Anyone running HID/LED? what’s with the pastel colours?

browntrout · Dec 22, 2020

Good day, recently bought two Mars hydro TS1000 to go on either side of my air cooled 1000W HID. I found the 1000w not quite enough light for a 4’x8’ tent.

I assume the mixed spectrum of LEDs along side the tried and true MH/HPS could be a wonderful thing. Although I’ve not seen much in the way of TS1000’s beside a 1000w.

I notice the growth from these LEDs along with my old spectrum king make for some odd pastel “crayon” like colors in plants, typically a more matte finish and light green where HIDs are typically more glossy in finish and darker forest green. Is this due to a specific spectrum?

I also notice plants grown under LEDs appear distressed, as in leaf imperfections and lighter tips. Is this a result of being able to see the imperfections or is there detriment from this type of lighting?

Cheers

unclefishstick · Dec 22, 2020

i think the ts1000 is a bit underpower for hanging along with a 1000w lamp so without seeing pics i would say the plants under the leds are underlit...

i'm running gavitas and sp250s in my main room with no problem...

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browntrout · Dec 22, 2020

unclefishstick said:
i think the ts1000 is a bit underpower for hanging along with a 1000w lamp so without seeing pics i would say the plants under the leds are underlit...

i'm running gavitas and sp250s in my main room with no problem...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]View Image[/FONT]

Hello Mr. Fishsticks! What strain is that? Are those from seeds? They look pretty tall/ long internode spacing? Is that from the Orange/red spectrum of the Gavitas/LEDs?

The two ts1000’s are on either side of the 1000w HID in a 4x8. I just turned the HID on the other day, just seedlings and a couple clones at this stage. Like I said same growth as my old spectrum king LED, which happened to be 400w actual. A ts1000 would surely be underlit in a 4x8 by itself, no question there.

Nothing is under lit at this stage, nice burly compact growth.

unclefishstick · Dec 22, 2020

there's like 10 different strains in there...yeah,they kinda took off on me,i had the lamps hung wrong so the spacing was off and i was only running the gavitas at 600w...it's a jungle in there for sure!

not really possible to diagnose plants over the internet,but often with leds you need to bump up the cal/mag and those symptoms will go away...

sturgeongeneral · Dec 22, 2020

Pics would be helpful. Ive not really noticed much of a color difference on the plants from hps to cmh or led. I have noticed nutrient uptake differences though.

f-e · Dec 22, 2020

Pastel or even chalky with just a couple of leaf kinks with a spot of clorosis where such kinks are near the tip?
I put this down to calcium and increased air circulation to straighten them up. Same day I increased N 30% with urea to play catch-up. Just for that one day. It was fixed in 24 hours.

Along side this, there is a little more story. My pH was found to be very low at run-off. So I added some K. This got my pH up into range. Which being so low would of had an effect on N availability. My signs were not typical N though. My chalky coloured plants were top to bottom. More so at the leaves just below the top. The ones that would make up the canopy

I think the very first sign was the emerging leafs reluctant to spread out. The tops were just a little pinched looking. With individual 20mm long vertical leaves looking a little shoe horn shaped. When they should of been going out horizontally. Next came a slight stunting that was just a bit of reluctance to stretch. Then the pastel green growth. Looking at this you could think the K which is related to stretch.

It's in that mix somewhere. Ca N pH and K. My reaction was a single hit of 30% more N and 30% more K as I was just tipping into bloom where a pH drop signifies a need for K. I looked to my fans to increase Ca because of the distortion.

You will most certainly find Ca and N lacking if you don't change your feed moving from HID to LED. Calcium Nitrate seems ideal to amend things long term.

browntrout · Dec 22, 2020

Here’s some pictures. This thread wasn’t created with the intent of any thing I see as issues, no real deficiencies of any sort. Just observations I’m looking to see what others have seen if similar to myself in terms of pastel like colours under LEDs. I think it’s just a spectrum thing, plants just seem to grow differently.

Not sure why IPhone pictures always rotate themselves...

Light green/matte finish pastel colors. Master Kush clones.

browntrout · Dec 22, 2020

Here’s a master Kush grown under MH only, same mother.

I must say the difference in person between the two is greater than pictures.

dank.frank · Dec 22, 2020

unclefishstick said:
i think the ts1000 is a bit underpower for hanging along with a 1000w lamp so without seeing pics i would say the plants under the leds are underlit...

i'm running gavitas and sp250s in my main room with no problem...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]View Image[/FONT]

This is sort of the direction I think I might go. I've been thinking about building separate rooms for each lighting setup - but the idea of running 2 x 315w CMH in the middle and running 1 x SP3000 on each side, in a larger room, could be a more ideal situation...with smaller rolling beds.

