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Heat/chemical changes?

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spicecowboy

Active member
Many of us use a bit of temperature or even heat to press our hash, either coming from the pressure with handpressing, or from an additional source.

In many of the traditional hash producing countries heat is used to press the powder and get it "into shape".

What I would like to know is:

Why isn´t this apparently not a problem for the trichome powder, but an absolute do not for bud?

I mean we all know that heat degrades THC, - don´t we?

And what kind of chemical changes do actually accur while the hash is heated?

I would be happy about an anwer that could bring a bit more light into this.

After two small bonghits of my incredibly tasty bubblehash I was dreaming a bit about the art of hashmaking, and the fact that it´s a never ending learning process,- which is actually a good thing.

This particular hash( 73 micron bubble) turned out brownish golden, even after being pressed, not as oily as others before, but it bubbles and has a great taste,-... oh my,- and the potency is good also :rasta:

Different type of plant, different trichome texture, different hash,- what a complex and enlightening artform!



spice
 
Chiefsmokingbud

Chiefsmokingbud

Slap-A-Ho tribe
Veteran
I do know at combustion temp, THC turns from an acid to an alcohol which allows you to metabolize it (smoking). Negative problems happen when THC is exposed to 275+ (below combustion temp) degrees for a period of time, that Does slowly degrade the thc. The optimum temp to Decarb THC is around 212 degrees (boiling point of water). If THC is exposed to a higher temperature for long periods of time, you will be transforming THC into CBN thus degrading it and giving more of a couchlock effect.
 
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drmota

Member
ok chief, i dont know what you just said but i use a little heat ( frying pan or iron ) and i have found the any decomp is just exterior and it helps preserve the vast majority of my hash. for long term storage and that it also seems tro taste and smoke better after it cures for a while. imo.
 
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dozer

Member
I've just been offered a small booklet writen by Laurence Cherniak and Alan Dronkers, where they describe a way of curing hash by puting it in jars at 37ºC for upto 3 month, burping the jars every 3 days or so. After that they hand press it in balls.

I had allready wondered how something like this would work out when I studied a little about alternative ways to cure cannabis (water cure, sweat cure, fermentation cure, sun cure, etc.). Usually the logic behind this methods (except water cure) is to keep the fresh harvested weed at high enough temps so that mold can't settle (32ºC+) and with enough moisture so that bacteria can do their work decomposing clorofill and sugars. Well I wonder if something like this would have a good impact in the quality of the hash. What Chermiak recomends seems a little extreme, 37ºC for 3 month looks like way too much but I'm curious about this. So much time at that high temp I supose some THC is going to be lost but maybe one can get a finished product that most resembles traditional hash from traditional hash making countries.

For example, in morocco they harvest in the end of Summer, extract in the cold winter and then store the powdered resin for many months before pressing. When stored that resin is going to get the heat from the Summer season, curing it in a similar way to Cherniaks proposed method, so maybe there is some logic in what he claims.

Of course that hash with this kind of cure is going to loose the floral fresh aromas that we are used to in our home-made hash but I bet it will have a deep hashy aroma like the traditional hashes like the moroc.

Has anyone tried anything like this? I might try it if I have the chance.

.
 
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gordonliu

Member
Let me clarify one thing:

THC is not an acid. the molecules of THC in your hash oil are the exact same molecules floating around inside your body. No chemical change has taken place. "smoking" hash oil, hash, and even bud (dry) results in a certain percentage of the THC just being vaporized/boiled and therefore enters your lungs unchanged. (there are obviously a ton of molecules that DID get chemically changed by smoking, but those are not the molecules of interest.)

Some people claim that THC found in fresh bud is bound as THC-A. This is actually the way OPIATES are found in poppies. This is likely because the plant cells need the THC to be water soluble (Cells use water as a solvent) so that the molecules can be shuttled around inside of said cell. when you let your bud dry and cure, you are allowing the THC-A to degrade into THC by decarboxylation (most biological organic acids are carboxylic acids, which is essentially a molecule with CO2 attached to the end).



Pressing Hash:

keep in mind, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. This is just a guess, based on what composes hash, and what not.

When you press hash at elevated temps, you are cracking open trichomes and allowing the inner oil to ooze out. the oil acts as a "glue" that will kind of stick the whole conglomeration of trichomes together.

at the same time, this newly "liberated" oil from inside of the broken trichomes becomes OXIDIZED (think of "toasting" your molecules, they dont burn or break down, but they change), and changes color from a kind of golden color to an OPAQUE brown color. this happens due to heat and exposure to oxygen.
 
