propane open blast?

Avinash.miles · Feb 10, 2017

is that a thing; is it do-able?

i see lots of references to butane/propane mixes in tanks for CLS
but can propane be blasted open like butane?

SkyHighLer · Feb 10, 2017

You're going to get heavily increased pressure at the nozzle connection with pure propane if you're extracting at room temperature, simply use a flare connection on the tube, and a PTFE lined HVAC hose.

I really mean it when I suggest before extracting with these refrigerant grade gases (R-600/R-290) you squirt about a cups worth into a gallon Zip-Lock bag, and after boil off examining what remains with your eyes and nose.

chris harris · Feb 10, 2017

Good question. Extracting using propane change the final product? Harder to purge the propane?

Old Gold · Feb 10, 2017

chris harris said:
Good question. Extracting using propane change the final product? Harder to purge the propane?

Easier, as propane boils at -42C instead of 0C.

chris harris · Feb 10, 2017

I was goggling for info on additives in propane. I see ( in Canada anyways), they put an odourant in (26.7 mg/L), and a water absorber (1300mg/L) in the propane.

DoubleTripleOG · Feb 10, 2017

chris harris said:
I was goggling for info on additives in propane. I see ( in Canada anyways), they put an odourant in (26.7 mg/L), and a water absorber (1300mg/L) in the propane.

Research Grade. According to Praxair (Canadian company) the research grade doesn't have any Ethyl mercaptan in it.

flatslabs · Feb 10, 2017

chris harris said:
I was goggling for info on additives in propane. I see ( in Canada anyways), they put an odourant in (26.7 mg/L), and a water absorber (1300mg/L) in the propane.

You need to use a proper source of n-propane with no mercaptans, not the typical stuff for a backyard grill.

troutman · Feb 10, 2017

Avinash.miles said:
is that a thing; is it do-able?

i see lots of references to butane/propane mixes in tanks for CLS
but can propane be blasted open like butane?

Yes it's possible and it's been done before and it's called PHO for short.

But it's more dangerous than butane.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=186573

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugKaUwkG2Yw

TerpChild · Feb 10, 2017

From what i have read on other icmag forums posted by people with PHO making experience in closed loop systems:
Propane has to be sub-zero chilled to work properly.
Pressures are a very real issue so you absolutely need to have the correct connections, tubes and clamps that can handle sub-zero temps.
It purges easier than butane and creates very light color color oil, but yield might be slightly less.
The pros seem to prefer blends (GW says up to 50/50).
There is also an icmag thread on straight isobutane, which is sort of in between n-butane and propane in terms of boiling point.
I know that all the pro distill all their solvents prior to extracting, regardless of claims of purity.

TerpChild · Feb 10, 2017

I was curious if this could be done using a closed pressure open tube. The only i was wondering about was whether or not the propane will stay liquid as it moves down through the tube or if it might turn back into vapor before making it through. Would you need a DI jacket on the tube to keep the propane liquid?

SkyHighLer · Feb 10, 2017

^ To keep it liquid you only need to have a tight connection, hence my previous post.

https://www.bestvaluevacs.com/closed-column-pressureized.html

That has valves on either end, it's called an O'Kief, put a lot of thought into it before valving off liquid propane in it at room temperature, or just run it with the bottom valve open. The tube will quickly drop in temp with the rapidly boiling liquid propane when you first start the extraction, and then it'll be just boiling enough to keep the temp down, it's similar to your evaporating dish at room temp with no added energy, it'll just sit there. If you pull a vac on the tube, and valve it off full of liquid propane at room temp you're looking at blowing the seals, maybe even a clamp.

I see BVV's out of refrigerant grade propane... Ecogreen, high Sean!

https://ecogreenindustries.net/product-category/cat1/

TerpChild · Feb 11, 2017

Ok thanks SH. I was thinking run it with the bottom valve open and main reason for a closed tube being to pull the vac prior to freezing the tube. Has anyone watched propane boil off at room temp? Does it happen super fast?

flatslabs · Feb 11, 2017

We have experimented with various solvents in our cls and ultimately ended up on 50/50 n-propane / n-butane as our favorite. The pure propane runs we did, while delicious, always felt like they were lacking *something *and not everyone appreciated the unique texture that would sometimes result.

TerpChild · Feb 11, 2017

FS what kind of texture is it?

SkyHighLer · Feb 11, 2017

Slurry of crystals is what I've had, straight Pine-Sol scent.

It's the same as with butane, it boils off rapidly to chill it's container, and then sits there. Trying to capture it in an open container at room temperature results in more blow by of vapor than with butane (I realize that's not what you asked, but that's my specific experience from testing a R-290 tank for residuals.)

chris harris · Feb 12, 2017

Thanks for the clarification on the proper propane. I was hoping I was just gonna be able to unhook the BBQ, and go to work. Guess not.

troutman · Feb 12, 2017

flatslabs said:
You need to use a proper source of n-propane with no mercaptans, not the typical stuff for a backyard grill.