Imagining this would be a 5 x 5 or so...

dank.Frank

unclefishstick · Dec 22, 2020

browntrout said:
Here’s some pictures. This thread wasn’t created with the intent of any thing I see as issues, no real deficiencies of any sort. Just observations I’m looking to see what others have seen if similar to myself in terms of pastel like colours under LEDs. I think it’s just a spectrum thing, plants just seem to grow differently.

Not sure why IPhone pictures always rotate themselves...

View Image

View Image

Light green/matte finish pastel colors. Master Kush clones.
View Image

could just be the different spectrum of the lights making them look that way...

unclefishstick · Dec 22, 2020

dank.frank said:
This is sort of the direction I think I might go. I've been thinking about building separate rooms for each lighting setup - but the idea of running 2 x 315w CMH in the middle and running 1 x SP3000 on each side, in a larger room, could be a more ideal situation...with smaller rolling beds.

dank.Frank

in my case it was more about needing the heat produced by the gavitas...so far the only thing i don't like about this setup is it's hard to take pics...

browntrout · Dec 22, 2020

unclefishstick said:
could just be the different spectrum of the lights making them look that way...

I agree, was just curious as to if anyone had a definitive answer.

browntrout · Dec 22, 2020

f-e said:
Pastel or even chalky with just a couple of leaf kinks with a spot of clorosis where such kinks are near the tip?
I put this down to calcium and increased air circulation to straighten them up. Same day I increased N 30% with urea to play catch-up. Just for that one day. It was fixed in 24 hours.

Along side this, there is a little more story. My pH was found to be very low at run-off. So I added some K. This got my pH up into range. Which being so low would of had an effect on N availability. My signs were not typical N though. My chalky coloured plants were top to bottom. More so at the leaves just below the top. The ones that would make up the canopy

I think the very first sign was the emerging leafs reluctant to spread out. The tops were just a little pinched looking. With individual 20mm long vertical leaves looking a little shoe horn shaped. When they should of been going out horizontally. Next came a slight stunting that was just a bit of reluctance to stretch. Then the pastel green growth. Looking at this you could think the K which is related to stretch.

It's in that mix somewhere. Ca N pH and K. My reaction was a single hit of 30% more N and 30% more K as I was just tipping into bloom where a pH drop signifies a need for K. I looked to my fans to increase Ca because of the distortion.

You will most certainly find Ca and N lacking if you don't change your feed moving from HID to LED. Calcium Nitrate seems ideal to amend things long term.

This is interesting, I’ve read increased Cal/Mag requirements with LEDs. I’m trying the GP3 line up from Green Planet, being a three part there should be some room to play if things get wonky. A lot easier to try things on a breeding run thankfully.

dank.frank · Dec 24, 2020

I've seen zero difference in feeding patterns under the two different lights. If anything, I will say root spread seems to be increased under LED. Plants seem to lag behind but once the roots get set, plants catch up. Just seems to encourage more root growth...which, in an organic soil, means more access to nutrient uptake, not less.

dank.Frank

f-e · Dec 24, 2020

Soil usually has a lot of Ca anyway. It helps in many ways. So perhaps they just spent some timing rooting out to find it before they could take off with access to enough.

I look at BT's pics and find them all a little light green. Which I suspect could be addressed with calmag and it's added N.

Ca is a building block of the green colour. As is the N. I also have an outdoor site with lots of Mg that grows very dark compact buds despite being a low N boggy area. Though that's just an observation.

Carry one to the window BT. Your lights look a reasonable colour to me, but maybe something along the wet string connecting us is messing with what we are both seeing

browntrout · Dec 24, 2020

f-e said:
Soil usually has a lot of Ca anyway. It helps in many ways. So perhaps they just spent some timing rooting out to find it before they could take off with access to enough.

I look at BT's pics and find them all a little light green. Which I suspect could be addressed with calmag and it's added N.

Ca is a building block of the green colour. As is the N. I also have an outdoor site with lots of Mg that grows very dark compact buds despite being a low N boggy area. Though that's just an observation.

Carry one to the window BT. Your lights look a reasonable colour to me, but maybe something along the wet string connecting us is messing with what we are both seeing

Yes for sure, I’ve already seen the N/Ca/Mg issue a couple days ago and starting to correct with some cal-mag including calcium nitrate. Certainly a requirement with these LEDs as it appears for me.

And the lighting is throwing the real colors off for sure, but lighter green than typical. I’ve only fed very minimally as they’ve exploded since first feeding, innoculation and transplant.

But this isn’t really a thread about looking for help, all is well. I just notice very different morphology and colors when growing under LEDs, curious as if anyone has noticed the same. Ive seen known clones here on IC and elsewhere grown under HID vs LED and majority of the time look very different to me anyhow.

