quality I put out shits on 99% of these overferted bullshit bales of hay

Things will be changing soon, and fast. If MI Legalize wins, or if and when MJ gets a schedule change (apparently to be decided by the end of July 2016.

Big Biz will move quick. Any change is welcome at this point. I tire of this shitstem.

This is almost worse than the CA market got, actually. The go-for-the-throat Detroit Mentality combined with all the guns out there make it a half-life of drudgery compared to CA life. Not a joyous place.. haha. I feel for, but do not trust people suffering economically, and most are nowadays.

I'd hate to have to hurt anyone, and complicate my life with legal issues. But, now I often conceal carry a fast, accurate gun with FULL TRAINING, in this joyless place.> Have spent thousands on this new hobby in equipment and Professional Training from the best in the area. Now have 2 that are excellent for me. Can run em with my eyes closed now. A skill that will last a lifetime, and maybe save it too. I won't eat lead again, like I did in a random shooting, '89 San Fran (at the hands of a 14 year old) on the night of the Loma Prieta EQ.

I will not be a victim in this predatory society. And look forward to getting back to nature this spring for the duration. Prob just run a hydro store and grow plants. And simplify. De-Anger-Fy.

^ Yes.

With all bullshit aside. We need to unite caregivers. Large scale meetings and discussions are the only way we are going to make it.

Stasis, you need to head north. We may not have the weather of norcal but we have some damn good people.

Totally - Up N is good for me, always has been. Can even surf Lake Mich sometimes.

Been banging my head on the wall for 2 years to get up farther than I got last year. (halfway). Looking at yet another situation to unfold in a week or two in the Nat'l Forest. If He isn;t a FLAKE too.

Yes, Up N people sometimes look out for each other and yet give each other lots of space.

Thx Guys.