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Hermaphrodite

G

guest123

so ,, what purpose will it serve to keep lines of intersexed plants????
so far im with sam on destroying all intersexed plants... they are just a pain ....
what benefit would they be to keep???
 
Grat3fulh3ad

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
The more I read up on the term intersex, I see that it is a broader term and includes all of the reproductive phenomenon discussed here except for pure dioecious species. However, I have always assumed that the plants ability to reproduce even in extremely unfavorable conditions, was an evolved survival trait... For example, an isolated population nearly wiped out by a lightning caused fire, or a massive hailstorm, and only one or two of the stronger females survive... the proclivity to produce pollen in times of stress ensures the survival of the population... It amazes me sometimes, when people discuss preserving the traits that make a strain hardy and survivable, yet almost in the same breath call this survival response a weakness... Sure plants that reverse easily should be culled, but every plant that can be stress reversed?
 
Tom Hill

Tom Hill

Active member
Veteran
Thanks a lot Ralph,

Good thing I asked for a viable one :D


I guess my point is that the flower(s?) in the pic is not representative of the cannabis reproductive system, you guys do agree with me on that I hope.

I believe the terms monoecious & dioecious are used to define the reproductive method of the species. What then do we call the rouge plants. "Intersexed" plants from within this dioecious species would seem most correct.

As far as whats worth keeping etc, define keeping. A great percentage of very popular clones have intersexual traits to some degree. Some of the worlds best lines, Thai, African etc have high percentages of intersex plants. Should we attempt to breed this out of these populations? Maybe, if it does not conflict with our ultimate goal. Should we run from them like they're the plague? Naw man, too much would be lost.
 
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KingRalph

KingRalph

Active member
ay definitely Tom, i do agree. wasn't postin that to prove or disprove anythin, just wanted to show it ;) i wouldn't consider the plant at the point of doing that a hermaphrodite either. all plants have the survival mechanism we speak of that comes out as a hermaphroditic tendancy in times of duress, so to me, a hermaphrodite is one at the point of no return, so to speak. fooling around with my feminized seeds has clued me in a great deal to the different traits they can exhibit of these underlying hermaphrodite tendancies that seem to just be at a varying degree of recessiveness in all plants waiting to be brought out for survival.

so like you say Tom, i wouldn't consider any plant that does what my pic showed intersexed, as i mentioned, no pollen sacs were made during it's lifecycle. on other feminizeds it's mentioned that sometimes a single male pollen sac will sprout at the onset of flowering, but no more, only female flowers. i wouldn't call that intersexed. only when it's that, from the start male and female flower sprouting would i consider a plant a true hermaphrodite, from birth... intersexed dioecious :p of course that can happen later in flower too but usually only from stress... which i would call that a hermaphrodite, but not really technically, as a clone of that plant unstressed wouldn't revert to that if unstressed... but would easily, and so such a plant shouldn't be kept as it's too close to being a true hermaphrodite. neither should the true hermaphrodite of course.

personally, for making feminizeds i would not use a plant that is easily made to give male flowers, the more resilient to that trait the better an i think the stronger and less likely the feminizeds will be to changing then also, as the trait then seems to have a more recessive level. but i'm just a hack haha i'll keep listening to you fellas ;) peace n green thumbs guys, an thanks for the info! :joint:
 
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OG bub

OG bub

~Cannabis-Resinous~
ICMag Donor
Veteran
mabey Im alone on this, mabey not.....

If a female shows nanners, its a herm....
beit alotta nannaers or a little... if they are there, they are there.. and its a herm..
I will not justify a "little Hermie"... its still showin male sex traits, on a female dominant plant.... even if just a little..

I dont think any of us are in a position to say, any specific line of cannabis that shows a herm of any extent, is not worthy of its contributions....
but in my projects, a herm of any magnatude, does not belong in my breedwork. but thats just one of my requirements of my selections.... other folks may have a reason to breed with such plants..... Ill leave those ones, to them!

I have however, grown a good few plants I wouldnt mind having back fer headsmoke, that produced some nanners. lotsa folks have had these types thru their gardens... no big deal imo..


the most extreme case of hermin I seen, was Early Durban from TFD. while the majority of plants were great, Ive had 2 specific plants that had entire nodes flower male clusters, and other nodes on the same branch bloom female flowers... I couldnt call the plants dominant to male or female, they were crazy!, only time I seen anything like it!


Im just wonderin, fer folks that dont consider a "lil herm", a herm, what is it..?


its true tho, that for every plant, there is a purpose.
but not every plant has a purpose in my garden..

Peace folks, bub.
 
