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The Haze discussion thread

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djonkoman

Active member
Veteran
Plants have 2 sets of chromosomes, one from dad one from mom. A+B. As an dioecious outcrosser cannabis is very heterogeneous, there is no homogeneous cannabis varieties. If you achieve what you say, then you would obtain dad AA and mom BB that is your objective right? AA and BB are homogeneous. there are homogeneous plants and animals (like laboratory rats), but not a single cannabis plant yet. As you stated its a one step winner and it would be a great tool for breeders if possible and made available.

All I say is people have been trying before without success for more than 20 years and its not new. I even gave you tips that might help you (use polyploids and/or mixoploids).



Btw, regarding your inbreding experiment, maybe your variety is still highly heterozigous on most genes, thats why you keep on inbreeding (selecting for heterozigous plants) as they did with C99 during many generations. The thing is it segregates and is not stable, thus we are forggeting our objective of doing the experiment of double haploids -> obtaining stability instead of segregation.




Thule no problem with polyploid cannabis. Just arguing that it could be the natural mechanism for evolution, and maybe some scientist have an interest on saying its artificial to profit from it. Some plants undergo WGD due to stresses and also others duplicate when crossed with very distant relatives (allotetraploids), why not cannabis? More INDEPENDENT research must be done, without conflict of interests.


Sorry for not believing in the "scientists bible dogmas" and their "rediscovering" of medical uses after a century of persecution worldwide for the benefit of the pharma corps oligopoly.

Hala Madrid!

I don't want to stray too far offtopic (just chimed in to correct the science parts, even if it's not strictly talking about haze).
but it seems like you have more an emotional not a logical opposition to scientific discovery. 'no one has achieved it yet so it's not possible' just seems like a really conservative, unproductive attitude to me. also your linking of this to medical uses and big pharma. this is plant science/biology, nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry. the only similarity is pharma employs scientists too, but we're talking different scientists in different fields here, scientists are not some hivemind. if anything you should focus your criticism on the big ag companies in this case, not big pharma.
refusing to read into the science yourself also won't stop the big ag companies from using that science and monopolising a big part of the future legal market.

especially with cannabis, it has been pretty much ignored by most mainstream scientists, if there was any research it was into medical uses, but not how the plant grows.
so it's logical there are many techniques that have not yet been achieved or perfected in cannabis eventhough they have been used longer in other crops, because no competent scientist affiliated with a well-equiped lab would ever dare to work on cannabis while it's still completely underground, too difficult to get funding, to many legal/paperwork loopholes to jump through. And you're just not going to achieve everything in your basement or an ill-equiped lab.

only recently interest from mainstream science is really gearing up so my guess would be we'll see cannabis doubled haploids in a few years from now.

Btw, regarding your inbreding experiment, maybe your variety is still highly heterozigous on most genes, thats why you keep on inbreeding (selecting for heterozigous plants) as they did with C99 during many generations. The thing is it segregates and is not stable, thus we are forggeting our objective of doing the experiment of double haploids -> obtaining stability instead of segregation.

yeah, it's possible I accidentally selected plants slightly more heterozygous than the average, but I think that's not a likely explanation. I also didn't select from very big numbers of plants, so the chance I always found a very heterozygous plant among the more homozygous plants, and that for several generations in a row, is pretty unlikely I think.
I think it's much more likely the initial assumption is wrong that it is so hard to create an inbred cannabis line. I think there is one quote from sam where he mentions something about vigour/fertility declining too much in the s3/s4 or so?
but besides that quote from sam who actually tried it himself, I just see everyone copying that quote instead of ever trying for themselves.
I did, and my conclusion is that it's totally possible to self cannabis 6 times, and to get plenty of fertile, healthy seeds, with 100% germ ratio, which grow into vigourous seedlings. it just takes time, but it's not difficult or impossible.

if your hypothesis was correct, you'd think my s6 might not behave as inbred as it should at s6, but it would certainly throw more mutants and be less vigourous than an earlier generation, let's say s1 or s2.
that is not the case, germination rate went up and number of mutants down. vigour did decrease slightly over the generations of selfing I think, but nothing as drastic as some people expect (and I don't care about a bit reduced vigour anyway, since the pupose is to make f1-hybrids with it, not grow out the selfed line like it is). and I have noticed no effect on fertiliy at all, never encountered a sterile plant (only lethal mutants that won't make it past seedling stage, which is effectively sterile too).
 

gonanchoa

Active member
do you mean a specific durban poison willy ,
or "the" durban poison ,
because its been around a very long time , long before seed banks etc
i havent grown any from seed banks , just some i got direct from africa ,
and im pretty sure the stuff i got was not crossed with indica ...