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Chiefsmokingbud

Chiefsmokingbud

Slap-A-Ho tribe
Veteran
Well i've always understood it to be THCA an acid
Sam_Skunkman said:
Unbelievable, that anyone is so ignorant they would recomend eating raw Cannabis. If there is any advantage I am missing?

Truthman,


What temp do you think decarboxylation takes place at? Over 200F!! What are the "enzymes" that do this in the human body?


The truth of course is that unheated, non-decarbozylated raw eaten Cannabis will only give you a small amout of the potential high. Try eating the same amout that has been decarboxylated and you will see.
Also eating raw Cannabis will give most people gas, you will get burps that taste just like the herb.

When herb is grown virtually all of the THC is in the form of THCA, even after drying and long storage the vast majority is in the form of THCA.

If you are naive enough to listen to the advice to eat Cannabis raw at least try the same with Cannabis that has been decarbozylated say a cookie baked with the same amount of the same herb. Then comment.

-SamS
Click to expand...

"THC usually accumulates at a quite a low level in the fresh leaves of C. sativa and is shown to be derived artificially from the acidic cannabinoid Δ1-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA) by non-enzymatic decarboxylation during storage and smoking" (and this says it decarbs through curing/storage)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1952348
If you can make heads or tails of the rest of it
 
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gordonliu

Member
You are correct sir, although the truth is that there is THC, albeit the ratio of THCA:THC is anywhere from 6:1 (stuff from Mediterranean) to 0.5:1 (stuff from india) with THC% averaging around 10% (this info is from a related article to the one you posted).

It is interesting to note: The fact that THCA is so unstable is actually widely known, albeit in a different manner. It takes about a week or so to dry some weed, and a week or 2 to cure it. this means that THCA has a half life in air at room temp of something like a week. if it was a more stable molecule, it might have taken humans a lot longer to figure out that you can smoke this stuff, because it would take much longer to cure in order for the bud to have noticeable affects.

similarly, if THCA was a more stable molecule, analysis of Urine (THC) and analysis of plant material/resin (THCA) would yield conflicting data that would confuse researchers. the fact that THCA is just unstable enough to form THC in the plant/resin, but stable enough to remain present after several weeks has prevented people from thinking we get high from THCA!

it brings up an interesting idea: whenever I purge my BHO I see bubbles wayyyy beyond the point where all of the butane that is possible to remove has been removed. perhaps this is CO2. perhaps cooking BHO (under inert atmosphere) will increase the potency!


This is unrelated to your reply, but related to the quote that you posted:

dude, Cannabis plants did not evolve knowing about people who smoke and cook, they evolved knowing about birds and animals that EAT RAW CANNABIS PLANTS. CANNABINOIDS ARE A DEFENSE AGAINST ANIMALS THAT EAT THE PLANT!!!


A+

if you have any questions about that paper, shoot, Ill see what I can do.
 
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Hashmasta-Kut

Hashmasta-Kut

honey oil addict
Veteran
i am pretty sure the terpenes gas off in those bubbles you are seeing bro.. maybe not purely terpenes, but largely at least i think
 
A

alpinestar

in response to the idea that you cannot eat raw weed and get high, I say you are wrong

Ive eaten whole raw bud before and it hit me like a wall

thc needs no conversion or heat added to it for it to work. once it has turned into usable thc in the trichome on the bud (drying and curing), its good to go.

if you don't believe me, take some dried up bud and eat it (I chewed it for a good 30 minutes with fruit flavored gum and swallowed it all - much easier than eating just bud).

you don't need heat to get high
 
Chiefsmokingbud

Chiefsmokingbud

Slap-A-Ho tribe
Veteran
Yeah i also agree the extra bubbles after the butane is probably terpenes. From what i remember there are about 200 terpenes in resin
 
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gordonliu

Member
if you have some dank ass 80% THC BHO, that had initially been composed of 40% THCA before it was purged and stored, then your BHO was actually about 5% CO2 by weight.

as soon as those CO2 molecules fall off the phenyl ring, they will blast out of the oil as gas.

keep in mind also, Terpenes actually boil at pretty high temperatures. the "prototypical" terpene, isoprene, boils at 30 C. that is the most volatile "terpene" you can get. most of the terpenes responisble for smell are poly-isoprenes with more than 3 isoprene units. these will have boiling points WELL above 30 C. (THC is also a poly-isoprene compound, and its boiling point is so high you cant measure it at atmospheric pressure, no its not 200C read the fine print, .2 mm HG)
 
Hashmasta-Kut

Hashmasta-Kut

honey oil addict
Veteran
im not sure if you are completely disagreeeing or what, but i am certain some percentage probably fairly large of the gas that can be purged after the butane is completely gone are aromatic compounds. i have seen the proof time and time again. and like i said very lemony strains can have their smell qoutient removed very easily with not a lot of heat. the terpenes evaporate out.
 
