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Breeding for beginners

G

Guest

Azra3l said:
Edit: but we're drifting from the subject, so if Glasspackedbowl want his breeding for beginners back, let somebody erase my posts in this thread
hey boss dont be like that, its not cool, we are all putting together makeing this tread a good read for beginers like me. k? :joint:

Belive it or not for the pass two days i have been walking around with that chart in my top pocket i hope the information on it is corect.


I notice something elece that should be a help too...............

If you look at the chart you would see that from the top right corner to the bottom left all carry the same gene "code" as the F1 generation yet there are F2s so if i were to backcross with these or even use these in my breeding it would be like i am still useing F1 genetics.

So the F3 would really be F2 :yoinks: Get me?

These "no-no" plants to breed with are 4/16 of the F2 gen. :badday:
CHAAAAAA but there is only one way to tell them apart from the other12/16 of good ones, thay will be a 50/50 mix of the P1s or easier put, look like the F2 gen.

What makes it even more harder is that there will be five more types of gene "codes" that look like the F2s but can be used to cross with. Assumeing that you are looking for a plant that is a 50/50 mix of the P1s

I think its safe to say that in makeing a cross you should look for a plant that phenos lean more towards the mum or dad just to make certian that there are no resesive genes in there hidding.

Azra3l now your talking my simple language can you please explane the differance between heterozygous and homozygous i am with Nepthaze i think its important that we know the differance.
I know its the difference between if two alleles are coding the same protein or not but WTH does this mean? :fsu:
Does this make the traits easer to pass on?????? What? :confused:
 
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G

Guest

It was in the first post by glasspackedblowl all along

we will see that each individual inherits one allele per gene of the mother and one of the father. Both alleles may be equal or they may differ. In the first case the individual would be homozygous, in the latter heterozygous. MENDEL did already mark genes (which he called 'Anlagen' (German), meaning 'hereditary factors') by letters (see above). Here, too, international conventions do nowadays exist that fix the way, in which these letters are written. Nevertheless different terminologies are common in the different disciplines of genetics. Drosophila researchers , for example, use other terms than bacterial researchers.

But let us start with a fundamental rule. A dominant allele is marked with a capital, a recessive one with the respective lowercase letter. So if a plant with red flowers is crossed with a plant with white flowers and red is dominant (white is accordingly recessive), it cannot be operated with the letters r (for red) and w (for white), but the red flowers have to be marked R and the white ones r. Since two alleles exist for each gene in each individual, the homozygous forms RR and rr and the heterozygous Rrexist.

Homozygous individuals (RR) cannot be distinguished from heterozygous ones (Rr) in dominant-recessive hereditary paths. To be able to recognize their true type the hybrids are crossed with the recessive parent (rr). This is called a back-cross. Homozygous individuals (RR x rr) produce only one type of offspring (Rr), while the offspring of heterozygous individuals (Rr x rr) is half Rr and half rr.

Since it cannot easily be distinguished between a homozygous and a heterozygous state (RR or Rr), it is instead differentiated between phenotype (appearance) and genotype (the allele combination). A certain phenotype can thus have several (two in the case of a dominant phenotype in a hereditary path of two alleles per gene) genotypes.


Homozygous (RR) - Breeds true for a trait.
Heterozygous (Rr) - Has a recessive gene in there somewhere.

:dueling:
 

glasspackedbowl

Medical Test grower. Inquire within...
Veteran
Bump

Bump

HOpe everyone takes a read of this every month or so. As you learn more makes sence. :yoinks: :wave:
 

-VT-

Voluptuous Trichomes
Veteran
Great thread GPD

Great thread GPD

Thanks for the work on this...and imploring contributing members to keep it simple :D I've read it a few times and will have to read a few posts several times lol....
I love the chart (I'm a visual learner I suppose)....
Someone asked a question I've thought about for sometime....(# plants required for breeding)....I think I read 20 or so would suffice.

I maintain a plant count....now...if I understand this correctly....the smaller the plant count....the more time it will take to stabilize desired traits.....as in more runs to find parents expressing traits I want....

Is it plausible to undertake a project and go through selections over a longer period of time with say....4 plants per round? Or is it highly superior to fill a room with multiple parents expressing a particular trait? Damn...I'm high and having a hard time "articulating" this question :D

Do small runs (the aggregate of many small runs and selecting as I go) result in inferior results???

Thanks in advance

peace

-VT-
 

glasspackedbowl

Medical Test grower. Inquire within...
Veteran
-VT- said:
Thanks for the work on this...and imploring contributing members to keep it simple :D I've read it a few times and will have to read a few posts several times lol....
I love the chart (I'm a visual learner I suppose)....
Someone asked a question I've thought about for sometime....(# plants required for breeding)....I think I read 20 or so would suffice.

I maintain a plant count....now...if I understand this correctly....the smaller the plant count....the more time it will take to stabilize desired traits.....as in more runs to find parents expressing traits I want....