Hey Donald Mallard I think there is a pretty old durban poison cutting that was worked toward being a fast sativa and is not as wild as mosts durban seeds available. If I dont remember wrong, one of the varieties Sam skunkman claimed.
 

willydread

Dread & Alive
Veteran
do you mean a specific durban poison willy ,
or "the" durban poison ,
because its been around a very long time , long before seed banks etc
i havent grown any from seed banks , just some i got direct from africa ,
and im pretty sure the stuff i got was not crossed with indica ...

I know three types of Durban, so called Dutch Durban, which should be Sam / Mel Frank's, hybrid and fast (but I found some tasty pheno), cbg's Durban, which should come from afropips, I've never tried it but it looks like an authentic sativa (but I haven't seen fast plants), and of course the original landrace Durban Poison (and sadly I've never seen it)
 

funkyhorse

Well-known member
Willy, are you sure cbg's Durban came from Afropips?
I am interested to know, I am currently growing CBGs Durban in veg. I thought this was coming from African herbman.
I am curious about southern hemisphere landrace genetics
They are not from the 70's, neither they are different... both Aeros from TSC and Nachillo from CBG received the same Durban Poison stock from African Herbman here in the past.

They did their own reproductions and selections of course, and released them, but it's the same source. And it's Durban bagseeds from early 2000s btw, but marketing, u know...

After TSC was sold and Aeros was no longer the leader the things changed a lot and went very commercial (incorporating trendy US hybrids, cbd gear, autoflowering strains, outsourcing the seeds, nice packaging and so on). After that and JGL also left, they didn't really have anyone talented or experiened doing the breeding.

I think the Durban 70s release happened after the company was sold. Aeros really had an interest on doing original breeding works according to his own ideas and interests, not just packing the catalogue with random stuff in fancy packaging that had nothing to do with how Tropical Seeds project started back then.

Original posts from African Herbman and his Durban:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...6&postcount=22

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...postcount=3500

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...postcount=3463

TSC's Swazi and Congolese Black also came via African Herbman.

Original post from Aeros showing the Durban when he first grew it, he was the true talented grower behind the project.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...&postcount=566

Hope it helps.
 

willydread

Dread & Alive
Veteran
Willy, are you sure cbg's Durban came from Afropips?
I am interested to know, I am currently growing CBGs Durban in veg. I thought this was coming from African herbman.
I am curious about southern hemisphere landrace genetics

I was seriously convinced that it came from afropips, maybe I get confused with another African, I apologize ....
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
well hempy considering that dj9 is nevs best friend, holder of most of his genetics i think he knows more then you. and hes currently cultivating relationships with actual geneticists to put this plan into effect using the nh21 cut. you may have some early nevs work and your plants are nicely grown but you know dick about actual breeding. what im describing is the opposite of inbreeding. the technology is just now becoming viable for cannabis. if nev was still here he would be collaborating with us. instead of memorizing grail thread posts and making uninformed comments that show your ignorance why dont you just scroll and roll

No need to be hostile Piff i know who Dj9 is and after Nevil passed on he and a few others reached out and made contact with me. If you go to the start of this thread not sure what page it starts you will find Dj9 posting.

I spent countless hours many 100s talking about breeding with Nevil he taught me things and i taught Nevil things i have been making seed and breeding for many decades and i have lots of Nevils old lines but i also had access to any thing i wanted from Nevils new work but i also have many other lines i have collected unrelated to the dutch lines.

Clearly you think to highly of your self and you had no reason to attack me all i did was post an opinion in a respectful way.

Ancestral plants come from the males and Nevil taught me that and who your attacking here is Nevils breeding methodology by the way.

