Where You Draw The Line

I'm interested in beating the bushes in the opinion field here to find out where is the line between growing clean and not clean using chemicals or pesticide. Obviously essential oils, safer and neem are clean enough. How about azamax, pyrethrin, floromite, avid or further? If the application has a short life, does that make it clean? Are there systemics that are considered clean, aside from rosemary?

Ed Rosenthal supports the use of his Zero Tolerance. Have it, but haven't used it. Probably, in part, due to lack of experience or skepticism. Organic and herbal, if I recall.

I typically (in consideration of any fungicide or pesticide, etc.) look at how long the MSDS or what ever safety sheet states the content is active or harmful for human or animal ingestion, if at all.

That said, I've read (on this site) criticisms of Azamax (which I have and have used) Neem-based products, which I've used in the past, but don't have, and pyrethrens, which I've also had and used previously, but not now, though I probably still have a variety of these here some place..

I'm happiest when I can finish a crop without using -anything-, other than maybe Gnatrol (which I used to use for thrips and gnats, and haven't had on-site in a -long- while; probably should get some more.. if I can find a source locally).

The cleanest crop, in my opinion, has nothing the plants can access which might alter safety, buzz, or flavor. And yellow sticky cards can at least slow down proliferation of all sorts of critters, though they do little for fungus, other than to help prevent the spreading of fungus by carrier bugs..

In a case of ant infestations this last summer, however, I -did- use some potent ant poison (spray) near the plants (interior and exterior walls), but not where the plants could acquire any toxins in any way.. But I wasn't going to let any serious ants eat my home, out-buildings, etc... period.

Confessions of a 'tryin'-to-be-organic-most-of-the-time' grower.

Here is a list of approved pesticides from the state of Oregon for use on cannabis

"Guidelist for Pesticides and Cannabis
Always read and follow the label directions!
Updated Aug. 14, 2017"

https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/shared/D...PesticidesPARC/GuidelistPesticideCannabis.pdf

Oregon has very good information. Thanks. I'm guessing that the products listed have EPA numbers, but also a certification from the Oregon Department of Agriculture. Basically it's essential oils, Neem w extracts included and Pyrethrin in natural form - not synthetic. Other products may comply but might not have the state certification.

This is another page from the same site with more info.

http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/programs/Pesticides/Pages/CannabisPesticides.aspx

Zeez said:

I'm interested in beating the bushes in the opinion field here to find out where is the line between growing clean and not clean using chemicals or pesticide. Obviously essential oils, safer and neem are clean enough. How about azamax, pyrethrin, floromite, avid or further? If the application has a short life, does that make it clean? Are there systemics that are considered clean, aside from rosemary?

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Cannabis, being a hyper/dynamic accumulator, is different from most fruits and vegetables most people are used to dealing with. The "Approved" pesticides have not had rigorous testing with cannabis and people. In time, a significant number of pesticides are going to be banned from use with cannabis. Cannabis tends to hold on to chems (organic and inorganic) for much greater lengths of time than suspected.

Many a grower has been told their cannabis fails for pesticides they never used, when it was the clones they bought and grew out which were originally treated.

Personally? I treat in veg with non-lasting chems like isopropyl or insecticidal soaps. I have huge issues with the azadirachtin in neem/aza products, so I don't use those.

Flower? My flower rooms are always HEPA filtered and I take care to only inspect when the danger of my infecting the grow is low. I spray nothing and use nothing in the root zone which would produce tainted cannabis. My cannabis has zero non-cannabis chems in it at harvest time. This is what I call clean cannabis. This is where I draw the line.

Douglas.Curtis said:

Cannabis, being a hyper/dynamic accumulator, is different from most fruits and vegetables most people are used to dealing with. The "Approved" pesticides have not had rigorous testing with cannabis and people. In time, a significant number of pesticides are going to be banned from use with cannabis. Cannabis tends to hold on to chems (organic and inorganic) for much greater lengths of time than suspected.

Many a grower has been told their cannabis fails for pesticides they never used, when it was the clones they bought and grew out which were originally treated.

Personally? I treat in veg with non-lasting chems like isopropyl or insecticidal soaps. I have huge issues with the azadirachtin in neem/aza products, so I don't use those.

