Question about recovery tank for MK3 & Passive Recovery Upgrades

Snype · Feb 28, 2015

Details
I have a few MK3's with 6"x6" Spools. None of the systems are going to be used to run more than (1) 1.5" x 36" Spool which fits about a half pound of flowers.

After seeing a thread on IC a few weeks ago about rust forming inside the recovery tanks that people are using, I've become concerned.

Question
1. Can I simply use an additional 6" Spool as my recovery tank with the correct fittings safely?

2. Is it possible to still have problems with rust like the other thread a few weeks ago if I use a Spool instead?

3. Would a 6" x 6" Spool be big enough for a recovery tank for a maximum column of 1.5" x 36" or should I use a 6" x 12" Spool as my added recovery tank?

4. Can I simply convert my MK3's to passive systems by changing out the welded lid to Glacier's Special Cap Reducer 6" with 1 1/2"TC & (3) 1/4? (There's no down-stems on those custom lids)

Thanks in advance!

Gray Wolf · Mar 1, 2015

Snype said:
Details
I have a few MK3's with 6"x6" Spools. None of the systems are going to be used to run more than (1) 1.5" x 36" Spool which fits about a half pound of flowers.

After seeing a thread on IC a few weeks ago about rust forming inside the recovery tanks that people are using, I've become concerned.

Question
1. Can I simply use an additional 6" Spool as my recovery tank with the correct fittings safely?

The 6" spool has a theoretical burst of 2000 psi, but the high pressure clamp is only rated at 300 psi at 70F/200 psi at 250F. It would work for n-Butane, but you would have to watch temperatures and it won't meet ASME/DOT.

With a Propane mix, you would be pushing it: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html

2. Is it possible to still have problems with rust like the other thread a few weeks ago if I use a Spool instead?

Ostensibly the rust is from the inside of your mild steel tank, so taking it away removes that issue. We don't have anything else in our system that rusts, but can't speak for all designs.

3. Would a 6" x 6" Spool be big enough for a recovery tank for a maximum column of 1.5" x 36" or should I use a 6" x 12" Spool as my added recovery tank?

6" OD spool, with .083 wall, 12" long, would have an internal volume of around 321 cubic inches, which would hold about 11.5# of water, at .0361lb/cu in.

n-Butane has a specific gravity of .601 and you can safely fill only 80%, so 11.5# X .601 sg, X .80 fill = 5.5# of butane, which isn't enough.

You would need a 6 X 24 column to hold the 10# typically used to run 1 1/2" X 36" columns.

4. Can I simply convert my MK3's to passive systems by changing out the welded lid to Glacier's Special Cap Reducer 6" with 1 1/2"TC & (3) 1/4? (There's no down-stems on those custom lids)

Thanks in advance!

Eliminating the down tube allows you to reflood the passive system by simply inverting it. Otherwise you can run a Mk III passively with no alterations other than to move the injection from the bottom of the column, to the top.

Snype · Mar 1, 2015

Thank you very much for your help! I got to figure out the math but maybe I can use a 8" x 12" Spool instead. I should be able to figure out the math. Thanks!

Gray Wolf · Mar 1, 2015

Snype said:
Thank you very much for your help! I got to figure out the math but maybe I can use a 8" x 12" Spool instead. I should be able to figure out the math. Thanks!

Pressure rating goes down, as diameter goes up.

Snype · Mar 1, 2015

Gray Wolf said:
Pressure rating goes down, as diameter goes up.

Thanks! I'll stick with a 6x24 then.

Snype · Mar 26, 2015

Gray Wolf said:
Eliminating the down tube allows you to reflood the passive system by simply inverting it. Otherwise you can run a Mk III passively with no alterations other than to move the injection from the bottom of the column, to the top.

I really appreciate your information so thanks a lot! I'm putting together a passive system and some thoughts came to mind. It doesn't make any sense to me that I would need 10 pounds of butane for a 1.5" x 36" spool for a passive top flood system. The Tamisium uses 3.4 pounds of butane for their 8 pound model which I believe a 1.5 x 36" spool fits. I think you guys use 10 pounds of butane because you are bottom flooding and have to dump the oil into the collection pot by adding additional butane to the spool to get it into the collection pot. I believe that's what happens. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally, I don't like the idea of recovery pumps and want to build a system that is completely passive. I think I have the whole thing figured out and am waiting for the rest of the parts.

But I have a question. The numbers aren't going to be perfect but they should be close. I just haven't figured out all the calculations yet but I'm close. My estimated calculations say that a 6"x6" Spool with fit roughly 2.7 pounds of butane and still leave 20% head room. I'm trying to get closer to 3.4 pounds so I think I can use a 6"x8" spool. That's not really the question though. My question is, if I can fit 3.4 pounds of butane in a 6"x8" spool safely, can I place it on top of the MK3 with some Dixon Quick Connects to do my top flood safely or will it be too much weight for the extractor that it could end up breaking somehow? Just want to be safe because I'm getting ready to start running my material within the next 10 days. Thank you for your time!