I dont like reversing cannabis i make no secret of that i dont like the huge loss of vigor and massive loss of yield Reversing is not new it is an extreme form of inbreeding you should know that.
 

RingtailCanyon

Well-known member
The Test seed Mango Haze had a Sk x HzA father the re worked Mango Haze has the Sk x HzC father no confusion there at all as shanti clarified that.

The reason for the change was of the 10 people that was given the MH test seed only 2 people people completed the grow that was me and other was Jesse.

The rest culled the plants and called them impracticable as they grew like jungle sativas and they did.

I know this as i was involved.

Wrong again hempy. The current mango haze uses a skunk x haze A father. You and Jesse have confused people for years with your gobbledygook.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Wrong again hempy. The current mango haze uses a skunk x haze A father. You and Jesse have confused people for years with your gobbledygook.

How many Mango Haze have you grown RingtailCanyon ?

I have grown MH now for 2 decades or over and was one of the first to say the released MH was nothing like the Beta seed.

The first i found out that the Beta seed MH had the Sk x HzA father came from Nevil and then i saw posts from Shanti stating it also so i am not wrong.

Mango Haze was a calibration of work by both Nevil and shanti.

The confusion comes from their being 2 versions of Mango Haze a beta version and a public released version.
 

Fitzera

Active member
"I dont like reversing cannabis i make no secret of that i dont like the huge loss of vigor and massive loss of yield Reversing is not new it is an extreme form of inbreeding you should know that."

:whistling:
 

RingtailCanyon

Well-known member
How many Mango Haze have you grown RingtailCanyon ?

I have grown MH now for 2 decades or over and was one of the first to say the released MH was nothing like the Beta seed.

The first i found out that the Beta seed MH had the Sk x HzA father came from Nevil and then i saw posts from Shanti stating it also so i am not wrong.

Mango Haze was a calibration of work by both Nevil and shanti.

The confusion comes from their being 2 versions of Mango Haze a beta version and a public released version.

the others are incorrect as the difference is Mango Haze has Skunk x HzA whereas the SSH is Skunk x Hz C both of these are the male sides of the breed. Sorry sometimes I write things to curb the bs as no one knows what Hz C or Hz A look like so it is historical rather than anything else...but as you know there are many wannabe and smart arses online nowadays so sometimes it is easier to calm rather than agitate...but it is clear now for you? all the best Sb
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
the others are incorrect as the difference is Mango Haze has Skunk x HzA whereas the SSH is Skunk x Hz C both of these are the male sides of the breed. Sorry sometimes I write things to curb the bs as no one knows what Hz C or Hz A look like so it is historical rather than anything else...but as you know there are many wannabe and smart arses online nowadays so sometimes it is easier to calm rather than agitate...but it is clear now for you? all the best Sb



I have a picture of the 5HzA Nevils haze mom growing out doors but i was asked to not post it so i will respect that i also know from Nevil what HzA produced in the way of off spring he has posted a few hints about that and what HzC produced to online.

Dj9 in this thread also has to and your not going to see big flowers.

At the end of the day both sides of the male family being A or C both produce amazing lines.

One thing that needs to be pointed out here is both versions of the Mango Haze are good but they are different.
 

Hammerhead

Disabled Farmer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
"I dont like reversing cannabis i make no secret of that i don't like the huge loss of vigor and massive loss of yield Reversing is not new it is an extreme form of inbreeding you should know that."

:whistling:

If this only applies to haze plants I have no clue with my limited experience with them. I don't see this at all in anything I've made so far. I'm sure lots of fem seeds got made long ago and not mentioned. I've not seen any loss of vigor/yield in S1/S2 seeds or fem hybrids. If I did I wouldn't waste time making them. Many were improved for sure..
 

gonanchoa

Active member
@djonkoman Mate sorry if you took my arguments as personal attacks. It was not my intention I try to shed some light of the little I know.

