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Old 05-07-2017, 10:40 AM #11
Sampson0420
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I was having issues early with a and B combo... Thinking it was a mg deficiency. Regardless, switched to h3ads formula for base nutes, and using canna additives, and floralicious... It's a lot, but in moderation. Plants look awesome 4 weeks into 12/12.
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:06 AM #12
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dont wanna open a new one, so..
could anybody explain to me how canna a b works with 34ml/L at npk 190 65 90 in week 3-5?
Switched to canna cogr some years ago where the flores got 160 55 225 in the same phase at nearly same ca/mg level. I lower the dose, combined with standard canna zym dosige i am near head formula what surprised me since i made the math after i found my perfect values..

This high N and low K levels on canna coco ab, considering lucas/head and even the cogr doesnt sound right to me. Some ppl add pk from week 3 on and lower base but canna not even mentioning this somewhere makes me sceptical..

in addition, there was a time i found cannabis mentioned some times on the canna website while nowerdays there are just pumpkins and stuff. Maybe the ab is like that because they try to cover more species? Am i talking total bullcrap?
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Old 05-15-2017, 06:33 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampson0420 View Post
I was having issues early with a and B combo... Thinking it was a mg deficiency. Regardless, switched to h3ads formula for base nutes, and using canna additives, and floralicious... It's a lot, but in moderation. Plants look awesome 4 weeks into 12/12.
I have to add cal/mag with it.
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Old 05-15-2017, 09:05 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutty View Post
dont wanna open a new one, so..
could anybody explain to me how canna a b works with 34ml/L at npk 190 65 90 in week 3-5?
Switched to canna cogr some years ago where the flores got 160 55 225 in the same phase at nearly same ca/mg level. I lower the dose, combined with standard canna zym dosige i am near head formula what surprised me since i made the math after i found my perfect values..

This high N and low K levels on canna coco ab, considering lucas/head and even the cogr doesnt sound right to me. Some ppl add pk from week 3 on and lower base but canna not even mentioning this somewhere makes me sceptical..

in addition, there was a time i found cannabis mentioned some times on the canna website while nowerdays there are just pumpkins and stuff. Maybe the ab is like that because they try to cover more species? Am i talking total bullcrap?
Hey Dutty. Looking through my notes on Canna these are the lab results and profile Canna should be according to the "Guaranteed Minimum Analysis".

What Canna should contain according the "guaranteed minimum analysis".

Canna A/B @ 8ml/gal.............12ml/gal
N...................121....... ...........181
P.....................42...... .............63
K....................60....... ............90
CA..................98........ ...........147
Mg.................33......... ...........50
S...............Not listed on the label


Canna Coco lab tests A/B

Posted by Glow 2ml A/B liter.......Sent into a lab by a friend. A/B 2.5 ml/liter.....Both used "Steamed Distilled Water"
N..............100.04......... .........................122.5 2(3.25 is NH4)
P.................32.......... .............................. 40.54
K...............47.2.......... ............................50 .19
CA.............106............ ..........................135. 63
Mg.............38............. ............................49 .48
S...............35.8.......... ............................19 .95
B...............NA............ .......................... .161
FE..............NA............ .......................... .504
MN.............NA............. ........................ .315
CU.............NA............. ......................... .176
ZN.............NA............. ......................... .027
MO............NA.............. ........................ .035

This is link to a test on Canna by a user on this site

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=251463

Canna PK 13/14 "Guaranteed Minimum Analysis"

Canna PK 13/14 @ 1ml/gallon P=15ppm.....K=31pmm

Since Canna doesn't ever reduce Ca(until the final few weeks) throughout the grow they jam the PK 13/14 in week 5 of flower to help offset the higher Ca levels that have been given to the medium. I think there are much better ways to achieve the same results but this is how they do it.

Last edited by Absolem; 05-16-2017 at 03:25 AM..
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:14 PM #15
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Thank you. I got the results calculated with angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm and they seem to fit quite nice.