Gray Wolf · Mar 26, 2015

Snype said:
Details
I have a few MK3's with 6"x6" Spools. None of the systems are going to be used to run more than (1) 1.5" x 36" Spool which fits about a half pound of flowers.

After seeing a thread on IC a few weeks ago about rust forming inside the recovery tanks that people are using, I've become concerned.

Question
1. Can I simply use an additional 6" Spool as my recovery tank with the correct fittings safely?

A 6" clamping system is rated at 300psi @ 70F and 200 psi at 250F. Here is a link to butane and propane mix pressures, all below that.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html

It won't meet DOT for transporting.

2. Is it possible to still have problems with rust like the other thread a few weeks ago if I use a Spool instead?

Ostensibly not from the tank.

3. Would a 6" x 6" Spool be big enough for a recovery tank for a maximum column of 1.5" x 36" or should I use a 6" x 12" Spool as my added recovery tank?

We run most efficiently around 10# with that size spool and you can only fill 80% to allow for thermal expansion, so you would need about 576 cubic inches.

With a 6" OD/.083 wall, that would be about 21.5" of length.

4. Can I simply convert my MK3's to passive systems by changing out the welded lid to Glacier's Special Cap Reducer 6" with 1 1/2"TC & (3) 1/4? (There's no down-stems on those custom lids)

Thanks in advance!

And move the injection tee to the top of the column.

Snype · Mar 26, 2015

If I was to use a 6x6" spool containing 2.7 pounds of butane on a top flood system, if I attached it to the MK3 with Dixon Quick Connects at the top of the system, would the weight of the recovery tank filled with butane possibly break the system? Like would it eventually bend a pipe or fitting? I just don't know if it would be dangerous to run it that way. I understand that you use 10 pounds of butane. I think I can use 1/3rd of that for a top flood. Not sure why I would ever need more than 180 grams of butane per oz of material. If anyone knows the answer to this question, please let me know.

BrainChild · Mar 26, 2015

Hey snype~

I'm building pretty much that exact system you are describing. I'm using welded bottom spools for collection and recovery tank. Except rather than quick connects I'm using 3/8 SS JIC swiveling female at the top of the column and male jic on the spool tank. I was worried about this putting too much strain on the fittings too, but when wrenched together it's quite rigid and secure. I'm sure the quick connects would be easier, I just remember reading on skunk pharm that they should be avoided because of leaks. But if you notice a lot of the sweet leaf systems like bret mavs use even bigger spool tanks and quick connects and don't seem to have issues with the fittings breaking or leaking. I just ended up going with the JIC (rest of system is SS npt).

Also, I agree with you about amount of butane...perhaps GW means when doing a bottom flood and rinse he would use that much?

My 6" recovery tank is going to have the End Cap Reducer 6" TC x 1.5" with a 1.5" TC to 3/8" NPT fitting piece. I kinda wish I'd went even bigger with 1/2" but I think full 3/8" flow from the tank to the column will be adequate. I just knew I wanted bigger than 1/4" because of sluggishly slow cold tane. Also, I am using the active recovery lid on my collection tank, the dip tubes don't seem to be an issue at all with passive from what I understand. I'm using the 3/8 port for recovery and 1/4 for a gauge. If you know of a complication from the diptube lid from I'd love to know about it.

Cheers

Snype · Mar 26, 2015

BrainChild said:
Hey snype~

I'm building pretty much that exact system you are describing. I'm using welded bottom spools for collection and recovery tank. Except rather than quick connects I'm using 3/8 SS JIC swiveling female at the top of the column and male jic on the spool tank. I was worried about this putting too much strain on the fittings too, but when wrenched together it's quite rigid and secure. I'm sure the quick connects would be easier, I just remember reading on skunk pharm that they should be avoided because of leaks. But if you notice a lot of the sweet leaf systems like bret mavs use even bigger spool tanks and quick connects and don't seem to have issues with the fittings breaking or leaking. I just ended up going with the JIC (rest of system is SS npt).

Also, I agree with you about amount of butane...perhaps GW means when doing a bottom flood and rinse he would use that much?

My 6" recovery tank is going to have the End Cap Reducer 6" TC x 1.5" with a 1.5" TC to 3/8" NPT fitting piece. I kinda wish I'd went even bigger with 1/2" but I think full 3/8" flow from the tank to the column will be adequate. I just knew I wanted bigger than 1/4" because of sluggishly slow cold tane. Also, I am using the active recovery lid on my collection tank, the dip tubes don't seem to be an issue at all with passive from what I understand. I'm using the 3/8 port for recovery and 1/4 for a gauge. If you know of a complication from the diptube lid from I'd love to know about it.

Cheers

I thought about using 3/8's instead of 1/4" as well. I'm still experimenting to figure it all out. I'm using TrueBore 1/4" hose for now which is thicker than the other 1/4" hoses that I see.

