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Old 01-17-2019, 11:32 PM #2641
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:19 AM #2642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyFantasyman View Post
The setup you propose will provide what you are looking for, and then some. Good luck, and welcome.

Great, Thank you!
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:45 PM #2643
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Originally Posted by delta9nxs View Post
at what distance?
It's not a factor.
If I take a 1 lumen lamp, and illuminate 1 meter, that meter will be at 1 lux.
If I move that light up, to cover 2 meters, the two meters are illuminated at 0.5 lux.

The circle math people use can look confusing. It says that moving the light upwards, lowered the illumination over my meter. People interpret this to mean that my light somehow wore out as it traveled the greater distance. This is not true. The light has simply spread over a larger area.

Lets say I have a panel of these 14w lamps, making this 40w per foot. But my panel is huge. Say a square mile. And it's 5 meters above my plants. If I raise it to 10 meters. Nothing should happen. At least, not in the middle. At the edge, my lux reading drops as I'm now lighting more area outside the square mile. That is a loss of light by raising the panel. In the middle though, all the photon's are still coming down, and photons don't wear out.

This is upset a little by a dust storm. Fog. Birds and bugs. But a 1mW laser pointer can easily manage 10 miles over a city. It's limitation being the fact it spreads out eventually. It's not perfectly straight.

I know using a light meter can seem to go against this. Because it's a fixed size, and we expect a certain result. So lets try a smaller scale experiment. I'm going to take my torch, that makes a nice defined circle, and point it at the floor. In the middle of the circle, I place a light meter. Just outside the circle, I place another light meter. I take the readings. Then I move the light up, so that both light meters now fall within the circle. Without reading the numbers off the meters, you can see the combined illumination has risen by raising the light. If you had two buds, not sensors, you would raise the light and do better. Yet using a single meter you might be guided not to.

The drawing shows a lamp, giving off 32 of these photons that don't wear out. You can position the sensor to catch any number. Close up looks good, but then you soon surround the lamp. Further looks bad, but look how much space there is. This picture seems simple enough with only one light source. There is an ideal distance the meter can find.


This image is what we are doing.


Once you get between a few lamps, the distance from them becomes less important.


If you can get the 1 lumen at source, to illuminate 1 meter, it's illuminated to 1 lux. The distance is unimportant. Photons don't wear out within the scope of our understanding. They're magnetic waves, not particles.


I must add, this is all in my opinion. I'm not stating it as fact. I think it's fact, but you can all decide for yourselves.




Why are we still at 108 Lumens per watt in our stores.
I was just looking on the philips site, and their dome was just 95. Yet the filament looking led lamp was 138. While it's a few years since they made the 200 lumen per watt dubai lamp, that has to be used in all new builds over there.
I have to wonder if our 108 lamps are measured values with the dome intact, and what sort of performance gain we get taking that dome off. Just a light meter won't help. The dome is a diffuser and by nature scatters the light over a wide area. Removing just that effect will see big gains at a fixed position below. Without any more light leaving the lamp.
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:49 PM #2644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f-e View Post
It's not a factor.
If I take a 1 lumen lamp, and illuminate 1 meter, that meter will be at 1 lux.
If I move that light up, to cover 2 meters, the two meters are illuminated at 0.5 lux.

The circle math people use can look confusing. It says that moving the light upwards, lowered the illumination over my meter. People interpret this to mean that my light somehow wore out as it traveled the greater distance. This is not true. The light has simply spread over a larger area.

Lets say I have a panel of these 14w lamps, making this 40w per foot. But my panel is huge. Say a square mile. And it's 5 meters above my plants. If I raise it to 10 meters. Nothing should happen. At least, not in the middle. At the edge, my lux reading drops as I'm now lighting more area outside the square mile. That is a loss of light by raising the panel. In the middle though, all the photon's are still coming down, and photons don't wear out.

This is upset a little by a dust storm. Fog. Birds and bugs. But a 1mW laser pointer can easily manage 10 miles over a city. It's limitation being the fact it spreads out eventually. It's not perfectly straight.

I know using a light meter can seem to go against this. Because it's a fixed size, and we expect a certain result. So lets try a smaller scale experiment. I'm going to take my torch, that makes a nice defined circle, and point it at the floor. In the middle of the circle, I place a light meter. Just outside the circle, I place another light meter. I take the readings. Then I move the light up, so that both light meters now fall within the circle. Without reading the numbers off the meters, you can see the combined illumination has risen by raising the light. If you had two buds, not sensors, you would raise the light and do better. Yet using a single meter you might be guided not to.