I don't want to stray too far offtopic (just chimed in to correct the science parts, even if it's not strictly talking about haze).
but it seems like you have more an emotional not a logical opposition to scientific discovery. 'no one has achieved it yet so it's not possible' just seems like a really conservative, unproductive attitude to me.( I said it is not new, it has been tested in many crops and many people have been trying in cannabis in the last 2 decades without success as far as I know) also your linking of this to medical uses and big pharma. this is plant science/biology, nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry. the only similarity is pharma employs scientists too, but we're talking different scientists in different fields here, scientists are not some hivemind. if anything you should focus your criticism on the big ag companies in this case, not big pharma.
refusing to read into the science yourself also won't stop the big ag companies from using that science and monopolising a big part of the future legal market. (I think you are the one who didn't read latest cannabis research in the last 20 years, you would know people are already trying. I even have told you a couple people who probably know more than you and me because they wanted to try and/or are on top of most recent research.)

especially with cannabis, it has been pretty much ignored by most mainstream scientists, if there was any research it was into medical uses, but not how the plant grows.
(Scientists are arrogant sometimes and trying to solve the world has made some of the worst catastrophes: chernobyl, Lamarkism, mao sparrow campaign, etc. I have studied science, and for example they don't teach nowadays "sophistic refutations". You should be more humble, we are walking on the shoulder of giants and you are pissing in their neck. Cannabis is probably one of the first cultivated crops and you can learn more from history and experience than from scientific books, something "lab rats"-w/o prof experience out of a lab- do not understand)
so it's logical there are many techniques that have not yet been achieved or perfected in cannabis eventhough they have been used longer in other crops, because no competent scientist affiliated with a well-equiped lab would ever dare to work on cannabis while it's still completely underground, too difficult to get funding, to many legal/paperwork loopholes to jump through. And you're just not going to achieve everything in your basement or an ill-equiped lab.
(in fact, as I have mentioned, best drug cannabis has been maintained in "ill-equiped lab" by growers and specially plant lovers. That is why those are the varieties and cuttings "scientist" are using nowadays and certified seeds are crap. All the regulatory problems and the reefer madness was promoted to erradicate cannabis from backyards because it was cheap and its more profitable to sell opioids or sativex. Now those who forbid it want us to buy it from them only. You see the trick / scam? Don't you see its not a discovery but a rediscovery of something we used and they want us to forget?)

only recently interest from mainstream science is really gearing up so my guess would be we'll see cannabis doubled haploids in a few years from now.
(As stated, I'm not sure why it didn't work for those trying to achieve DH, but people who have tried didn't succeed. Ask them first, if you DO THE SAME, you will get the SAME RESULT. I didn't say it is impossible. AGAIN, I even gave you a tip that has been used with other plants: use polyploids and/or mixoploids which is associated with apomixis-probably an easier and faster way to obtain a clone-seed.)


yeah, it's possible I accidentally selected plants slightly more heterozygous than the average, but I think that's not a likely explanation. I also didn't select from very big numbers of plants, so the chance I always found a very heterozygous plant among the more homozygous plants, and that for several generations in a row, is pretty unlikely I think.
I think it's much more likely the initial assumption is wrong that it is so hard to create an inbred cannabis line. I think there is one quote from sam where he mentions something about vigour/fertility declining too much in the s3/s4 or so?
but besides that quote from sam who actually tried it himself, I just see everyone copying that quote instead of ever trying for themselves. (it has been tried by many, growers have been trying to improve cannabis all history long because most would use seeds from the best plants of the previous season for sowing the next season. Thats why there are traditional breeding techniques and have been working pretty well, but it takes time and effort. )
I did, and my conclusion is that it's totally possible to self cannabis 6 times, and to get plenty of fertile, healthy seeds, with 100% germ ratio, which grow into vigourous seedlings. it just takes time, but it's not difficult or impossible. (is it stable? by selfing heterogeneous plants, genes segregate and no stabilization is achieved. Stability is the objective right? or is it to get 100% germination of vigorous plants? why are you inbreeding? Have you thought that those "mutant plants" were the homogeneous plants you were looking for and were highly "inbred" (lack of heterosis)? )