G

guest123

well from what ive seen if u keep the intersexed plants in a line ,they will always appear ... for me thats bad ,, how can i tend a large amount of plants ,,, hundreds , and watch every female aswell , its impossible .. and not what i require ...
i have found a few lines that will not reverse , sure some of my favourites are suseptable , and id only ever grow them whre they can be watched and in smaller quantities , but thats a pain in the arse wouldnt u agree ////////???/,, id be a lot happier if they were hermie proof also .... it can be done ,,,
seems the only thing served by an intersexed plant is the plant itself ,, it can reproduce .. man does not seem too have an advantage with them ... the product is seeded often heavily , the seeds serve no purpose as the carry the same trait ... if u sell that product or share it ,, then more folks grow intersexed plants ...
ive seen this sort of thing totally ruin many crops and waste a lot of time ... for what?????? yes id happily kill lines that contain hermie traits ,, and have done many times ,, how can i grow large amounts of plants otherwise ... //////????
 
OG bub

OG bub

~Cannabis-Resinous~
ICMag Donor
Veteran
wallyduck said:
seems the only thing served by an intersexed plant is the plant itself ,, it can reproduce .. man does not seem too have an advantage with them ... the product is seeded often heavily , the seeds serve no purpose as the carry the same trait ... if u sell that product or share it ,, then more folks grow intersexed plants ...
ive seen this sort of thing totally ruin many crops and waste a lot of time ...
Click to expand...


agreed.
a hermie today is a hermie tomorrow!... so to speak..lol
 
G

guest123

Grat3fulh3ad said:
So, wally... are you saying that no plant that can be made to reverse should be bred with?
Click to expand...
nope ,, not made too ,, but if it does it for itself , then do u have a choice ???
we are trying to make a plant grow for our purposes arent we?? then if we have a choice ,, why not grow plants that do not change sex /// when u grow a large amount , how can u do this with plants that choose what they do ...
id rather grow ones i know will not change sex ....
 
G

guest123

honestly ive been surprised how many folks say ,, ohh it produces a few bananas later in flower ,, well is that good enough ????
i dont think so ,, ive never kept one that did ......
 
G

Guest

As I said before, both my chemdog D and my strawberry d produce a very occasional nanner very late in flowering but both are definitely keepers. I have quite a few other strains that never produce nanners but IMO the SD and the CDD are the best weed that I grow. An infertile nanner does not a hermie make.
 
Herbalistic

Herbalistic

Herbal relaxation...
Veteran
Hola!!!

I agree with you wally that these plants shouldnt be used for breeding!!! Maybe you could cross it for your personal consumption, but not for commercial or any widening!!!!

But, these plants that do hermie with couple nanners at the end of the flowering and are sterile can be growed & used for personal consumption..

But to use herming plant of strain that normally doesnt hermie for a cross is big nana for me to!!!
 
Grat3fulh3ad

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
wallyduck said:
nope ,, not made too ,, but if it does it for itself , then do u have a choice ???
we are trying to make a plant grow for our purposes arent we?? then if we have a choice ,, why not grow plants that do not change sex /// when u grow a large amount , how can u do this with plants that choose what they do ...
id rather grow ones i know will not change sex ....
Click to expand...
Ahh... therein lies the rub, though... I agree if a plant does so on it's own, then you have no choice. I'm definately not advocating breeding with hermies.
I am also agreeing with everyone tht true herm are very rare.

I have no problem with selection for desirable traits and selection away from negative ones, In fact that's what a good breeding program is. However, I find if to be a huge load of bullshit when genetic preservation is discussed, and the same people who want to preserve the genetic diversity that is naturally present in the species, but not preserve this survival mechanism. Plants don't choose what they do, they only react to the environmental stimuli that we give them.

What I am specificly talking about are lines that only produce pollen in a survival situation. Every female cannabis plant out there has the ability to produce male flowers under the right conditions, even if those conditions are being covered with ionic silver.

It would obviously be foolish to use plants that reverse under normal conditions or under very little stress as breeding stock... By the Same token, IMHO It would be absolutely foolish to be rid of a high quality parent, just because Poor growers can stress a couple of male flowers out of it.

Once again, wally, I'm not talking about plants that reverse naturally or easily. I'm talking about the closet grower who has light shining on a branch through a keyhole through their entire grow, and makes a few male flowers. We should cull everything associated with a specific line, because the unlearned or unskilled can reverse it?
 