Flower? My flower rooms are always HEPA filtered and I take care to only inspect when the danger of my infecting the grow is low. I spray nothing and use nothing in the root zone which would produce tainted cannabis. My cannabis has zero non-cannabis chems in it at harvest time. This is what I call clean cannabis. This is where I draw the line.

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Douglas.Curtis,

What's your opinion of Actinovate as a prophylactic fungicide?

I believe that earlier it was approved for agricultural use in some states/places, and not in others. Some of that difference may have simply been the delay in certification or approval process.

Just curious.

I do use Actinovate in lower concentrations as a prophylactic means of 'safe-guarding' fresh clones and during transplant, unless I see what I suspect to be specific symptoms of fungus issues.

I will use neem until I see white hairs. I am ok with spinosad in veg. BT for gnats. Anything that escapes that I schedule a clean up and start over. Have never sprayed anything on a bud and had it improve it. So not interested at all.

In a mom room I have no issues with going nuclear if eliminating pest to clean genetics is the goal. Just do not fuck with the flowers.

bigtacofarmer said:

I will use neem until I see white hairs.

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I'm sensitive enough, I don't even want the mums, of clones which will be vegged for a month, to touch aza/neem. Believe me, it hangs around an amazingly long time in cannabis. Besides which, safer's 3-n-1 is quite effective for an amazing number of pests, when used to break breeding cycles.

bigtacofarmer said:

I am ok with spinosad in veg. BT for gnats. Anything that escapes that I schedule a clean up and start over. Have never sprayed anything on a bud and had it improve it. So not interested at all.

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Agreed, though I rarely use the spinosad at all.

moose eater said:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Douglas.Curtis,

What's your opinion of Actinovate as a prophylactic fungicide?[/FONT]

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Never personally used it. I prefer to run super low RH grows at 70'ish temps, so I really haven't had issues with mold. I can say I wouldn't believe a single shred of 'testing results' from the product on non-cannabis. I would believe lab tests for residue. No idea if I'd personally use it.


[/FONT]

moose eater said:

Douglas.Curtis,

What's your opinion of Actinovate as a prophylactic fungicide?

I believe that earlier it was approved for agricultural use in some states/places, and not in others. Some of that difference may have simply been the delay in certification or approval process.

Just curious.

I do use Actinovate in lower concentrations as a prophylactic means of 'safe-guarding' fresh clones and during transplant, unless I see what I suspect to be specific symptoms of fungus issues.

Click to expand...

I use this product as well in the same fashion. From all the information I could find, it's safe to use. So umm, herd mentality or confirmation bias what up. I have never had my stuff tested to see if there is any sort of residual effect.

Douglas.Curtis said:

I'm sensitive enough, I don't even want the mums, of clones which will be vegged for a month, to touch aza/neem. Believe me, it hangs around an amazingly long time in cannabis. Besides which, safer's 3-n-1 is quite effective for an amazing number of pests, when used to break breeding cycles.


Agreed, though I rarely use the spinosad at all.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Never personally used it. I prefer to run super low RH grows at 70'ish temps, so I really haven't had issues with mold. I can say I wouldn't believe a single shred of 'testing results' from the product on non-cannabis. I would believe lab tests for residue. No idea if I'd personally use it.


[/FONT]

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I usually go a year or so without using anything at all. I am just past wanting to battle insects. If I cannot eliminate in veg I schedule a total cleanup.

I would like to see a study on what actually breaks down on cannabis and how long it takes. So many people here are more than happy to sell you a pesticide nugget with some fungicide on top. Pisses me right off.

xavier7995 said:

I use this product as well in the same fashion. From all the information I could find, it's safe to use. So umm, herd mentality or confirmation bias what up. I have never had my stuff tested to see if there is any sort of residual effect.

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Probably not too dissimilar from Douglas.Curtis, I tend to have the grow area between 32% and 46% humidity, depending on season. Lower than I'd like in optimal circumstances, but it is what it is.

I have an in-line centrifugal fan that (with zero loss to pressure) claims about a 480+ cfm flow, and it runs non-stop 24/7, pulling through (2) 90s, a MERV-8 12" x 24"x2" pre-filter in a custom made filter box, and at least one 12"x24"x2" VOC-grade carbon filter in the same box, before leaving the room.