if your hypothesis was correct, you'd think my s6 might not behave as inbred as it should at s6, but it would certainly throw more mutants and be less vigourous than an earlier generation, let's say s1 or s2.
that is not the case, germination rate went up and number of mutants down. vigour did decrease slightly over the generations of selfing I think, but nothing as drastic as some people expect (and I don't care about a bit reduced vigour anyway, since the pupose is to make f1-hybrids with it, not grow out the selfed line like it is). and I have noticed no effect on fertiliy at all, never encountered a sterile plant (only lethal mutants that won't make it past seedling stage, which is effectively sterile too).(no, you are misunderstanding me. Ask skunkman, djshort, or many of the breeders from the forum. over the years most take time to reply to most people. You probably wont outsmart someone who has been studying and working on cannabis 50 years and might learn something from reading/listening to them)
 

gonanchoa

Active member
If this only applies to haze plants I have no clue with my limited experience with them. I don't see this at all in anything I've made so far. I'm sure lots of fem seeds got made long ago and not mentioned. I've not seen any loss of vigor/yield in S1/S2 seeds or fem hybrids. If I did I wouldn't waste time making them. Many were improved for sure..

Hammerhead I think we were talking abt reverse BREEDING, double haploids. not reversing sex to make S1, S2.... hahaha

A double haploid is 100% homozigous and will breed true for all traits.... by reverse breeding an f1, you could obtain the P0 generation to obtain a seedlot of pure f1s perfectly similar to the selected cutting (clone-seed). It sound science fiction, but has been done on many crops. No one has had success with cannabis yet as far as I know....
 

Hammerhead

Disabled Farmer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Hammerhead I think we were talking abt reverse BREEDING, double haploids. not reversing sex to make S1, S2.... hahaha

A double haploid is 100% homozigous and will breed true for all traits.... by reverse breeding an f1, you could obtain the P0 generation to obtain a seedlot of pure f1s perfectly similar to the selected cutting (clone-seed). It sound science fiction, but has been done on many crops. No one has had success with cannabis yet as far as I know....

Oh, my bad.. I thought I just read reverse breeding hasn't been successful with cannabis?. Not sure how vigor and yield would be known
 
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Fitzera

Active member
If this only applies to haze plants I have no clue with my limited experience with them. I don't see this at all in anything I've made so far. I'm sure lots of fem seeds got made long ago and not mentioned. I've not seen any loss of vigor/yield in S1/S2 seeds or fem hybrids. If I did I wouldn't waste time making them. Many were improved for sure..

I was just poking at the reversal part as that isn't what was brought up. Reverse breeding =/= reversal.

The only reversals I've done didn't show any lack of vigor or yield either but they also weren't hazes. Just shit autos I was playing with for outdoor in my poor/short growing season.
 

gonanchoa

Active member
Oh, my bad.. I thought I just read reverse breeding hasn't been successful with cannabis?. Not sure how vigor and yield would be known
PD: I think visual selection as is stated below.

Its understandable because hempy didnt specify reverse breeding.... anyways! lets hope to share knowledge and don't get too angry and disrespectful between us! hahaha we are all here to share our particular experience/knowledge and open our minds to new ideas from others.
 
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@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
I was just poking at the reversal part as that isn't what was brought up. Reverse breeding =/= reversal.

The only reversals I've done didn't show any lack of vigor or yield either but they also weren't hazes. Just shit autos I was playing with for outdoor in my poor/short growing season.

The link you posted did you read the conclusion part

Posted here Fitzera
#13952
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2784905/

There is growing interest in the development of plant breeding techniques that are based in modifications of meiosis (Wijnker and de Jong, 2008). However, most techniques are merely extensions of the ‘classic’ plant breeding practice aimed at more efficient introgression of traits from alien backgrounds into crops. Pivotal for understanding the expected impact of germplasm fixation on plant breeding should be the realization that plant breeding relies heavily on the human eye for the selection of breeding lines. It is not difficult to imagine that selection for (overdominant) complex traits or QTLs is a daunting task. Visual selection is therefore always accompanied by extensive testcrosses aimed at control avoiding the loss of valuable traits during selection. Methods that allow the fixation of elite germplasm (apomixis and reverse breeding) provide alternatives to this selection process. Though reverse breeding may appear more complex than apomixis at a first glance, it does not suffer from the drawback of the current knowledge of apomixis where the three mechanisms essential for apomixis (apomeiosis, parthenogenesis and endosperm formation) have to be operational and synchronized (Koltunow and Grossniklaus, 2003). As a plant breeding tool, reverse breeding may be regarded more versatile as its controlled deconstruction of complex genotypes into homozygous parental lines allows the further improvement of these lines by classic breeding methods.

