Need Help Rejuvenating Old/Neglected Apple Trees.

thaicat · Apr 16, 2014

A buddy and I just bought a parcel of land. The original owners planted 1000+ Dwarf and Semi-Dwarf Apple trees. My partner has no intentions of messing with them and wanted to burn them down. I fully intend to do my best to restore them.

The majority look and seem healthy. I've already started pruning them and have found some rotted trunks but they all have healthy wood despite that. These have not been touched in probably 20-25 years. I'd like to get a decent crop next year. The ones I've already pruned, I pruned hard and right to the main branches/leaders. From what I've heard, it will likely take those 3 years to fully rebound.

On the others, I've read you can lightly prune them but wonder if they'll produce next year. Has anyone had experience with neglected trees?

canna woop! · Apr 16, 2014

Great idea ThaiCat, having trees is beneficial for the ecology and you can plant a lot of other things to benefit from pollinators such as vegetables. I have been researching about orchards because I want to do orchard work and some day ow a farmZ my experience (physical) is limited. A few things about apples. Old trees can be renovated and come back into production this process is very lengthy and yes will take there to five years just to get it going again. Do your research about anthracnose and bacterial canker as these are the worst diseases. Younger meaning more susceptible/ severely infected trees should be removed because hey will spread anthracnose. Clean your shears between ever tree with isopropyl alcohol to avoid spreading anthracnose. There are some more pruning tips but I'm not sure how relavent it is.

The main insects depending on various factors will be spotted wing drosophila (SWD), Apple maggot fly and the coddling moth. The maggot fly absolutely ruins apples flavor but the moths you can cut out the moth and eat or make cider. Free range chickens are one idea for killing maggots because they feast on them while they are in the soil prior to their hatching and flying around to bore into the apple

Hth a bit?
Woop

paladin420 · Apr 16, 2014

With full sized trees we prune off any branch that goes up.

Watch for morel mushrooms under Ur trees. Around here the late season whites love old growth orchards.

Lose the partner. Keep the land

Backyard Farmer · Apr 16, 2014

Spray the trees with sea crop

thaicat · Apr 16, 2014

I've seen various methods of pruning. The ones I've already done, I cut the central leader out, as well as the diagonal leads. It's good to know I may find mushrooms out there! It's been basically untouched in 20+ years so hopefully they'll be there. There's enough land for the both of us but hopefully I can buy him out one day. My plan is to start a nursery and revive the orchard. He was storage for vehicles and a homebase for his businesses.

I'll have to study the pests and disease. The dead wood I've already pulled out was filled with some kind of maggots. I was told if the rot was really bad to just cut the tree out. Thanks Canna for the leads on pests and disease...I think I'll need them.

I'm dead broke after purchasing this farm but definitely will check into Sea Crop. That will probably be an application for next year. My immediate plan is to prune them and gather local manures to fertilize them. Hopefully that will get me off to a good start. I've been calculating the cost of fertilizing with a commercial product and it's staggering! It's roughly about 10 acres of Apple trees in total so it's probably going to be manures to begin with and as much Gypsum I can find to help break up the clay soil. It has horrible drainage right now.

Backyard Farmer · Apr 16, 2014

5 gallons of sea crop is 139 and will treat the ten acres. You don't need much, 1-2 ml per gallon

thaicat · Apr 16, 2014

Backyard Farmer said:
5 gallons of sea crop is 139 and will treat the ten acres. You don't need much, 1-2 ml per gallon

Damned, why haven't I heard of this stuff before?

I just saw that and ordered a batch. I'll be a happy Camper if it does just half of what it says it does. The stuff I was looking at was about 10x that and would have taken a lot of other amending.

Thanks a lot for that tip.

thaicat · Apr 16, 2014

I guess the main thing I'm wondering right now is will they produce anything after pruning this year? I'm fairly sure the ones I've already trimmed won't but I'm going to trim much lighter on the others, in hopes of a decent crop.

I've also thought of pruning alternate rows, one pruned heavy and the next pruned much lightly.

Backyard Farmer · Apr 16, 2014

Also recommend some MycoGenesis and BioGenesis I from Tanio technologies

trichrider · Apr 16, 2014

thaicat said:
I guess the main thing I'm wondering right now is will they produce anything after pruning this year? I'm fairly sure the ones I've already trimmed won't but I'm going to trim much lighter on the others, in hopes of a decent crop.

I've also thought of pruning alternate rows, one pruned heavy and the next pruned much lightly.

not likely.
i trimmed my apple hard three years ago and have yet to get fruit...i blame one season on weather. there was but one apple last year.
3 trees, no fruit.
pear trees responded nicely as did the plum...
my cherry tree has sparse fruit but flowers insanely
....
i'm just looking for hints.