Mercaptans are easy to deal with if your up to it and willing to use chemistry to your advantage.

Ethanethiol, is commonly known as ethyl mercaptan and it's what they put in propane gas to make leaks detectable.

Reaction of mercaptans with hydrogen peroxide will create ethyl sulfonic acid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanethiol

Mercaptan Controlled Effectively with Hydrogen Peroxide

http://www.h2o2.com/industrial/applications.aspx?pid=110&

So I'm guessing a person without access to reagent pure propane gas could clean up propane gas coming from domestic supplies.

If I did it I would:

Passed the BBQ propane first thru reaction chamber filled with 30% hydrogen peroxide so that all the ethyl mercaptan would be oxidized.
This would then lead into another chamber filled with some baking soda to neutralize any ethyl sulfonic acid produced coming from the 1st chamber. Assuming any came over.
The unscented propane would then be be run thru a drying tube filled with calcium chloride to remove any water vapor.
The dry and unscented propane gas would then be used.

killa12345 · Feb 12, 2017

troutman said:
Mercaptans are easy to deal with if your up to it and willing to use chemistry to your advantage.

Ethanethiol, is commonly known as ethyl mercaptan and it's what they put in propane gas to make leaks detectable.

Reaction of mercaptans with hydrogen peroxide will create ethyl sulfonic acid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanethiol

Mercaptan Controlled Effectively with Hydrogen Peroxide

http://www.h2o2.com/industrial/applications.aspx?pid=110&

So I'm guessing a person without access to reagent pure propane gas could clean up propane gas coming from domestic supplies.

If I did it I would:

Passed the BBQ propane first thru reaction chamber filled with 30% hydrogen peroxide so that all the ethyl mercaptan would be oxidized.

This would then lead into another chamber filled with some baking soda to neutralize any ethyl sulfonic acid produced coming from the 1st chamber. Assuming any came over.

The unscented propane would then be be run thru a drying tube filled with calcium chloride to remove any water vapor.

The dry and unscented propane gas would then be used.

WOw.....thats a lot of steps. Seems like a lot of time. When time = money. Doesnt seem just easier and more economical to just buy instrument grade n-propane.

On another note:
Am i the only one that is shaking my head about the original post. I thought open blasting period is just a total waste and down right dangerous. Geez wouldnt using propane with a much lower flash point make this increasingly more dangerous.

Not to mention the difference in pressure in dealing with propane. I can understand running it in my closed loop with all Dixon clamps rated for pretty high pressure but open blasting seems like its just an accident waiting to happen! I dont know Personally i think i waste enough gas in my closed loop systems to wanna open blast ever!

Good luck!

troutman · Feb 12, 2017

killa12345 said:
WOw.....thats a lot of steps. Seems like a lot of time. When time = money. Doesnt seem just easier and more economical to just buy instrument grade n-propane.

On another note:
Am i the only one that is shaking my head about the original post. I thought open blasting period is just a total waste and down right dangerous. Geez wouldnt using propane with a much lower flash point make this increasingly more dangerous.

Not to mention the difference in pressure in dealing with propane. I can understand running it in my closed loop with all Dixon clamps rated for pretty high pressure but open blasting seems like its just an accident waiting to happen! I dont know Personally i think i waste enough gas in my closed loop systems to wanna open blast ever!

Good luck!

Hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and calcium chloride are cheap and easy to get.

Myself, I'm not planning to even play with butane let alone a gas that boils at an even lower temperature.

I'll stick with solvents that are liquid at room temperature.

TerpChild · Feb 12, 2017

killa12345 said:
WOw.....thats a lot of steps. Seems like a lot of time. When time = money. Doesnt seem just easier and more economical to just buy instrument grade n-propane.

On another note:
Am i the only one that is shaking my head about the original post. I thought open blasting period is just a total waste and down right dangerous. Geez wouldnt using propane with a much lower flash point make this increasingly more dangerous.

Not to mention the difference in pressure in dealing with propane. I can understand running it in my closed loop with all Dixon clamps rated for pretty high pressure but open blasting seems like its just an accident waiting to happen! I dont know Personally i think i waste enough gas in my closed loop systems to wanna open blast ever!

Good luck!

Open blasting might not be as economical or safe (although if ur inside and ur cls leaks thats super dangerous) as closed looping but its still a viable way of making wax. Stay outside and wear goggles and ur gonna be fine. I put off making my own BHO for way too long because of stories of idiots blowing their kitchens up. I am careful and have never felt unsafe blasting outside with a breeze and/or a fan blowing fumes away from me.
That being said i dont think running straight propane is worth it unless you are just dying to try out the product. :smoke out:

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