The drawing shows a lamp, giving off 32 of these photons that don't wear out. You can position the sensor to catch any number. Close up looks good, but then you soon surround the lamp. Further looks bad, but look how much space there is. This picture seems simple enough with only one light source. There is an ideal distance the meter can find.
View Image

This image is what we are doing.
View Image

Once you get between a few lamps, the distance from them becomes less important.


If you can get the 1 lumen at source, to illuminate 1 meter, it's illuminated to 1 lux. The distance is unimportant. Photons don't wear out within the scope of our understanding. They're magnetic waves, not particles.


I must add, this is all in my opinion. I'm not stating it as fact. I think it's fact, but you can all decide for yourselves.




Why are we still at 108 Lumens per watt in our stores.
I was just looking on the philips site, and their dome was just 95. Yet the filament looking led lamp was 138. While it's a few years since they made the 200 lumen per watt dubai lamp, that has to be used in all new builds over there.
I have to wonder if our 108 lamps are measured values with the dome intact, and what sort of performance gain we get taking that dome off. Just a light meter won't help. The dome is a diffuser and by nature scatters the light over a wide area. Removing just that effect will see big gains at a fixed position below. Without any more light leaving the lamp.
Lumens are measured with the domes on. Lumens are measured by putting a light inside a spherical device. The sphere measures light hitting the surface 1ft from the bulb.

LED manufacturers use the sphere to spread/diffuse the light so it's more 'usable' in terms of what we humans use most light bulbs for, ie omnidirectional lighting, not flashlight style lighting.

We the growers take advantage of this and remove the globe. In addition to it increasing the lumens that would be read in the device measuring them if it was stuck back in there. It gives us the advantage of using an increased light source that is directed instead of spread out.
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Old 01-19-2019, 02:05 AM #2645
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I had been thinking a mylar lined box might be an option, but it's still in the low 90s and 10% is an error of some magnitude. The globe sounds similar, but I bet it uses a stack of sensors. Too many to build for a quick test.

Good info. Some like coming your way.
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:48 AM #2646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blynx View Post
So let's see how the measurements compare (lux readings at 100x scaling)

10w 2700k LED with lens
12" 24 lux
6" 110 lux
9" 534 lux

10w 2700k LED with no lens
12" 37 lux
6" 165 lux
9" 707 lux
So much bench racing, so little growing.
Let’s just assume based on post number 8 from the 1st page of this thread that we can expect roughly 45% more light than advertised with the globes removed.
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Old 01-19-2019, 01:22 PM #2647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terpene View Post
So much bench racing, so little growing.
Let’s just assume based on post number 8 from the 1st page of this thread that we can expect roughly 45% more light than advertised with the globes removed.
The threads about lamp comparisons.

LED grade polycarbonate diffuser, 1/8th thick, is proven to be up to 5% better than normal polycarbonate. With tests showing losses around 10-15%

"the Bayer polycarbonate generally tests at between 87% and 90% light transmittance when using the ASTM D1003 method, but we have seen results anywhere from 83% to 93% using the integrated sphere for the same materials"
https://www.powerelectronics.com/lig...-handling-leds
That was 9 years ago.
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Old 01-19-2019, 02:03 PM #2648
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I dunno what is worse now. Bayer's secret proprietary blend of "particles" in the polycarbonate globe diffusers ( possibly off gassing and causing cancer?)... or the glare from the diodes destroying our vision, as we go way over the limit one would normally use in a household...

How many of us actually use LED safety glasses, Even with SIL's? I think i'll be investing in a pair.. Even a few bulbs could cause damage i'm sure, bright little lights they are!


I wonder if the globe actually cost more to produce than say the PCB or any other SIL component.. I suppose it would depend on the manufacturer.

Either way I'm still thinking of a way to recycle them all into a cool project.
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Old 01-19-2019, 02:35 PM #2649
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All to often, these lights are overlooked by people of general. I can only imagine what I could have done in my younger days of closest setups when the only thing available was massive florescent bulbs even if you used the circular styles.

Here I am thirty years later, still utilizing the clamp lights and whatever works when I need supplementary light, or a temporary secondary seed station.

With the right genetics, skills and customization a grower can actually harvest acceptable yields using nothing more then compact fluorescent lights and the led.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:20 PM #2650
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So I´m gathering materials to get my first grow going soon. What would you recommend between either a 9W/806lm light with a chipcount of 20 or a 10W/1000lm light with a chipcount of 14?

I thought of mixing 2700K with 6500K but I also found some pretty cheap 4000K-leds (9W/1000lm). Would these be any good instead of 6500K? Or maybe a mix of 2700K, 4000K and 6500K?
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