The room is approximately 12'x20' with a fair amount of 'activity' in it.

Due to the 4 cabinets within, mostly 4'x4' (all of which have 115 cfm 4-11/16" sq. muffin fans x 3 per cabinet, x 4 cabinets, and two mother cupboards with anywhere from 55 cfm to 105 cfm, depending on what ended up where when/if one failed through the years.

In other words, pretty decent air movement, no direct intake from the outside, and no direct exhaust from the inside, but rather exchanges through other ports in the building that serve those purposes, thus fresh-air intake and exhaust achieved, but 'twice removed.' ;^>)

That all said, I've had very few experiences with bud rot, etc, and only a minor amount more with damping off. There was a point at which I was pretty sure I was dealing with Fusarium wilt.

Typically, if I'm running higher than normal humidity, it's because I need to take my behemoth of an HRV completely apart and do a thorough cleaning of the fans, core, pre-filters, etc.

So I rarely run into mold/fungus issues, per se', but have on occasion. It's for that reason I tend to use the Actinovate; stop it before it happens, and build in some protection while I'm at it.

Obviously if you can go without ever having to kill a mite you have reached the promised land. That's great, but the better question is how to get there without wreaking havoc along the way. It seems reasonable to think that most every grower is going to deal with mites at some point.

Some of the reading mentioned essential oils as degradable and that refining compounds from those oils are where it becomes problematic. Aza might be one of those.

Zeez said:

Obviously if you can go without ever having to kill a mite you have reached the promised land. That's great, but the better question is how to get there without wreaking havoc along the way. It seems reasonable to think that most every grower is going to deal with mites at some point.

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Mites are slaves to their breeding cycles (and russet/claymen/hemp mites are extremely difficult) and killing them every few days until eggs are all hatched will eliminate them.

The issue is really infection and re-infection, usually within an environment where control is lacking. More than a few lights in a room? Eventually you'll have to spray in flower or tear down and the bigger the room, the heavier the pre$$ure to $pray become$. One reason I can't stand seeing 20-100+ light warehouse grows.

Infrastructure to isolate the outside from the plants inside.

Zeez said:

Some of the reading mentioned essential oils as degradable and that refining compounds from those oils are where it becomes problematic. Aza might be one of those.

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Essential oils taste awful and are generally pushed as a solution/preventative in flower by those who have no taste. 50% of the population has a moderate to lousy sense of taste. Cannabis also holds on to things much longer than other plants. My plants go into flower clean and they stay this way through manpower resources, not chemical (O/IO, doesn't matter) means. heh

Yes, residual essential oils, castor/other oil based fungicides/insecticides (WTF is this doing on cannabis?? Um.. wow, folks.), neem/aza+carrier and other oils? They're contaminates which require additional steps to clear out. I've sampled some truly disgusting cannabis coming out of dispensaries and even home grows. I'm wondering if some folks are running grows with untreated pests, simply to provide cleaner extractions? Don't know personally.

Douglas.Curtis said:

I'm wondering if some folks are running grows with untreated pests, simply to provide cleaner extractions? Don't know personally.

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I've never had mites of any sort, have had fungus gnats and then, thrips, regularly. I suspect they've both often come from purchased amendments such as EWCs.

Had ONE person accuse me of giving him mites in some clones I sent his way, but if -I- don't have them, they didn't (and couldn't have) come from me.

I try to NEVER spray anything once the ladies are into bloom; not even water in a foliar spray, if it can be avoided.

The one exception to that has been when -very- early into flower, trying to arrest an over-the-top infestation of the aforementioned critters, or, once recently, a water-only foliar spray to address a sighting of male stress flowers in a box, and making an effort to neutralize any remaining pollen.

I won't use any synthetic lab chemicals whatsoever. Im not organic here but the hydro nutes I use are derived from plant matter and mined minerals so still essentially natural. Going through a centrifuge and whatnot doesn't change that.

I'll only use pesticide on a plant in veg and it will have to natural plant derived stuff. I will use, decoys, traps, predators and parasitic mold or just a hose but no chemicals at all.