I've cleared the ground around them, used compost, tree spikes(once), trimmed every year, and still don't understand why they don't fruit...

what is sea90?

thaicat · Apr 16, 2014

trichrider said:
not likely.
i trimmed my apple hard three years ago and have yet to get fruit...i blame one season on weather. there was but one apple last year.
3 trees, no fruit.
pear trees responded nicely as did the plum...
my cherry tree has sparse fruit but flowers insanely
....
i'm just looking for hints.

I've cleared the ground around them, used compost, tree spikes(once), trimmed every year, and still don't understand why they don't fruit...

what is sea90?

Thanks! That's about the same conclusion I've come to. I'm going to trim alternate rows and see if I get anything like that. There's about a dozen Cherry trees out there so hopefully I have better luck with those.

This is Sea Crop.
http://www.sea-crop.com/

canna woop! · Apr 17, 2014

Thai Cat, No problem man, I am glad to pitch my views and keep updating with new information as it arrives

I wouldn't buy into horticultural salts, just as I wouldn't buy into synthetic fertilizers. Gets the job done perhaps but sustainable? I don't think so. And it's too much sodium for effective soil-building techniques. Maybe whoever recommends salts can show how this works in an orchard environment instead of an indoor gardening situation where you probably discard your soil between harvests?

Look into orchard management techniques as seen in the works of Masanobu Fukuoka, there are wild clover and alfalfa growing and self- seeding everywhere, these plants fix nitrogen and proliferate naturally, creating better fertility and building soil from the ground up. In other words, Do not worry about tilling the soil or what's down there. The plants will take care of it. They create a thick mulch layer over the course of the first year, which is the ideal environment for sowing seeds (clover, alfalfa, vegetables, trees where applicable)

Having an existing orchard is a great model for food productivity because the tree roots have increased the biological activity in the soil, you will find areas where the organic material layer is abundant with soil organisms. Fukuoka has an orange orchard although I think the concepts would still work well. Even in absence of the master, the people at his farm grow many vegetables including ones like daikon radish which penetrate to the subsoil, bringing more minerals up for the soil to turn into plant nutrients.

If I had an orchard I would put my money toward seed for the legumes mentioned above and vegetables, and perhaps tools such as quality shears, saws, and ISO. I would avoid the marketing hype for any particular product like it's the plague.

if you have maggots in the trees, it could very well be apple maggot fly. So investing in chickens could be one way to deal with this. They eat the maggots that are overwinter in the soil. it can get challenging because birds and dogs prey on chickens but if you are out working in the orchard you can try to micro-manage perhaps with movable fencing.

The idea is least amount of work with stacking functions for the orchard. You don't want to put all that work just for apples. Keeping old trees is much more. You have the pollinators coming in, you have lots of biologically active soil, there is more here going on. Even if it's maggots. I read some where that keeping Black soldier fly compost bins (BSF) repels other flies because the aroma the maggots exude. BSF provide maggots for chicken or fish feed and a good way to dispose of food waste (and great compost). I am not sure if you should put maggot-infested apples in a BSF reactor, yet It's another idea to explore.

the anthracnose is that reddish-purple stuff that looks like mold sort of on the bark. IT spreads quickly via tools as well as plant waste so dispose of the badly infected branches. most older trees have it, and we put up with it because they have been around long enough to be tolerated. They will still produce and serve for years to come. The worst of the anthracnose will keep trees from producing anything and i Imagine are removed. Bacterial canker looks like knotted twists in the bark with white crusting. It can be cut off the tree if it is worse on one branch than the others. Also, people use a torch to kill it without harming the tree, kind of like surgery.

Also thought I'd mention that your apples should produce after the 1st year of pruning, because many remaining branches are older than 2 years. It will make a difference for the pruning whether they are tip-bearing or spur-bearing.