And yes, thats what im interessted in. The strategy behind the a and b, head and even cogr. You say they offset the high ca with pk 13/14?
Because i had ca problems with my high ca tap water(130mg/l). Since canna needs the tap water i was never shure how much of my tap i have to add and since mg is okay but after split to 1/4 its low too i have to add mg.
Tried 10% tap and got ca/mg def with canna fert.
25% seems good. But without adding mono mg i had high ca like symptoms. High sturry ph that didnt drop. In addition with high N in canna i always had p and k def because of high ph in coco from week 4/5 on. Even ca def because of high ph but excess (not available) ca in medium.

Could it be canna follows a more is more strategy and counters high ph by to much n absorbtion with abnormal high p and k dose (and while k represses Ca in Coco high Ca too) in flower with pk13/14 at 15ml/l? This could make these minerals more available even if the ph isnt right for this elements, true?

Canna wrote smth about pushing minerals to the plants i believe.

But again, how can Canna ab work with that low K values and Cogr works with high K?. Ca mg is nearly the same

Here are the values (minimum feeding by canna schedule, early flower Canna AB and Vega, first week of giving flores):

Canna AB +Czym (2,5ml/l: p=19, k=17), Cogr Vega +Czym, Cogr Flores +Czym
N 129, 157, 138
P 63, 47, 66
K 80, 150, 216
Mg 50, 61, 61
Ca 126, 139, 142

for me it looks like head f.e. is aiming for a low ph where ca is available well. So ca is low for his fert. He added mg with epsom because low ph isnt good for mg uptake.

Seems clever to me because a ca accumulation is worst you can get in coco because you cant flush it out. You can just let the plant use it till its gone.

But why canna goes the other way? Because low Ca let the ph fluctuate more and could cause more trouble?
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:26 PM #16
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Hey Dutty. Just got back from a business trip. A lot of stuff to try and cover in your post. On the Canna section I'll tell you what a plant scientist told me. This is going to be a long reply for the heads up. Lol

H3ad is one hell of a grower. He knows his game when it comes to how plants react to changing the solution profile and what each element does. I give him big time kudos for understanding how coco coir works and the numbers he needs to make his plants grow the best. Let's jump in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post

In the coco, I am now using 6ml/gal micro and 9ml/gal bloom which gives the nute profile:
N 97
P 60
K 105
Mg 41
S 27
Ca 97

adding 1 g/gal epsom salts to the solution changes the numbers for mg and s to:
Mg 67
S 61


Adjusting for the extra available potassium in the coco, the new formula puts me very close to the 'target ratio'... Phosphorous is a tad low, but I think there should be no worries there...

.

In H3ad's very first post he outlines the solution profile needed to run in coco. He explains why he is using those numbers for coir. I think most people glaze over the solution profile numbers and only see 6/9. In the first post he adds 1 gram of magnesium sulfate(Epsom Salt) to increase his Mg and S. He later drops the Epsom and sees no difference. Let's review some of his posts to see why he and many other people have great results using the 6/9 while some struggle.

Post #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post
Well, I had considered the cal-mag... but with my formulation, the only elements that really needed modified were the Mg and the S... So I broke out the handy nute calculator from the cannastats site, and figured out exactly how much Magnesium Sulfate(epsom) to add...

Also with the mix I'm using, I think additional Ca would only cause me problems...

Thanks for all the great input guys... I hope to give ya's a helluva show...
He clearly states adding Ca to his mix will give him problems. Yet the first thing people do when they run the 6/9 and get issues is add the ONE item he says will cause problems. He is right. Adding Ca will only cause issues.

Post #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post
More ph issues with coco than peat? amazing... my experience has been quite the opposite... The coco affects the pH of my nute solution none at all, or very minutely at most...
H3ad makes no issue with coco coir and it's pH. I agree. Here's a study that lists the pH of coco coir. It's on page 2.
https://hortsci.ashspublications.org.../2135.full.pdf


Post #158. Gives solution profile numbers for those with hard water. Recommending the GH Hard water Micro which contains NO Ca.