Is it plausible to undertake a project and go through selections over a longer period of time with say....4 plants per round? Or is it highly superior to fill a room with multiple parents expressing a particular trait? Damn...I'm high and having a hard time "articulating" this question :D

Do small runs (the aggregate of many small runs and selecting as I go) result in inferior results???

Thanks in advance

peace

-VT-
Funny you asked. I just asked the local breeding expert and JPL says this about a good cross of IBL's and how many f1's it takes.
ou should be able to find a good one in 10-15 seeds,if not then it's either bad luck or bad seeds.

No I see no problem doing small groupings of 5 plants. I have noticed that dominate pheno traits/description of buds transfurs in the cross. Thats why when you use a plant that can hermie then it shows it far too much like Nelvills haze and clone/female only seeds/strains. So If you pick 2 plants with good traits like bud size or vigor or potency or taste those good things of each will show up in 1 in 4 seeds. That extra seed I added increases the chance to get 2 of the same pheno or 2 good but different one. As multiple males makes for a bit of genetic diversity adding help to not hit dead genetic ends by back crossing for ever. Some times that first plant from the IBL seed in the cross has an issue that isnt diserable and is dominate and just cant be breed totally out again.

Hope that makes sence. I try to proof read here so I make sure my point are clear and make proper sence.
 

Elevator Man

Active member
Mentor
Veteran
I'm encountering exactly this problem currently in my 'Flo Breeding Question' thread in DJ Short's forum - I'm working on some Flo F2s as my first foray into (deliberate) breeding, and am getting some variation amongst the offspring - like some have purple stems, some green, some have long leaves, some oval, some have bright green leaves, some are dark, etc.

I'm specifically trying to reproduce a particular pheno I liked, and lost the only clone of - I did make a bunch of seeds with it though. I used two different males to test how various traits might be passed down and am observing the differences produced. The problem is, I'm so limited by space that I'm only able to grow out maybe 20 seedlings max - already culled them down to ten.

I'm already realising that having two males massively complicates matters, so I've decided for the F3s to only use one male from one batch of the current F2s - i.e. eliminate one male-derived line completely for pollen parents. I'm not trying to breed a new strain here, just learn how to pick the right parents, and produce seeds that will reliably produce this particualr pheno more times than not.
 

-VT-

Voluptuous Trichomes
Veteran
After reading this a few more times....with limited plant numbers, I am thinking F2's are tough to get good results from (without luck and several runs due to limited plant count) ....then the talk of alleles and learning the difference between phenotypes and genotypes....seems more and more like a crap shoot lol....boy, I sure do I have a newfound respect for the folks that have made fine crosses....heck, any crosses lol

Think I'll avoid polyhybrids also....that's for the pros....

If a parent has hermie tendencies (is it a trait?)....can it be bred out by backcrossing to an offspring or F1 that is stabile? (something tells me there is a long thread I need to find on that subject)
 

glasspackedbowl

Medical Test grower. Inquire within...
Veteran
im going out but I will address these issues soon!
Walking to store for butter to make some canna butter so while its culdren bubbles I can post reply to the best of my ability.

I just wanna say thats for the respect I got fro ya'll. This is what I do grow and teach. Makes me feel great. I wanna run for president in the future lol. Vote for me. You know how ill do it! J/k brb and will figure this shit out. untill then rock on guys and girls! :woohoo:
 
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glasspackedbowl

Medical Test grower. Inquire within...
Veteran
Elevator Man said:
I'm encountering exactly this problem currently in my 'Flo Breeding Question' thread in DJ Short's forum - I'm working on some Flo F2s as my first foray into (deliberate) breeding, and am getting some variation amongst the offspring - like some have purple stems, some green, some have long leaves, some oval, some have bright green leaves, some are dark, etc.

I'm specifically trying to reproduce a particular pheno I liked, and lost the only clone of - I did make a bunch of seeds with it though. I used two different males to test how various traits might be passed down and am observing the differences produced. The problem is, I'm so limited by space that I'm only able to grow out maybe 20 seedlings max - already culled them down to ten.

I'm already realising that having two males massively complicates matters, so I've decided for the F3s to only use one male from one batch of the current F2s - i.e. eliminate one male-derived line completely for pollen parents. I'm not trying to breed a new strain here, just learn how to pick the right parents, and produce seeds that will reliably produce this particualr pheno more times than not.

Then you wanna use one male with the best traits. Then pick a few females that are the pheno you want and pollenate them all with so batches of seed by the lower branches. Then you can keep that select pheno type and keep a few other genes.
 

