-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Will a particular pheno reproduce itself?
- Thread starter Treevly
- Start date
Not at all certain about this, but I think it is more likely to throw dominance in offspring consistent with the phenotypic expression. Recessive traits do come through, but it is rarer.
Tynehead Tom
Well-known member
if you are talking about using the lesser dominant pheno as a mom in a single pairing with a male of the same strain 'and' you chose that male based on the female traits of the lesser dominant pheno. Yes, you should see the lesser dominant pheno influenced expressions in the next generation of plants. You may not see anything resembling the moms sister pheno... the dominant in the original group of plants.
in simpler terms... if the Dominant is XYZ and the lesser dominant is XY and is used as a mom..... you might not see any expressions of XYZ in the offspring. That is where the male you choose will have some bearing but even still, an exact expression of XYZ will be unlikely.
in simpler terms... if the Dominant is XYZ and the lesser dominant is XY and is used as a mom..... you might not see any expressions of XYZ in the offspring. That is where the male you choose will have some bearing but even still, an exact expression of XYZ will be unlikely.
Treevly
Active member
My curiosity shows in a couple of examples.
1) A friend gave me some of Mandlebrot's Royal Kush VIII pollen, a little bit. It is, friend says, the sativa phenotype. Someone else got the indica pheno. Looking at the family tree on **********, I seee that the Royal Kush is largely indica, and that the first apparent sativa genes show up in Sour Diesel, which was original Diesel X DNL. Original Diesel had lots of Skunk in it. DNL had Skunk and Hawaiian, the latter being at least partly sativa. All in all, there was a lot of Skunk happening back in the family tree, although more recently there has been a lot of indica injected. My conclusion then, is that IF the strain is showing a sative-leaning phenotype, there is a strong chance that the sativa-ish stuff will likely be from Skunk, although not necessary. If so, that would be good because I have another custom-Skunk in clone form and I don't have the pollen I expected to have. If the kush is sativa-skunkish pheno, that might work well, maybe not, but I think that it would have a fighting chance at doing the job I want.
2) The Pakistani Chitral Kush mostly is purple-ish, but there is a well-known green pheno. If the green pheno can be bred M X F, or if the green pheno is crossed with some other non-Chitral critter, would the green be much more likely to express those genes, rather than throwing back to a purple great-grandmother or similar?
Hey somebody has to think about these things.
1) A friend gave me some of Mandlebrot's Royal Kush VIII pollen, a little bit. It is, friend says, the sativa phenotype. Someone else got the indica pheno. Looking at the family tree on **********, I seee that the Royal Kush is largely indica, and that the first apparent sativa genes show up in Sour Diesel, which was original Diesel X DNL. Original Diesel had lots of Skunk in it. DNL had Skunk and Hawaiian, the latter being at least partly sativa. All in all, there was a lot of Skunk happening back in the family tree, although more recently there has been a lot of indica injected. My conclusion then, is that IF the strain is showing a sative-leaning phenotype, there is a strong chance that the sativa-ish stuff will likely be from Skunk, although not necessary. If so, that would be good because I have another custom-Skunk in clone form and I don't have the pollen I expected to have. If the kush is sativa-skunkish pheno, that might work well, maybe not, but I think that it would have a fighting chance at doing the job I want.
2) The Pakistani Chitral Kush mostly is purple-ish, but there is a well-known green pheno. If the green pheno can be bred M X F, or if the green pheno is crossed with some other non-Chitral critter, would the green be much more likely to express those genes, rather than throwing back to a purple great-grandmother or similar?
Hey somebody has to think about these things.
Tynehead Tom
Well-known member
Long Valley Royal eh? 
I have a close friend who is a close friend of Mandelbrots brother from Emerald Mnt seeds.
I was gifted 100 or so LVRK #7 seeds, LVRK x truth and lvrk x truthband. Then I have worked thru about 100 seeds of the LVRK #9 F2's made by former member beanz(baked beanz server funds drops on seedbay) of which I bought a few packs and was gifted the rest. I also have a nice sack of Pure Royal I have yet to dive into.
I have been working the LVRK for 3 years now in various forms. You would be wise to select the narrow leaf expressions. The ones that reek of lavender and burning tires LOL
Most certainly one of my favorite lines to play with and outcross with. Straight fire with serious flavor and effect.
I have a close friend who is a close friend of Mandelbrots brother from Emerald Mnt seeds.