Post # 202.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post


Exactly... Plant nutrition is wayy more about availability than concentration...
Less is indeed more...

Thing is with the 'washing out', that mineral salts in a polar solvent like water dissociate into the component ions... This happens much more readily in a weak solution, than in a concentrated one... Plants feed by exchanging ions from the root hair surface with ions suspended in the solution...
Coco has a high cation exchange rate, meaning the cations like Mg, Ca, K and others exchange with cations in the coco, 'attaching' temporarily to the medium... As you water in subsequent waterings, some of the cations in the new solution will exchange with the cations held by the coco, releasing them back into the solution...
Coupled with the diminished need for said nutrient as stretch slows and ripening accelerates, the timing works out right for a proper flush...
Great information.

Post #211.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post
because the water coming out of my dehumidifier has lower ppm than r/o... It's been evaporated then condensed and collected, so I call it distilled... I guess I could really use my tap water, it's only 40 ppm, but the dehumidifier is already sitting there collecting clean (<10ppm) water for me...
Notice H3ad is basically using RO water? Not hard water loaded with Ca

Post # 256.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post
I'd use the r/o water if it's easily available and use neither the cal/mag nor the hardwater micro...
H3ad is pretty clear how to use RO and when not to.


Post #259. I think this is your answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post
So many people think you need to supplement Ca because their ratio's are out of balance... My tap water is 6.5 ph and 38-44 ppm with very little, if any, Ca in it at all, and I have NEVER had Ca issues... coco does not need Ca! The proof is my garden... The solution to a deficiency is NOT usually adding more of the deficient element, the solution is to balance the solution by removing competing cations... There is way plenty Ca in the micro(97 ppm in my mix), especially if you are only using micro for your only nitrogen source.
H3ad states how low Ca is in his tap water. H3ad uses water with very low Ca for his 6/9 formula for a reason. It's funny how people take the 6/9 formula load it with hard water from their tap which H3ad says NOT TO DO. Then when they have issues they load it up with more Ca/Mg. When he says not to.


Post # 314.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad View Post
is pretty much the regimen I've settled into...
I'm running the 6/9 until the production of new calyx begins to slow... a couple of weeks into flower production on faster flowering strains, a bit longer for 70+ day flowerers... Some of the heavier finishers get the extra 3 ml/gal of bloom that last week... then 0/9 up until flush time...

I have been trying minor variations... upping the bloom during veg gave a bit of Mg/Ca lockout... Leaving out the micro too early looses bud mass... Leaving the micro in too long makes flushing more difficult... Not flushing long enough affects the quality of the flavor and burn... Watering with no runoff at all causes lockout and flushing issues late in flower... Watering with more than a tiny bit of runoff is a waste of nute, and environmentally irresponsible...

No matter what variations I've tried, I seem to end up right back just about where I am now...
After changing a few things here and there H3ad sticks to the 6/9.


On to Canna and their low K. Many years ago I learned how to break down the solution profile for nutes like many others have as well. Being a coco grower I broke down Canna's profile and ran it. I did that by using a few bottle ferts and some salts. Sure enough the deficiency show's up week 4 of veg. I ran what would equal Canna at 8ml of A/B gallon. The low K screamed at me so the next time I filled my stock tank I adjusted for more K and the problem went right away.

So years later I have a chance to talk to a plant scientist who is heavily involved in the nutrient industry. I asked him about the low K in Canna and what he thought about it. I'll tell you more about that in a bit.


I asked the plant scientist about a deficiency I saw before and couldn't figure it out. PS explained some deficiencies can be detected by eye. But it's not the best way and your asking for issues. The PS explained he didn't want to "guess" what was going on. PS said if you want to find what the deficiency is you need your solution profile, a test of the growing medium, and a leaf tissue analysis. Then you can say for sure what is going on. PS also explained you can have many false positives by trying to read a leaf. I live around multi million dollar vineyards and they test their soil, and leaf tissue regularly. If it rains hard they can tell how many nutrients have been leached through the soil and how that will affect what is available for the plant and any issues they may run into and correct them before anything goes wrong.