Grat3fulh3ad

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Rudedude said:
As I said before, both my chemdog D and my strawberry d produce a very occasional nanner very late in flowering but both are definitely keepers. I have quite a few other strains that never produce nanners but IMO the SD and the CDD are the best weed that I grow. An infertile nanner does not a hermie make.
Click to expand...
:yes: :yes:
 
Grat3fulh3ad

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
wallyduck said:
but thats a pain in the arse wouldnt u agree ////////???/,, id be a lot happier if they were hermie proof also .... it can be done ,,,

man does not seem too have an advantage with them ...

yes id happily kill lines that contain hermie traits ,, and have done many times ????

we are trying to make a plant grow for our purposes arent we??

seems the only thing served by an intersexed plant is the plant itself
Click to expand...

Like I posted in the Genetic Preservation thread...
Grat3fulh3ad said:
I will agree that we need to maximize the diversity of the species... To a point...
It is somewhat harmful to the species to keep plants within the gene pool that would be unable to survive and reproduce without our intervention... To some degree it is not harmful, In that, occasionally Traits desired by the grower might not be the most survivable in nature...
Loosing a portion of the gene pool can be a great tragedy, and most of the time is... but occasionally the species can benefit from a culling of weakness... Most often this occurs naturally, survival of the fittest, natural selection and what not... Sometimes it occurs in the Lab, Human selection such as selecting away from hermaphroditic plants...
It is absolutely crucial, however, that within each landrace or inbred line, a large representitive cross section remains 'banked'... And in that vein of thought, there really needs to be different types of seedmakers... Breeders, who make selections and/or hybrids to achieve specific goals... And, Librarians To maintain the fullness and diversity of individual landraces without making selections, and using large populations...
Click to expand...

Because when we adapt plants to suit human uses, we remove much from the species.

Simplest example is the teosinte/corn thing.
Man's selection away from undesirable traits(read traits that make the plant inconvenient) and selection toward desirable ones(useful to man), has created a species that is unable to survive on its own.

Of course I love corn and am glad that they did it, but wouldn't it be beneficial to science and agriculture to still have access to some of those intermediate lines?

Do we really want to take cannabis down the same path? If we do then how far? Should no effort be made to preserve any traits which may be linked to the survival mechanism of stress related reversal?

As I've said before... I am in favor of taking a few steps down the path... Plants which produce both male and female flower parts under normal conditions should be selected away from for sure... Frailties should be selected away from as well...

Lines should be developed which have no chance to pass the trait along, but with so many of the most potent plants carrrying a reversal potential, should it really be culled from the gene pool altogether?
 
G

Guest

Not to appear defensive as a closet grower that gets a few nanners on a couple strains but just about every pic I've seen of the Strawberry D has the occasional nanner and most people growing the chemdog d get the occasional nanner too. I don't think it's my enviorment as I've had experience with quite a few strains and only a very few strains get the occasional nanner. My panama red does get a few too. Interestingly enough, I just harvested a Panama Red x (Strawberry diesel x doubledog) and there wasn't a single banana. I'm not a breeder but I don't think that I understand not breeding with a strain like chemdog because it might throw out the occasional harmless nanner. Sure, it might pass on that trait but I think the other traits that it'll pass down are the more important ones. Would I be disapointed if I bought a pack of seeds that grew weed as good as chemdog d but had an occasional nanner? Not on your fucking life!
 
CannaBullies

CannaBullies

Member
Very interesting thread.I went outside to check on my Strawberry D females and the male I was going to use for a few crosses and found hairs starting to grow on the Male.


Thanks for the link Head.
 
Grat3fulh3ad

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
In this case Rudedude, I think that the survival mechanism is responding to the stress of not being pollinated... A 'last ditch effort' to pass along its gene by letting loose a bit of pollen, to perhaps land on a slightly longer lived female, even though it cannot make seed itself... You don't sound defensive at all, to me... just like you're trying to make a point... And I hope I don't sound like I'm pushing an Agenda, I'm really more interested in simply furthering the discussion...


Edit: Great pic canna... you don't see that too often.
 
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G

guest123

mmm i dont think im alone in thinkin havent we already debated the hermie thing ?????????
a hermie is a intersexed plant that u should not breed with ..
wow it may be a clone that many have shared and enjoyed , never the less it is a hermie and should not reproduce ....
perhaps this will stop the huge influx of sposed awesome clones that become renownowned for potency ,, u can get that from a clone that will not turn hermie aswell ...
a hermie is a hermie ,,, didnt we already agree on that ?????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
G

guest123

i have to say ,, and apologise to many in saying ,, some folks have never smoke decent herb . a bit like some have never had good sex ...
try a bit of life before u decide its alll that ..or this ... u can get good weed from non hermie weed , why try otherwise ... its just a waste of space and time ....
 
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