Now if the males carry the ancestral information and we are trying to dig out ancestral plants how you going to achieve that by using females ?

Genetic control of apomixis

Apomixis is wide spread and occurs in more than 400 species that are found in 40 angiosperm families (Nogler 1984, Carman 1997). Apomixis is restricted to polyploids and is generally a dominant trait only affecting female reproduction. The components of apomixis comprise the absence of meiosis (apomeiosis), embryogenesis in absence of fertilization (parthenogenesis) and functional endosperm development (Richards 1986). Although apomixis has been classified in two types there are numerous variants of the phenomenon (Nogler 1984, Crane 2001). The processes of apomeiosis, gametogenesis and embryogenesis vary between apomictic species as well as in individuals within a single genotype. This complexity in classifying the different mechanisms of apomixis is confirmed when genetic analysis of apomictic development is performed.

Reports on the genetic control of apomixis are often contradictory and show no clear consensus on the number of genes involved in the phenomena. Most analyses state that apomeiosis is controlled by a single dominant mendelian factor that is generally located in a chromosomal segment not subject to recombination (Grimanelli et al. 2001). The precise size and number of genes located in this region are not known. The fact that most apomicts studied to date have suppressed recombination suggests that apomixis or apomeiosis is controlled by a tightly linked gene complex. The picture is less clear for parthenogenesis as in some systems it co-segregates with apomeiosis while in others the two traits segregate independently (Grimanelli et al. 2001).



Necessary modifications to normal plant sexual reproduction include not only the formation of an embryo without involving a male gametic nucleus but also proliferation of endosperm tissue. Not much is known on endosperm development in apomicts. This normally triploid tissue, usually derived from fertilization of the central cell, plays an essential role in sexual reproduction of angiosperms.

Why is transferring apomixis to crops still a dream?
http://www.cropscience.org.au/icsc2004/poster/3/2/1/1367_perottie.htm
 

Ncali

Well-known member
Veteran
I have a picture of the 5HzA Nevils haze mom growing out doors but i was asked to not post it so i will respect that i also know from Nevil what HzA produced in the way of off spring he has posted a few hints about that and what HzC produced to online.

Dj9 in this thread also has to and your not going to see big flowers.

At the end of the day both sides of the male family being A or C both produce amazing lines.

One thing that needs to be pointed out here is both versions of the Mango Haze are good but they are different.

HEMPY have you grown the Mango haze line with the 5hzC dad? How does it differ from the 5HzA fathered mango haze?

Thanks for sharing your info, I really am curious to the differences in the 5hzA vs 5hzC used in MNS lines currently.

Specifically I am an avid grower of MNS Nevils Haze Mango, and I think over they years I have selected towards HzA. I am not sure. I'd like to hear your feedback of the differences you have observed, if you are willing to share.


:skiiing:
 

Chi13

Well-known member
ICMag Donor
HEMPY, People are simply pointing out that you are talking about reversing a plant, but the discussion has moved on to reverse breeding which is not the same thing.It's not something that can be done by an average home breeder, unless they have a lab, and tissue culture knowledge (from what I understand). Sorry for posting in your thread, but this is frustrating to read.

From that same link:
Reverse breeding (RB) is a novel plant breeding technique designed to directly produce parental lines for any heterozygous plant, one of the most sought after goals in plant breeding. RB generates perfectly complementing homozygous parental lines through engineered meiosis. The method is based on reducing genetic recombination in the selected heterozygote by eliminating meiotic crossing over. Male or female spores obtained from such plants contain combinations of non-recombinant parental chromosomes which can be cultured in vitro to generate homozygous doubled haploid plants (DHs). From these DHs, complementary parents can be selected and used to reconstitute the heterozygote in perpetuity. Since the fixation of unknown heterozygous genotypes is impossible in traditional plant breeding, RB could fundamentally change future plant breeding.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2784905/
 
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