Back to Canna. The PS said with the low K found in some solution profiles it will cause issues with plants specifically if they are adding Ca through their tap and adding Ca/Mg at the same time. I asked why it seems adding Ca/Mg appears to fix the problem. The PS said the Ca/Mg is NOT fixing the problem by the plant using it. It is fixing the issue because the overload of high Ca by tap water and adding Ca/Mg is forcing the stubborn K to release from the coco thus fixing the issue. The issue is usually cleared up by week 3 of flower because people increase their A/B and cut the Ca/Mg giving more of a 1/1 ratio of k/Ca. Plant roots send out positive ions into the coco medium to get nutrients. Ca++, Mg++, and K+. The + stands for how many positive hydrogen atoms the element has. As the root hairs send out positive ions for nutrients they are constantly unbinding Ca, Mg,and K from the medium. The plant takes what it needs then unused nutrients become bound by the coco again.
Because coco has a negative charge it binds with the positive charges in Ca++, Mg++, and K+ for the plants to use as they feel.


Let's finally compare H3ad to Canna. Why does H3ad's formula work with RO and using almost identical Ca numbers but he experiences NO Ca deficiency?


Canna Coco A/B@ 8ml/gallon. Canna Boost @ 10ml/gallon. Total......................H3a d
N..........121................ .......................0...... ..........................121. ..................97
P...........42................ ........................12.... ...........................54. ...................60
K..........60................. .......................22..... ..........................22.. .................105
Ca........98.................. .......................0...... ..........................98.. ..................97
Mg.......33................... .......................0...... .........................33... .................41
S.........15.................. ........................0..... ...........................15. ..................27

Adding 10ml/gallon of Boost really helps the K number. I think to many people short themselves on the K in Canna because Boost will Break your wallet.

Let's look at Canna a different way that will get us much closer to H3ad solution profile.

Canna Coco 8ml/gal. Yara SOP 52(potassium sulfate) @ 1/2 gram to a gallon. Total
N.............121............. ....................0......... .............................. ...................121
P..............42............. ......................0....... .............................. .....................42
K.............60.............. ....................57........ .............................. ...................107
Ca...........98............... ....................0......... .............................. ....................98
Mg..........33................ ...................0.......... .............................. ...................33
S.............15.............. ....................24........ .............................. ....................39


Absolem's Canna Profile with Yara SOP 52.......... H3ads 6/9
N........121.................. .............................. .......97
P.........42.................. .............................. ........60
K.......107................... .............................. ......105
Ca......98.................... .............................. .......97
Mg.....33..................... .............................. ......41
S.......39.................... .............................. .......27

These are the numbers I gave my Canna friends before they switched to Jacks. They would run this till the end of week one of 12/12 to help reduce the stretch. Then drop the Yara SOP 52 down to 1/4 gram/gallon and add Pk 13/14 at rate of 2.5mls/gallon for a P=37 and K=77 through weeks 2-5 of 12/12.

Canna runs a very strict 3-1 Ca to Mg in their formula. When people add hardwater to Canna it throws off the Ca/Mg ratios which are important to maintain. So why does H3ad's formula work in coco with RO water but Canna says to run tap water? H3ad's works because he simply doesn't overload the Ca into the coco limiting the K. I'm guessing Canna doesn't want people to feel like they have to use RO water thus not buying their gear. For ease, cost, and quality I like H3ad's numbers better than Canna.

EDIT 7-10-2017. In the sentence below I had the Ca and K backwards. The sentence is now correct.

I feel a solution profile can only handle 30mg/l more of K than Ca or your solution profile will cause you issues in coco.
(Amended sentence 7-10-2017). This is why H3ad runs close to a 1/1 with his K and Ca.