Pruning Tip Bearing Apples
By Carol Ponchet-Cassidy
What is a tip bearing apple?
Just when you thought you had your apple tree care all figured out, you learn that you have a tip bearing variety. The idea of pruning an apple tree that bears all its fruit at the tips of its branches can seem a little perplexing, however understanding a few principles may lessen your worries.
Most apples produce fruit buds on two year old wood and older called spurs. The stems of spurs are usually short, stubby and wrinkled. The majority of apple varieties belong to the spur bearing group.
Tip bearing apples fall into two groups. There are the “partial tip bearers” that bear their fruit on spurs just like the regular old varieties, but they also bear at the tips of branches. Generally, these varieties are all pruned in the same way as the spur bearing apples.
The second group are the true tip bearers. These varieties produce fruit buds at the tip of slender shoots that grew last year. The fruit bud will be considerably larger and more swollen in appearance than a vegetative bud. It’s not uncommon to find the odd spur on a tip bearing tree, but they tend to be sparse. The habit and appearance of tip bearing apple trees tends to be rather leggy and gaunt looking.
Pruning a tip bearing apple variety.
When pruning a known tip bearing variety of apple, the general rules apply. As always, the 3 D’s are observed, i.e. dead, diseased and damaged wood is removed. Spacing of branches is done to remove any crowded or crossing branches.
Trees trained in the “central leader” style should have their leaders pruned back annually. The central leader is the highest, most vertical branch of the tree. Generally, it continues with the line of the trunk. After it has been isolated, and any competition with it has been removed, it is a good idea to head it back (shorten it) by anywhere from half to two-thirds of its height. This helps promote growth of lateral (or horizontal) branches. A good rule of thumb: if the leader grew vigorously, cut less; if it grew weakly, cut more. Remember, the more you cut, the more it grows!
Trees trained in the “open-vase” style need to have the inside half of the vase kept clear annually for good air circulation and light penetration. Whether “central leader” or “open vase”, the remaining branches need to be thinned for air circulation and light penetration. All of this sounds familiar so far, right?
Where pruning tip bearing varieties differ from spur bearing varieties is that attention must be paid to the young shoots that grew off main branches last year. Those that are less than 9 inches in length can simply be left untouched to bear their fruit next year. The shoots that are longer than 9 inches can be headed back to 4 – 5 buds. These buds will then develop shoots the following summer and become fruitful the summer after that.
Not for duplication. Property of the author.
Provided by: Le Coteau Farms Nursery & Garden Centre
304 Walton Place, Victoria, B.C. (t)250-658-5888 (f)250-658-0545 farms@lecoteau.com ~ www.lecoteau.com

The “Solen System” for Tip Bearing Apple Varieties.
If you are planting a young tree, there is a training system that lends itself very well to tip bearers. It is called the “Solen” system and was developed by Mr. J.M. Lespinasse at the INRA Fruit Breeding Station in Angers, France.1 The “Solen” is low domed in appearance and tends to have bent drooping branches.
The young tree is left unpruned for the first 2 years after planting. Then, 2 strong branches at 1.2 – 1.5 meters on the trunk are bent and tied onto wires. The rest of the wood on the tree is removed. This aggressive pruning does result in a couple of years delay in harvest, but the training system is well worth the wait.
The 2 main branches are pruned each year to encourage new shoots and to thin the short fruitful shoots. This style of training for tip bearing apples allows the grower to have smaller trees that are well suited to harvesting. Many tip bearing varieties tend to have a more aggressive branching habit either at the base (basitony) or the tip (acrotony) of the branch, so it’s quite possible to have many fruitful shoots on a single branch.
The Pacific Agri-Food Research Centre in Summerland, B.C. developed a modified Solen system called the “Solen Y”.2 The 2 main branches are trained to a “Y” rather than horizontal. The junction of the branches is started at 0.85 meters above the ground and is angled at 60°. Bamboo stakes are then attached to the branches to keep them straight, and finally, the branches (with their bamboo stakes attached) are secured to a framework of support wires spaced approximately 20 cm. apart.
Summer Pruning
Whichever training style you choose, tip bearing apple varieties benefit from summer pruning. The main intent is to permit more light to penetrate the tree and allow the apples to colour. Simply thin out any vegetative growth that shades the maturing fruit. In so doing, you will have more highly coloured apples. As well, you will direct more of the tree’s energy to the fruit.
It’s reassuring to know that whatever variety of tip bearing apple you have, you can increase and stabilize your crop every year with a little fine tuning of your training system and pruning techniques. After all, our goal is healthy, abundant and delicious crops of apples every year!

and regarding the maggots, from wikipedia. I liked that part about beneficials which is what you'll see when the orchard returns to production (food flowers and fruits)

The apple maggot (Rhagoletis pomonella), also known as railroad worm, is a pest of several fruits, mainly apples. Before the arrival of apples from Europe,[arrival where?] it was found mainly in hawthorns.

The adult form of this insect is about 5 mm (0.2 inch) long, slightly smaller than a house fly, with a white dot on its thorax and a characteristic black banding shaped like an "F" on its wings. When threatened it turns its wings 90 degrees and moves them up and down whilst walking sideways; the combination mimics the appearance of it being a spider due to the wing pattern in the new position appearing as additional legs. The larva, which is the stage of this insect's life cycle that causes the actual damage to the fruit, is similar to a typical fly larva or maggot. Other "worms," especially the larvae of the codling moth, that infest the insides of apples are often confused with the apple maggot. Generally speaking, however caterpillars often feed in the apple’s core while apple maggots feed on the fruit flesh. In infested fruit, the larvae are often difficult to detect due to their pale, cream colour and small body size. The maggot stage has many enemies, including several braconid wasps: Utetes canaliculatus, Diachasmimorpha mellea, and Diachasma alloeum.

