Question regarding using and chelating gypsum

BillFarthing · Dec 9, 2020

ButterflyEffect said:
How would you all consider the Biomin liquid calcium? I have about a half gallon left so if it's decent, I'd like to at least finish it. I use it at 60ppm right now. That bonemeal looks like a promising replacement for the Safers. Would the additional P be an issue of concern? If I decided to use that as my primary Ca additive(My calnit being the primary of course) would I want to back down on the MKP? It would be at that week 4-6 range so maybe something to think about.

Biomin is good, although it is complexed, not chelated. I would use it in veg through transition.

I'm not an advocate of high P that most cannabis users overuse, as unused quantities need to be flushed before harvest. I raise the K and slightly bump the P week 4-6 of flower and have had excellent results.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 10, 2020

BillFarthing said:
Biomin is good, although it is complexed, not chelated. I would use it in veg through transition.

I'm not an advocate of high P that most cannabis users overuse, as unused quantities need to be flushed before harvest. I raise the K and slightly bump the P week 4-6 of flower and have had excellent results.

That's exactly when I use the Biomin. Plus foliars of the growmore.

The MKP, whenever the hell it arrives, will be during wks 4-6 as you recommended. At what rate did you suggest? I can't recall at the moment.

BillFarthing · Dec 10, 2020

ButterflyEffect said:
That's exactly when I use the Biomin. Plus foliars of the growmore.

The MKP, whenever the hell it arrives, will be during wks 4-6 as you recommended. At what rate did you suggest? I can't recall at the moment.

MKP is used at 1 g/gallon. Homemade Hammerhead has a better ratio with less P and more K as a flower week 4-6 bloom booster and is used at the same rate.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 11, 2020

BillFarthing said:
MKP is used at 1 g/gallon. Homemade Hammerhead has a better ratio with less P and more K as a flower week 4-6 bloom booster and is used at the same rate.

Thanks. MKP just came today. I'll get to making hammers formula at some point after I've adjusted it into my regimen.

Still waiting for my damn gypsum! Other than that, I have the wood vinegar on order. Can't wait to see the results of that! Been using the Mr Fulvic for about a week now and the plants look amazing.

Plus, the run that just went into flower and the one up on deck in veg both had the benefit of the fulvic and the Ca ramp. Looking pretty damn swell. That final veg stage was the big issue for me. I just couldn't figure out why the plants starting stretching and showing def when moved to the CMH from the T5. Calcium was the answer. Just added a light mover with a pulley to get the much needed coverage and things are lookin up!

ButterflyEffect · Dec 24, 2020

Just got the gypsum finally. Doing a test now for strength.

1/4tsp in 4 cups of water comes out to ~600ppm. Divided by 4 should be what it is for a gallon, correct? That would be ~150ppm @ 1/4 tsp/G

So, first off, what ppm target am I looking for? Phase would be late veg through transition.

Would I add it to my regular feed, or do a separate drench? How often? Would fulvic with aminos help?

BillFarthing · Dec 24, 2020

100 ppm total Ca veg and flower, 150 ppm total Ca @ transition.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 25, 2020

Total as in total extra Ca or actual total?

In veg now I'm running 131ppm just with the Jacks & Calnit alone and that's at a 1.25EC. In transition and stretch it's 147ppm at a 1.4EC.

From some of the convos I've seen, 200-250ppm around transition was common. Keep in mind, the cec of my media is pretty low. The 4:1 perlite/vermiculite has only the vermi really retaining any elements.

slownickel · Dec 26, 2020

ButterflyEffect said:
Total as in total extra Ca or actual total?

In veg now I'm running 131ppm just with the Jacks & Calnit alone and that's at a 1.25EC. In transition and stretch it's 147ppm at a 1.4EC.

From some of the convos I've seen, 200-250ppm around transition was common. Keep in mind, the cec of my media is pretty low. The 4:1 perlite/vermiculite has only the vermi really retaining any elements.

Try a light top dress. Like a light snow.

Junior Capsula · Dec 26, 2020

I stopped adding gypsum as it would just settle in the bottom of my res. Not ideal when running blumats.

G.O. Joe · Dec 26, 2020

Salts of some kind are retained by perlite-vermiculite, regardless of CEC. Chunks of limestone do no harm. Or convert the gypsum back to rock by heating it to 145 C or just buying plaster of Paris and adding the required amount of water.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 26, 2020

slownickel said:
Try a light top dress. Like a light snow.

How well would that work in perlite watered twice a day? Would I do it daily?

Junior Capsula said:
I stopped adding gypsum as it would just settle in the bottom of my res. Not ideal when running blumats.

That makes sense. I'd take that hit if I could run blumats with perlite. I miss them. Now I mix 3 5G buckets and hand water daily.

G.O. Joe said:
Salts of some kind are retained by perlite-vermiculite, regardless of CEC. Chunks of limestone do no harm. Or convert the gypsum back to rock by heating it to 145 C or just buying plaster of Paris and adding the required amount of water.

I thought the salt retention is what CEC means? So much to learn.