Last edited by Absolem; 10-30-2017 at 02:08 PM..
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Old 05-22-2017, 01:41 AM #17
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I only use the Canna A+B but veg 4WKs I go... 5.6MLs of both per G of H2o the first two WKs then bump it up to 7.1MLs the final two WKs... just my input..
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:35 AM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolem View Post
Hey Dutty. Just got back from a business trip. A lot of stuff to try and cover in your post. On the Canna section I'll tell you what a plant scientist told me. This is going to be a long reply for the heads up. Lol

H3ad is one hell of a grower. He knows his game when it comes to how plants react to changing the solution profile and what each element does. I give him big time kudos for understanding how coco coir works and the numbers he needs to make his plants grow the best. Let's jump in.




In H3ad's very first post he outlines the solution profile needed to run in coco. He explains why he is using those numbers for coir. I think most people glaze over the solution profile numbers and only see 6/9. In the first post he adds 1 gram of magnesium sulfate(Epsom Salt) to increase his Mg and S. He later drops the Epsom and sees no difference. Let's review some of his posts to see why he and many other people have great results using the 6/9 while some struggle.

Post #11

He clearly states adding Ca to his mix will give him problems. Yet the first thing people do when they run the 6/9 and get issues is add the ONE item he says will cause problems. He is right. Adding Ca will only cause issues.

Post #23

H3ad makes no issue with coco coir and it's pH. I agree. Here's a study that lists the pH of coco coir. It's on page 2.
https://hortsci.ashspublications.org.../2135.full.pdf


Post #158. Gives solution profile numbers for those with hard water. Recommending the GH Hard water Micro which contains NO Ca.


Post # 202.

Great information.

Post #211.

Notice H3ad is basically using RO water? Not hard water loaded with Ca

Post # 256.

H3ad is pretty clear how to use RO and when not to.


Post #259. I think this is your answer.

H3ad states how low Ca is in his tap water. H3ad uses water with very low Ca for his 6/9 formula for a reason. It's funny how people take the 6/9 formula load it with hard water from their tap which H3ad says NOT TO DO. Then when they have issues they load it up with more Ca/Mg. When he says not to.


Post # 314.

After changing a few things here and there H3ad sticks to the 6/9.


On to Canna and their low K. Many years ago I learned how to break down the solution profile for nutes like many others have as well. Being a coco grower I broke down Canna's profile and ran it. I did that by using a few bottle ferts and some salts. Sure enough the deficiency show's up week 4 of veg. I ran what would equal Canna at 8ml of A/B gallon. The low K screamed at me so the next time I filled my stock tank I adjusted for more K and the problem went right away.

So years later I have a chance to talk to a plant scientist who is heavily involved in the nutrient industry. I asked him about the low K in Canna and what he thought about it. I'll tell you more about that in a bit.


I asked the plant scientist about a deficiency I saw before and couldn't figure it out. PS explained some deficiencies can be detected by eye. But it's not the best way and your asking for issues. The PS explained he didn't want to "guess" what was going on. PS said if you want to find what the deficiency is you need your solution profile, a test of the growing medium, and a leaf tissue analysis. Then you can say for sure what is going on. PS also explained you can have many false positives by trying to read a leaf. I live around multi million dollar vineyards and they test their soil, and leaf tissue regularly. If it rains hard they can tell how many nutrients have been leached through the soil and how that will affect what is available for the plant and any issues they may run into and correct them before anything goes wrong.


Back to Canna. The PS said with the low K found in some solution profiles it will cause issues with plants specifically if they are adding Ca through their tap and adding Ca/Mg at the same time. I asked why it seems adding Ca/Mg appears to fix the problem. The PS said the Ca/Mg is NOT fixing the problem by the plant using it. It is fixing the issue because the overload of high Ca by tap water and adding Ca/Mg is forcing the stubborn K to release from the coco thus fixing the issue. The issue is usually cleared up by week 3 of flower because people increase their A/B and cut the Ca/Mg giving more of a 1/1 ratio of k/Ca. Plant roots send out positive ions into the coco medium to get nutrients. Ca++, Mg++, and P+. The + stands for how many positive hydrogen atoms the element has. As the root hairs send out positive ions for nutrients they are constantly unbinding Ca, Mg,and K from the medium. The plant takes what it needs then unused nutrients become bound by the coco again.
Because coco has a negative charge it binds with the positive charges in Ca++, Mg++, and P+ for the plants to use as they feel.