I was gifted 100 or so LVRK #7 seeds, LVRK x truth and lvrk x truthband. Then I have worked thru about 100 seeds of the LVRK #9 F2's made by former member beanz(baked beanz server funds drops on seedbay) of which I bought a few packs and was gifted the rest. I also have a nice sack of Pure Royal I have yet to dive into.
I have been working the LVRK for 3 years now in various forms. You would be wise to select the narrow leaf expressions. The ones that reek of lavender and burning tires LOL
Most certainly one of my favorite lines to play with and outcross with. Straight fire with serious flavor and effect.
Treevly
Active member
Thanks, that is very interesting. Thing is, I have only polllen and not much, which perhaps is just as well since I don't have many females to inflict it upon. I have one Skunkish-OG strain which should be very interesting, and another strain which tends to be hard to work with because it so dominates anything it is crossed with. It is very vigorous and probably shows a bit of the Thai part of its heritage. It would probably dominate an oak tree if crossed with one. I'll try it with that one too.
Do you find the narrow leaf versions to be and shorter/taller or later/sooner than the broad leaf versions?
Thanks again.
Do you find the narrow leaf versions to be and shorter/taller or later/sooner than the broad leaf versions?
Thanks again.
troutman
Seed Whore
Less common phenotype sounds recessive and you may have to breed to the F2 generation to see more of them.
After which, if you can find a male and female with the same phenotype your chances of stabilizing is much better.
You may want to keep a clone around just in case though.
After which, if you can find a male and female with the same phenotype your chances of stabilizing is much better.
You may want to keep a clone around just in case though.
Treevly
Active member
Thanks very much, fishperson. I'm not quite clear on that. Do you mean that if you have a male or female, but not both, then you breed oddpheno with the other, and your odds of getting oddphenos in the F1 are fairly good because one of the parents is, and then they will show in F2 if, as you suggest, you have M & F both?
I think, going by what's said so far, that you have a bit of a misconception about phenotypes.
you have to look at seperate traits in isolation. you can't make a statement about a specific strain having a specific phenotype in it, with a combination of different seperate traits.
you CAN say for example that a specific strain has purple and green phenotypes, since in this case you are looking at only 1 trait. but you CAN NOT attach more traits to it because it is purple, for example you keep all plants that have purple early on because last round your favorite plant from that strain was a purple one. there's the concept of gene linkage, but with unrelated traits like this it's safer to assume there is no linkage then to assume there is. especially if you're considering more complex traits and more together, very very unlikely you'd find such a large set of unrelated traits that are also all tightly linked together.
so, looking at each trait of your desired phenotype independently, you have to know for each trait how it inherits to know what its progeny will do.
first step would be to think about whether you are looking at a qualitative or quantitative trait.
qualitative= can be on or off, 0 or 1. for example the webbed leaves from duckfoot: a plant either has webbed leaves, or it does not. the simplest cases of qualitative traits behave according to those mendelian genetics(recessive/dominant) you often see around here, but it might be more complex too for example a certain trait may require 2 genes together, instead oif being determined by a single gene.
quantitative= it's a trait that has no clear on/off situation, but it's a number with a spectrum. yield for example. you won't see 2 groups where 1 group of plants has exactly 200 grams per plant yield, and another group all exactly 500 gram per plant. instead with quantitative traits you usually see a normal distribution, with a population average and a certain range around it, and rare plants that go further into the extreme ends(the tails). usually this does not really follow the classic mendelian schemes, since many genes can be involved for a single trait, each of them contributing just a little to the end result. but sometimes there may be a single gene with a large effect, and then you could see something more aproaching mendelian genetics, for example instead of that normal distribution with 1 population average you might see 2 peaks.
so coming back to your situation, if a certain trait in your desired phenotype is a qualitative trait, you are more likely to find the offspring to be the same, but it depends on how it is regulated. if it's a single gene recessive, like duckfoot leaves or autoflower, you know for sure that each plant expressing the trait is homozygous, and therefor all offspring will be fully webbed or autoflower.
but if the trait you look at is determined by a dominant allele, you cannot really be sure wether it is homozygous or heterozygous in your original plant, since both those options will express the trait. but you can do progeny testing, if you see that the (selfed) progeny segregates into a 3:1 ratio, that tels you that the trait is determined by a single gene, and it is heterozygous in the selfed plant. you could use progeny testing to find a plant that does not segregate, and so must be homozygous dominant.