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gordonliu

Member
honestly, I dont think that the terpenes could be responsible for the BUBBLES. of course they will slowly boil off, but they just arent volatile enough to form bubbles, or alternatively they dont boil fast enough at the temperatures considered to form bubbles.

In fact, most terpenes boil at MUCH higher temperatures than water (limonene: 176 C, for example). I wasnt even able to easily find references for any that boil at less than 100C. even Isoprene, which is the building block for all terpenoids (also odorless), boils at a reasonably high(for small hydrocarbons) 30 C. If you use boiling water to purge your BHO, you wont be getting it near the boiling point of the terpenes.


like I said before though, If your BHO initially consists of 40% THCA (which is a LOWER bound, and in reality will probably consist of higher levels of THCA), then this theoretical BHO will also consist initially of 5% CO2. (the CO2 is part of the THCA molecule so this percentage is NOT in addition to the THCA)

The CO2 is going to flyyyyy off the THCA at 100 C (boiling water purge), and that stuff will absolutely form bubbles. that means 5% of the weight of your sample will be gaseous. that is a ton of gas. the concentration of CO2 in water cant get much higher than that (think soda!).
 
Hashmasta-Kut

Hashmasta-Kut

honey oil addict
Veteran
well if you purge your oil too long the taste decreases significantly. it doesnt take much heat or much time. lemony strains suffer the worst. you may not think its easy to lose terpenes when purging, but i am totally positive you lose lots. and the hotter you have it the worse it is. the house will totally reek like lemon, so pungently its amazing if you arent really gentle, with the strain i am thinking of. and the oil will taste not like much of anything at all.... but if you are very gentle the house gets much less overpoweringly lemonized, and the oil has some nice lemon flavor. thats just one example. its true with prolly all strains. i made some really taste bubba kush oil the other day. but if i overpurged( or stay a bit hot for too long), it wont be as tasty. every time. another interesting example is sweet skunk. i find it to be a harsh smoke( the buds). and its the high piney terpene content thats responsible. if you purge very gentle the oil is harsh too. more purging makes this type of oil smoother, as its main terpenes are harsher than your average. purging sweet skunk stinks your house up to hell and back. tons of terpenes evaporate immediately, no time involved. actually pretty much all strains really have a lot of smell after making oil, even before applying much heat.
 
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gordonliu

Member
I agree, heating a sample of BHO will absolutely speed the rate of loss of terpenoids. I think that goes without saying. heating for too long will obviously remove enough that they cant be detected by the nose or tongue.

gordonliu said:
honestly, I dont think that the terpenes could be responsible for the BUBBLES....
Click to expand...

I will try to be more succinct. Here is my claim:

on the subject of hot water purging on a stove,

The bubbles (excluding the initial 5 minutes or so of butane bubbles) are formed by CO2 liberated from THCA, not terpenoids. the terpenoids do not evaporate fast at the temp of boiling water, and certainly not fast enough to form bubbles by themselves. also, there is a ton of THCA which means a ton of CO2. The THCA releases CO2 very very fast at elevated temperatures.

I encourage criticism, as it is fundamental to the scientific process, so poke holes in this claim. I will try to provide proof, or change my claim if there is a better theory.
 
Hashmasta-Kut

Hashmasta-Kut

honey oil addict
Veteran
you could be right about the bubbles, but i dont agree that terpenoids do not evaporate off fast at the temp of boiling water (usually i purge below boiling actually, and it still creates incredible odor). it takes only 2-3 minutes of purging inside for the house to be fully reeked. i always use a lid for two reasons: one it makes the purge more effective(faster), and two, my lady cant handle terpenes in the air very well. she always sneezes. even with the lid on she will, but the overall house reek is greatly diminished. if one purges for 5-10 minutes with no lid and the bottom water close to boiling( but slightly below), a house will become saturated with odor worse than as bad as any odor problem you can have with marijuana under usual circumstances.
 
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spicecowboy

Active member
Uuuups...

Uuuups...

Oh my fucking goodness!

I´m so sorry that I didn´t get back to this thread,- makes me feel a bit ashamed :redface:


I´m gonna read through the tread now before posting anything else.

Thank you all for contributing.


spice
 
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