The adult stage lays its eggs inside the fruit. The young "worm" that hatches consumes the fruit (rarely will the larva leave the fruit while it is still hanging on the tree), and causes it to bruise and decay and finally drop before ripening. The insect overwinters as a pupa in the soil. It only emerges after metamorphosis into a relatively defenseless fly. It uses batesian mimicry as a method of defense - its coloration resembles that of the forelegs and pedipalps of a jumping spider (family Salticidae).[1] Adults emerge from late June through September, with their peak flight occurring in August.
The emergence of the apple race of Rhagoletis pomonella also appears to have driven formation of new races among its parasites.[3]

Keep us updated on your progress Cat,
\Best
Woop

thaicat · Apr 17, 2014

Wow! Looks like I have some studying to do.

Although this is an important project out there. The immediate need is to get a nursery set up and bringing in money to pay all of it. I've already put 40 chickens out there but can't let them free range yet (The ultimate goal) because of Racoons, Coyotes and a lot of other wildlife. It's 140+ acres and all but probably 3 acres hasn't been used and just grown over. More than anything, I'm just trying to clear it and get it into use.

I've not had any soil tested but feel it's lacking and in great need of enhancing. The areas around the Apples are mostly grasses and thorn bushes. It has horrible drainage qualities so there's definitely a lot to deal with. Once I get the nursery set up, the Apples will be the next project. I can't imagine owning a parcel with this many fruit trees and not doing anything with it. With us coming in and mature trees being there. It would be a shame to keep neglecting them...Burning them is out of the question!

Thanks a lot for your help! I do think the Sea Crop is a step in the right direction. Especially on my limited budget right now.

canna woop! · Apr 17, 2014

Grasses and thorn bushes could be useful if they are not full of seeds they can be composted adding the fertility you need in other words hack then down and let then lie where they fall to use the material for mulch. A scythe could be quite useful for the grasses which improve soil fertility with the amount of biomass they produce. When there is mulch material humics are formed which breaks into clay, releasing minerals (calcium, potassium, magnesium, sodium) to plants to use. The quantity of available minerals in soil is known as base cation saturation ratio.

Clay is the bases For soil fertility if the drainage is bad it will be improved with wild vegetables and cover crops as described. Without clay you are missing a building block of your nursery and that's why you should try to assess how much clay there actually is in different areas of the orchard. If you are going to do a separate nursery I will highly recommend trying the wild orchard model by making seed balls and sowing clover and alfalfa. Alfalfa once establishes can live many years and self seeds, it fixes more nitrogen from the air than most legumes. This is a step in the direction of cutting reliance on external inputs.

Restoring the orchard could provide you with an abundance of food and drink and be a lucrative business for the apples when you need it.

Apple cider vinegar is another thing to mind if you can get it can be used to trap the SWD do your research and find out If this new fly SWD has been a problem in your area. This fly population surged in 2013 and is a threat because it lays eggs in healthy fruit (not requiring fruit ripeness, damage or disease to lay) the vinegar is placed in a soda bottle with holes cut in the sides to allow fly entry and hung on the trees. They drown in there

Best,

canna woop! · Apr 17, 2014

Sea crop

Sea crop

thaicat said:
Thanks a lot for your help! I do think the Sea Crop is a step in the right direction. Especially on my limited budget right now.

I have not tried this product like I said I don't believe in products, I believe In permaculture. I would try it but it is too expensive for sodium chloride, even if I bought their marketing that it's somehow different than other salt. Sodium is one of the base cations so it undoubtedly has a role in soil fertility although I would not focus on adding sodium. Give it a try maybe? I'd be interested to hear your feedback for the product

Later

thaicat · Apr 18, 2014

Just got back from working a 15 hour day...Not sure I have the wits for a worthwhile discussion. Permaculture is definitely the theme with all this. Just going to take a minute to organize and become effective. Thought I'd share some pictures and give an idea of the state these trees are in.

Any and all help/critique/etc of my pruning methods is much appreciated. The ones pruned hard, I feel I pruned too hard.

thaicat · Apr 18, 2014

I now know I should not had left a long "stump" and should had trimmed right to the v. I did some today and was much more lighter...Still hopeful I can at least get a few apples for myself and perhaps some homegrown hard cider.

wantaknow · Apr 18, 2014

Apple juice ,you will be amazed

Apple juice ,you will be amazed

It works like bong water on a plant

canna woop! · Apr 20, 2014

I cannot view the photos for some reason

Keep heart, ThaiCat. I am trying to get to farming and make things happen myself.

It's a critical time of the year around here if one is going to make food grow

trichrider · Apr 20, 2014

rumblefish. thnx, I've lots of bees. there are no blooms...

cannawoop that's some great information. perhaps I've been pruning for the wrong type tree.

Need Help Rejuvenating Old/Neglected Apple Trees.

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