another option might be that the trait you are interested in is the result of co-dominance or something like that. relative CBD/THC ratio would be an example of this(the absolute level would be quantitative though, but the ratio is largely determined by presence of either functional CBDA-synthase or functional THCA-synthase, or both), they are seperate genes but they are so closely linked that they will nearly always inherit together. the result of this is that if you take a 50/50 THC/CBD plant, that will be nearly impossible to stabilise, since it will almost always segregate into 25% full thc, 50% 50-50 ratio, and 25% full cbd again in the progeny. except those very few recombinants where the alleles were swapped around(if it's actually a single gene instead of 2 cosely linked ones, stabilisation will be completely impossible. just in this case of CBD/THC ratio it is possible, since they are actually 2 genes, but a lot of work).
but that's only for the qualitative traits, for the quantitative ones you can assume there will be some variation. but it will mostly stay around your population average, unless you start selecting towards either ends(each generation you would do selection for a quantitative trait, if the heritability is high enough and you're not screwed by too much environmental variation, then each generation the population average will shift a bit towards the side you selected it towards. so the value of the plants you used for the next generation won't instantly be the new population average, but you will move towards that side, how fast you move there depends on how the heritability works out).
so conclusion, no, it won't exactly reproduce itelf, you can make some guesses based on what kind of trait you are looking at, but in the end you will have to try it out and see what comes out, without generating data you can only do rough guesses. but based on what kind of progeny you get out of it, you can hone in your guesses.
you have to look at seperate traits in isolation. you can't make a statement about a specific strain having a specific phenotype in it, with a combination of different seperate traits.
you CAN say for example that a specific strain has purple and green phenotypes, since in this case you are looking at only 1 trait. but you CAN NOT attach more traits to it because it is purple, for example you keep all plants that have purple early on because last round your favorite plant from that strain was a purple one. there's the concept of gene linkage, but with unrelated traits like this it's safer to assume there is no linkage then to assume there is. especially if you're considering more complex traits and more together, very very unlikely you'd find such a large set of unrelated traits that are also all tightly linked together.
so, looking at each trait of your desired phenotype independently, you have to know for each trait how it inherits to know what its progeny will do.
first step would be to think about whether you are looking at a qualitative or quantitative trait.
qualitative= can be on or off, 0 or 1. for example the webbed leaves from duckfoot: a plant either has webbed leaves, or it does not. the simplest cases of qualitative traits behave according to those mendelian genetics(recessive/dominant) you often see around here, but it might be more complex too for example a certain trait may require 2 genes together, instead oif being determined by a single gene.
quantitative= it's a trait that has no clear on/off situation, but it's a number with a spectrum. yield for example. you won't see 2 groups where 1 group of plants has exactly 200 grams per plant yield, and another group all exactly 500 gram per plant. instead with quantitative traits you usually see a normal distribution, with a population average and a certain range around it, and rare plants that go further into the extreme ends(the tails). usually this does not really follow the classic mendelian schemes, since many genes can be involved for a single trait, each of them contributing just a little to the end result. but sometimes there may be a single gene with a large effect, and then you could see something more aproaching mendelian genetics, for example instead of that normal distribution with 1 population average you might see 2 peaks.
so coming back to your situation, if a certain trait in your desired phenotype is a qualitative trait, you are more likely to find the offspring to be the same, but it depends on how it is regulated. if it's a single gene recessive, like duckfoot leaves or autoflower, you know for sure that each plant expressing the trait is homozygous, and therefor all offspring will be fully webbed or autoflower.
but if the trait you look at is determined by a dominant allele, you cannot really be sure wether it is homozygous or heterozygous in your original plant, since both those options will express the trait. but you can do progeny testing, if you see that the (selfed) progeny segregates into a 3:1 ratio, that tels you that the trait is determined by a single gene, and it is heterozygous in the selfed plant. you could use progeny testing to find a plant that does not segregate, and so must be homozygous dominant.
another option might be that the trait you are interested in is the result of co-dominance or something like that. relative CBD/THC ratio would be an example of this(the absolute level would be quantitative though, but the ratio is largely determined by presence of either functional CBDA-synthase or functional THCA-synthase, or both), they are seperate genes but they are so closely linked that they will nearly always inherit together. the result of this is that if you take a 50/50 THC/CBD plant, that will be nearly impossible to stabilise, since it will almost always segregate into 25% full thc, 50% 50-50 ratio, and 25% full cbd again in the progeny. except those very few recombinants where the alleles were swapped around(if it's actually a single gene instead of 2 cosely linked ones, stabilisation will be completely impossible. just in this case of CBD/THC ratio it is possible, since they are actually 2 genes, but a lot of work).