Let's finally compare H3ad to Canna. Why does H3ad's formula work with RO and using almost identical Ca numbers but he experiences NO Ca deficiency?


Canna Coco A/B@ 8ml/gallon. Canna Boost @ 10ml/gallon. Total......................H3a d
N..........121................ .......................0...... ..........................121. ..................97
P...........42................ ........................12.... ...........................54. ...................60
K..........60................. .......................22..... ..........................22.. .................105
Ca........98.................. .......................0...... ..........................98.. ..................97
Mg.......33................... .......................0...... .........................33... .................41
S.........15.................. ........................0..... ...........................15. ..................27

Adding 10ml/gallon of Boost really helps the K number. I think to many people short themselves on the K in Canna because Boost will Break your wallet.

Let's look at Canna a different way that will get us much closer to H3ad solution profile.

Canna Coco 8ml/gal. Yara SOP 52(potassium sulfate) @ 1/2 gram to a gallon. Total
N.............121............. ....................0......... .............................. ...................121
P..............42............. ......................0....... .............................. .....................42
K.............60.............. ....................57........ .............................. ...................107
Ca...........98............... ....................0......... .............................. ....................98
Mg..........33................ ...................0.......... .............................. ...................33
S.............15.............. ....................24........ .............................. ....................39


Absolem's Canna Profile with Yara SOP 52.......... H3ads 6/9
N........121.................. .............................. .......97
P.........42.................. .............................. ........60
K.......107................... .............................. ......105
Ca......98.................... .............................. .......97
Mg.....33..................... .............................. ......41
S.......39.................... .............................. .......27

These are the numbers I gave my Canna friends before they switched to Jacks. They would run this till the end of week one of 12/12 to help reduce the stretch. Then drop the Yara SOP 52 down to 1/4 gram/gallon and add Pk 13/14 at rate of 2.5mls/gallon for a P=37 and K=77 through weeks 2-5 of 12/12.

Canna runs a very strict 3-1 Ca to Mg in their formula. When people add hardwater to Canna it throws off the Ca/Mg ratios which are important to maintain. So why does H3ad's formula work in coco with RO water but Canna says to run tap water? H3ad's works because he simply doesn't overload the Ca into the coco limiting the K. I'm guessing Canna doesn't want people to feel like they have to use RO water thus not buying their gear. For ease, cost, and quality I like H3ad's numbers better than Canna.

I feel a solution profile can only handle 30mg/l more of Ca than K or your solution profile will cause you issues in coco.
This is by far one of the best posts on fertigation for Cannabis on the entire web...and I thank you.
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:12 AM #19
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Originally Posted by Relentless View Post
Ive looked around but all i can find is the european version and its a pain constantly converting..

Im on my first all coco run..
Using straight coco along with these:
canna a
canna b
cannazyme
canna pk 13/14

just using a and b in veg so far, at 1.5tsp per gallon each.

any tips would be greatly appreciated..

ph is 5.9-6.1.. watering until theres a good amount of runoff and letting them sit in the water for a good bit to soak it up..
I used 1 tsp/ gal for veg and 2 tsp/gal flower ph 6.0 had great success canna rocks
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:22 PM #20
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Originally Posted by Rondon View Post
This is by far one of the best posts on fertigation for Cannabis on the entire web...and I thank you.

Thanks for the kind words. Glad you enjoyed it.

I made a glaring mistake in the final sentence. I have the Ca and K backwards. This is the correction below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolem View Post

EDIT 7-10-2017. In the sentence below I had the Ca and K backwards. The sentence is now correct.

I feel a solution profile can only handle 30mg/l more of K than Ca or your solution profile will cause you issues in coco.
(Amended sentence 7-10-2017). This is why H3ad runs close to a 1/1 with his K and Ca.
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