I never had any problem with my Dixon Quick Releases. Been using them for at least 3 years now. Please let us know how the 3/8" lines are for you. I'm really interested to hear. I'm going with 2 x 1/4" recovery tanks which should help speed things up. I'm going to test a 1/4" system compared to a 3/8" system to see the differences in recovery times. I'm also going to install pressure relief valves for added safety. I should be able to start testing in 2 weeks. I also have the welded bottom spools! Thanks for the post! Sounds like we are doing the same thing! I'm not using the same end cap reducers as you. Mine are all flush at the bottom with no dip tubes. I'm building a few different types of systems to test various models. I got some of my parts so far but waiting for others:

Equations I need:
v=∏r^2h
1 Pound H20=27.68 Cubic Inches

Spool needs to be 138.12 Cubic Inches to safely hold 2.4 pounds of n-butane.

6" x 6" Spool with 0.083 Wall = 160.3 Cu Inches

5.79 pounds of water fits in the 6"x6" Spool

n-Butane sg = .601

5.79 x .601 x .8 = 2.78 pounds

6" x 6" Spool can safely hold 2.78 pounds of n-Butane and still have 20% headroom.

1.73 pounds of butane would fill up the spool exactly half way. I'm using 2.4 pounds of butane which fills the spool 70%. Eventually I'll switch to a 10" Spool with 3/8" fittings for faster recovery times from more surface area and bigger fittings.

10" x 12" Spool
911 Cubic Inches = 32.9 Pounds H2O (Full)
32.9 x .601 x .8 = 15.8 Pounds of Butane with 20% Headroom.

Snype · Apr 7, 2015

MKIII Passive! No Pumps!
2" x 24" Spool. Just waiting for some other parts but almost ready for testing!

BrainChild · Apr 8, 2015

F'ing beautiful! Good idea using 2" columns

OregonKushFarm · Apr 8, 2015

Gray Wolf said:
Eliminating the down tube allows you to reflood the passive system by simply inverting it. Otherwise you can run a Mk III passively with no alterations other than to move the injection from the bottom of the column, to the top.

Didnt you just say that 10# of butane is needed for a 1.5" x 36" column?

How can you fit 10# in a 6x12 pot or even a 6x6? i could only fit 5.5# of butane in my 6x12 pot

If you run the terpp passive by just flooding from the top would 5.5# of butane and a 6x12 collection pot even do the job? I just distilled 5.5 pounds of n tane and plan on running mine passive, am i doing it wrong?

crazy Steve · Apr 8, 2015

Snype said:
MKIII Passive! No Pumps!
2" x 24" Spool. Just waiting for some other parts but almost ready for testing!

Lol those fittings and valves look very familiar....

I'm running parts from my old Tamisium on my MKIII as well haha. I even kept the purge line on there in case things go wrong, go wrong, go wrong.... It's already come in handy twice.

Looking forward to seeing what this can do! I only use 2 lbs of solvent with a 1-1/2 x 24 column. I do a 1 lb pass and close the dump valve for a 5-10 minute soak while I pack another column, then pass the other pound through it.

Snype · Apr 8, 2015

crazy Steve said:
Lol those fittings and valves look very familiar....

I'm running parts from my old Tamisium on my MKIII as well haha. I even kept the purge line on there in case things go wrong, go wrong, go wrong.... It's already come in handy twice.

Looking forward to seeing what this can do! I only use 2 lbs of solvent with a 1-1/2 x 24 column. I do a 1 lb pass and close the dump valve for a 5-10 minute soak while I pack another column, then pass the other pound through it.

LOL! You know how we do! I ordered 100 of them wholesale. Was able to cut down the price by 50%! Been trying to find their supplier for years. I finally found them a few days ago. For the safety purge line I went with Swagelok Low-Pressure Proportional Relief fitting but it's expensive.

Gray Wolf · Apr 8, 2015

OregonKushFarm said:
Didnt you just say that 10# of butane is needed for a 1.5" x 36" column?

How can you fit 10# in a 6x12 pot or even a 6x6? i could only fit 5.5# of butane in my 6x12 pot

If you run the terpp passive by just flooding from the top would 5.5# of butane and a 6x12 collection pot even do the job? I just distilled 5.5 pounds of n tane and plan on running mine passive, am i doing it wrong?

10# in a 50# refrigerant tank, is about right for running the Mk III as an active system. All of the butane isn't used to flood. Some is used as a sink.

I only use 2 lbs of butane with the Lil Terp.

GratefulOne · Apr 9, 2015

You guys with this style of rig think about strapping the unit securely to something. That heavy top would snap the fitting just below it if the unit fell and landed bad.

Snype · Apr 10, 2015

Don't mind me, just collecting data.

2" x 18" Spool holds 200 grams of trim. I'm going to assume my 2 x 24" spool is going to hold 270 grams of trim.

flatslabs · Apr 10, 2015

Snype said:
Don't mind me, just collecting data.

2" x 18" Spool holds 200 grams of trim. I'm going to assume my 2 x 24" spool is going to hold 270 grams of trim.

You can estimate your column with this handy calculator:
http://terppextractors.com/pages/column-calculator

Snype · Apr 10, 2015

First run using dry ice. There's less than 5 PSI pressure. About to learn a lot this week! No pumps!

Question about recovery tank for MK3 & Passive Recovery Upgrades

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