G.O. Joe · Dec 27, 2020

I think the salt hangs out rather than being somewhat more chemically bound to the medium. Maybe if your nute strength is low or you flush with a hose the ppms will be washed out, but otherwise I suggest plenty of nute runoff and paying attention to ppm and pH going in and out. Adding mineral powders to hydro systems will not work. Even in promix they'll just wash out.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 27, 2020

G.O. Joe said:
I think the salt hangs out rather than being somewhat more chemically bound to the medium. Maybe if your nute strength is low or you flush with a hose the ppms will be washed out, but otherwise I suggest plenty of nute runoff and paying attention to ppm and pH going in and out. Adding mineral powders to hydro systems will not work. Even in promix they'll just wash out.

Hmm. Ok. makes sense. Thankfully I've lowered my EC considerably(Never over 1.4 now) and I've dropped the Biomin except for foliars(It spikes my pH)

My only issue was the pH coming out much higher than the input. The EC was actually ok.

Are you saying that the gypsum would run out? I would think the plant would have the opportunity to uptake it since the hempy pot has the 2" res at the bottom.

G.O. Joe · Dec 27, 2020

Is Biomin yucky like it could turn to ammonia? Whether it's that or metabolism I'd find a way to deal with it instead of avoid it. For my rockwool system I'd just add another watering cycle to the timer, maybe less food more often.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 28, 2020

G.O. Joe said:
Is Biomin yucky like it could turn to ammonia? Whether it's that or metabolism I'd find a way to deal with it instead of avoid it. For my rockwool system I'd just add another watering cycle to the timer, maybe less food more often.

I'm not sure. I can't say I'm qualified to answer at this point. Either way, I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm causing more issues using in drench form. It'll stay as a foliar now. In fact, I'm pushing the Ca too much and causing Mg defs. Not sure if I just need to bring the Mg up to match, or cut the Ca.

I feed daily and sometimes twice depending. If I do twice and they're in flower, the second time is water only and late in the light cycle.

Junior Capsula · Dec 29, 2020

Thats a lot of mixing Butterfly. My back thanks me for investing in the blumat system. Hook up a pump system to a barrel as a res to feed the blumats and life couldn’t be easier. Then again if you don’t have room or if you only run a few plants it won’t be worth the trouble. You run 100% perlite?

ButterflyEffect · Dec 29, 2020

Junior Capsula said:
Thats a lot of mixing Butterfly. My back thanks me for investing in the blumat system. Hook up a pump system to a barrel as a res to feed the blumats and life couldn’t be easier. Then again if you don’t have room or if you only run a few plants it won’t be worth the trouble. You run 100% perlite?

It's a 4:1 perlite to vermiculite.

And yeah, it's a royal backbreaker! Plus now it's winter and I don't use the ACs, so I open and close doors to the rooms to let the fans do their thing.

If I could use my blumats in this setup, I'd have already done it. Maybe if I ever get the nerve to tackle coco. It's tough when you're running a perpetual with 3 rooms. Maybe I'll be in a position to pull a room out of rotation and do some experimenting. I even have a pair of 60G barrels in the lung room if I choose to make them pressurized.

Junior Capsula · Dec 30, 2020

I recall other members on here having great success with just perlite/vermiculite in hempy buckets ala Heath Robinson. But the water lines have to be super dialed in as far as the correct pressure and temprature. The results were quite amazing. I started with super soil, tried rock wool and just keep coming back to coco just because the finished product quality along with the ease. One sack of Jacks A/B and CalNit will last a year, its stable in my res and works great with blumats. Plus you can push plants in coco similar to hydro, but keep that organic tasting finished product, then again my ppm never go above 700.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 30, 2020

Junior Capsula said:
I recall other members on here having great success with just perlite/vermiculite in hempy buckets ala Heath Robinson. But the water lines have to be super dialed in as far as the correct pressure and temprature. The results were quite amazing. I started with super soil, tried rock wool and just keep coming back to coco just because the finished product quality along with the ease. One sack of Jacks A/B and CalNit will last a year, its stable in my res and works great with blumats. Plus you can push plants in coco similar to hydro, but keep that organic tasting finished product, then again my ppm never go above 700.

So, are you saying that people have run blumats in perlite/vermiculite hempys?? I was of the understanding that they do not work. Am I wrong?

I mean, I could do drippers, but frankly I'd rather not go down the hole of a pressurized system at the moment, hence the desire to drop in the blumats as a passive setup.

Are yours pressurized in the coco?

Junior Capsula · Dec 30, 2020

No not at all. The hempys were dwc style feeding off a huge res with a strong pump and lots of oxygen in the water. I don’t think blumats would work in perlite, and I’ve never seen it done. Won’t know till you try, but I’d go with the dripper route, wouldn’t be any different than rock wool just a different substrate.

My blumats run off a Shurflo pump with even pressure which you adjust on it with an Allen key. Each line going to every plant that has a blumat has a shut off valve. After a solid watering with runoff with the blumats already in the coco I shut off all the lines and run the pump. I adjust the pressure with the bleed valve on at the end of the manifold/lines. Once it sets I open the lines to each plant and dial individually. I’ve got a manifold going into two tents off this one pump/manifold.

I ran drippers for years and their solid once dialed in. It’s just more tedious to get even pressure to every plant if you’re running more than a dozen, and I never found a timer I fully trusted. With the blumat system I have an alarm for water spills which will cut the pump. Never had spills that I couldn’t clean with a shopvac fortunately.

Question regarding using and chelating gypsum

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