but that's only for the qualitative traits, for the quantitative ones you can assume there will be some variation. but it will mostly stay around your population average, unless you start selecting towards either ends(each generation you would do selection for a quantitative trait, if the heritability is high enough and you're not screwed by too much environmental variation, then each generation the population average will shift a bit towards the side you selected it towards. so the value of the plants you used for the next generation won't instantly be the new population average, but you will move towards that side, how fast you move there depends on how the heritability works out).
so conclusion, no, it won't exactly reproduce itelf, you can make some guesses based on what kind of trait you are looking at, but in the end you will have to try it out and see what comes out, without generating data you can only do rough guesses. but based on what kind of progeny you get out of it, you can hone in your guesses.
Tynehead Tom
Well-known member
The Long Valley Royal #7 is extremely inbred and is what folks would refer to as a stable IBL. The plants for the most part are so similar that from any distance , it's pretty hard to tell them apart. The leaf expressions take a trained eye to tell apart and it's not as simple as narrow leaf/broad leaf by the standard definitions. What is stable in this line is overall structure, underlying odor in veg, finishing times and extreme frost/resin development. Very high potency as well and a little much for many seasoned tokers I know.
The #9 F2's made by a former member here who dropped them a few years ago for the seedbay server drops, where made from Aficionado's release. These were some high end designer beans but sadly the majority of the females I flowered out popped low plant nanners in week 5. Awesome smoke, but the nanners were typical throughout over 70 seeds I've gone thru in last few years since receiving them.
The LVRK #7 seeds have produced strong, stable plants and have provided good stock for some breeding projects I have embarked on over last couple years.
Treevly
Active member
Wow, thanks again. Since you have such knowledge of the strain, let me ask:
1) The bananas: is this problem common in the strain?
2) Outdoors - I'm in the bush - what is the finishing time? Is there much variation in finishing times from one plant to another?
3) Likewise average height, and variations in height.
I may also have some Oil Spill pollen this year, but I'm not sure I will use it since it seems to have a longer finishing time than Royal Kush #8 (or #7, or whatever I received in 2018 and put in freezer.)
Tynehead Tom
Well-known member
the LVRK 7 plants are stable as far as I have seen and I have gone thru about 60 seeds now.
The LVRK 9 that were "F2'd" from one pack of seeds of aficionado stock, were made by a former member here and seedbay contributer. So not sure what the deal is with those but whenever i grow them outside here and try and light dep them they grow balls around week 5. Not all of them but about 80%
So no I don't think this is typical in the hierloom stock.
That said, LVRK was at 17 generations when ras truth/mandelbrot passed away from what i understand.... which is not gospel.
The LVRK 7 I have came to me from a good friend from fresno california that I met when I was 16 and working at a summer camp for bible thumpers up here in canada. He is really tight with the folks at Emerald Mnt (mandelbrots brother) and is how the #7 beans ended up in my lap.
outside of the seeds I have and have grown, I don't consider myself an expert on the strain by any means. Just reflecting what I have seen come from the garden.
Finishing times will vary a little bit from 56 to 60 day finishers to some that go a week longer. I haven't seen one go much past 70 days and am harvest most in the 60 to 70 day window.
Stretch is moderate, some phenos can be a bit leafy but that could just be from my northern latitude and far from optimum growing climate.
These are meant to be grown is a full rich organic soil to really achieve the true results.
The LVRK 9 that were "F2'd" from one pack of seeds of aficionado stock, were made by a former member here and seedbay contributer. So not sure what the deal is with those but whenever i grow them outside here and try and light dep them they grow balls around week 5. Not all of them but about 80%
So no I don't think this is typical in the hierloom stock.
That said, LVRK was at 17 generations when ras truth/mandelbrot passed away from what i understand.... which is not gospel.
The LVRK 7 I have came to me from a good friend from fresno california that I met when I was 16 and working at a summer camp for bible thumpers up here in canada. He is really tight with the folks at Emerald Mnt (mandelbrots brother) and is how the #7 beans ended up in my lap.
outside of the seeds I have and have grown, I don't consider myself an expert on the strain by any means. Just reflecting what I have seen come from the garden.
Finishing times will vary a little bit from 56 to 60 day finishers to some that go a week longer. I haven't seen one go much past 70 days and am harvest most in the 60 to 70 day window.
Stretch is moderate, some phenos can be a bit leafy but that could just be from my northern latitude and far from optimum growing climate.
These are meant to be grown is a full rich organic soil to really achieve the true results.