HawGods

Member
so say i have the mom of my dreams ..how would i know what the dad of my dreams would be like are look like... u know i dont just want to pick that male cause hes male ..i want a dude that is cool..




oh i have never grown out a male before, i know that u look for all the good traits u want but not the sure on male.. What if the moms F class like 1 2 3 is not known ..?? But she is a champ had for years mass appeal clone only..Say the flavor i want to mix with her i have 30 beans to pop to look for the Father do u think thats enough..?? thanks for this Thread Glass ...my brain has not done this much in awhile..sorry if the spelling is off..thanks again .. :canabis:
 
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raygun

Active member
so to stablize a particular f1 pheno AKA- the killer that you have kept.

so to stablize a particular f1 pheno AKA- the killer that you have kept.

Great info!!!
:chin: So if you had an F1 cross and found a particular pheno you liked. instead of crossing it with an f1 male of same genetics you outcrossed to say a known male that expresses wanted positive traits like a larger yeild (annac NYCD male if you have seen the pict.!!! Don't know how much it passes but Verites orange diesel looks like solid colas) Or like Deep Chunk that really dominates the growth structure possibly making denser buds or closer internodes.
Then using that male to inprove that specific f1 clone and using those seeds to find offspring that is similar to your f1-clone and cross those males similar in growth structure to your f1-clone. Esentially you would have a 50/50 male generation to chose from and then you can cube your f1-clone with those sucessive generations to get somting similar to your original f-1 clone.

Basically what brothers Grimm did to get C-99 but most of us are using bag seed that was seed bought in a bag not found in a bud. :biglaugh:

A problem with incrossing the f1 generations to each other and then trying to get back to a stable seed form from the orig p1 is the tend to express resessive traits. Hence lots of pure bread dogs have common problems due to inbreeding. So wouldn't the fastest way to stablize/preserve your f1 clone be the way C-99 was made? especially for those who are limited in #'s to chose from?
This is assuming you do not have the orig p1 male from that f1-clone.

I am in no way an authority on this subject just a closet grower looking to preserve and expand my gene pool. :wave:
~raygun~
for your viewing pleasure my Sour bubble Bx1

 
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glasspackedbowl

Medical Test grower. Inquire within...
Veteran
HawGods said:
so say i have the mom of my dreams ..how would i know what the dad of my dreams would be like are look like... u know i dont just want to pick that male cause hes male ..i want a dude that is cool..
oh i have never grown out a male before, i know that u look for all the good traits u want but not the sure on male.. What if the moms F class like 1 2 3 is not known ..?? But she is a champ had for years mass appeal clone only..Say the flavor i want to mix with her i have 30 beans to pop to look for the Father do u think thats enough..?? thanks for this Thread Glass ...my brain has not done this much in awhile..sorry if the spelling is off..thanks again .. :canabis:
yes 30 is plenty. GO for it I did and made a great strain called Power skunk.
 

glasspackedbowl

Medical Test grower. Inquire within...
Veteran
raygun said:
Great info!!!
:chin: So if you had an F1 cross and found a particular pheno you liked. instead of crossing it with an f1 male of same genetics you outcrossed to say a known male that expresses wanted positive traits like a larger yeild (annac NYCD male if you have seen the pict.!!! Don't know how much it passes but Verites orange diesel looks like solid colas) Or like Deep Chunk that really dominates the growth structure possibly making denser buds or closer internodes.
Then using that male to inprove that specific f1 clone and using those seeds to find offspring that is similar to your f1-clone and cross those males similar in growth structure to your f1-clone. Esentially you would have a 50/50 male generation to chose from and then you can cube your f1-clone with those sucessive generations to get somting similar to your original f-1 clone.

Basically what brothers Grimm did to get C-99 but most of us are using bag seed that was seed bought in a bag not found in a bud. :biglaugh:

A problem with incrossing the f1 generations to each other and then trying to get back to a stable seed form from the orig p1 is the tend to express resessive traits. Hence lots of pure bread dogs have common problems due to inbreeding. So wouldn't the fastest way to stablize/preserve your f1 clone be the way C-99 was made? especially for those who are limited in #'s to chose from?
This is assuming you do not have the orig p1 male from that f1-clone.


I dont see why that wouldnt work too bad. It would certinly do the job
 
D

daisy jane

Thanks for the post glasspacked. I remember learning about Mendel my sophomore year in high school in chemistry. Hah, it brought back some memories. Quality post :D
 

DimeBag65

You will not be forgotten
Veteran
Great thread GPB, iv been reading and rereading this thread for a while, its helped alot to determine what im looking for in a male and female for my ventures.

Great facts to keep on hand.

im sure ill be back around to ask questions later in the season as things progress in my garden...

Dime
 

glasspackedbowl

Medical Test grower. Inquire within...
Veteran
Glad you liked it. I feel compelled to help share all I know and find to be true about growing this fine plant/tree. I was thinking about that the other day. I think that pot plants are like the tree of plants. With a slight advantage they should be able to get as big as any tree. Think of the possibility's!~!~!~!~! :canabis: :canabis: :canabis: :canabis:
 

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