But I appreciate the insight. What’s a rough measure for increase in cal-mag with LEDs? Using as directed @ 1-0-0 1%N 5%cal 1.5%mag, 1ml/L puts RO water around 275 ppm. I haven’t had to use cal mag in some time until now, usually using RO and well water alternating, well water being 280ppm+\- of unknown minerals. Usually do water feed water feed or water/innoculant, feed, water, feed, water innoculant. Can either use with watering a or feeds.

This is just a breeding tent for the most part, something to do over the winter while waiting for the OD season...

Last indoor fem project results outdoors in the great white north (Sept.7) :

browntrout · Dec 24, 2020

dank.frank said:
I've seen zero difference in feeding patterns under the two different lights. If anything, I will say root spread seems to be increased under LED. Plants seem to lag behind but once the roots get set, plants catch up. Just seems to encourage more root growth...which, in an organic soil, means more access to nutrient uptake, not less.

dank.Frank

Yeah mine have certainly taken off with the hybrid HID/LED setup. Time will tell. The overall light output is much greater so hard to say the difference for me.

In terms of feeding perhaps your organic soil contains a good amount of lime or something equal. Or do you make your own ?

f-e · Dec 24, 2020

I'm yet to pin down the addition requirement. I know I get 100ppm from the feed that would otherwise be enough, but I'm taking that to around 165. I'm unsure of my tap though it's moderately hard.

In terms of plant morphology I believe the missing IR a real influence. Not just to transpiration but also information about illumination levels. I have been putting the IR back and seeing HID like growth. The effect seems to be about dominance. Despite the penetration arguments, I see better lower development with the leds. However there is less preference towards to tops. Overall the leds seem to produce a large number of similar sized buds, while the HID produces bigger top but stuff at the bottom that's of no use. I'm still working on this but have been using IR finding it holds true. I don't mean far red, I do actually mean IR

browntrout · Jan 14, 2021

Update: Still can't figure out these TS1000s, the majority of my plants aren't enjoying it. They show Cal/Mag deficiencies and no amount seems to help, general chlorosis, odd yellowing/red stems & dead leaf tips on new growth in some plants.

I had thought it was a new nutrient line I was using and switching back to tried and true made no difference, I've raised the lights from 20"-40" in two steps as I noticed the cull plants i placed under some small 20w LED veg lights after 4-5 days became very healthy and lush again.

The plants have a stronger root system then ever before and recently transplanted but I'm just not sold on the spectrum, perhaps combined with a 1000W MH there's an abundance of a certain color? It's becoming quite frustrating, I haven't had anything but lush green well growing plants in a number of years.

The A5 Haze & Bandaid Haze seem to absolutely hate the lighting while the Killer Malawi A5's are growing quite well. Many different strains in here. The LA x GPK/dosidos and GPK/Dosidos x Blueberry don't seem affected hardly at all, which to me lends creedance to the lighting issue.

f-e · Jan 14, 2021

Still wanting more I think. How high have you been? The Mg looks to be your real issue and it's kind low in your 5:1.5 so you may have to take it up with some epson salts to stop the Ca competing.

Other clues are them chucking out roots to find food, and the low light level plants being happy. I'm actually vegging some great looking plants on 10w per foot of cob and wish they would slow down a bit as I'm not ready for them. That power level would be crazy under hids. It's hard to believe without seeing it. I could want for nothing more.

I have some 5:2.5 and I'm using 1.5ml per liter. Mid bloom I have been sticking 1.5g of epsom in each 10L of water, which is like another 1ml per liter of that 2.5 so I'm really stacking it in. It's Mg I struggle with which seems to be pushed out by the K and if I push up the Ca also it hinders the Mg. Most bottles are between 2:1 and 3:1 and yours is 4:1 and I'm playing around the 1.5:1 mark.

Many people will have a knee jerk reaction based on the published ratio's from long ago. We don't believe in that in the UK. Things just need enough. Whatever that is. LED's are not going to comply with the old ideas as it's not a heat based light. Straight away we add calmag to anything. That ratio stuff says the K must come up, but that's just defeating the object of the exercise. They need Mag. Then perhaps N and P but we need a look at them with the Mg first. All added up... you can see why many people increase base by 40% as a blanket treatment. Or you could lower the illumination. You have seen you can walk but not quite run yet

Just noticed that 1% N in your calmag. I have 3% in both mine. For about 7L in a bucket I'm using 50ml of my base containing 2% then 10ml of my calmag with it's 3% so that's 15% more N from the calmag and my N-acid is offering up 10% more (which helps carry some unknown hard tap) So I have a 25% N increase and I have on occasion added some urea when using my flower up to week 4. My food just worked with HID's but did show Mg if the salts were a bit high.

Anyone running HID/LED? what’s with the pastel colours?

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