:D Genetic Preservation :D - Breeding

Hopefully this thread is a seed that once planted begins to grow,


with community love and support and blessing may it grow into a large tree!
Hopefully its branches reach around the globe to every small village and tribe.

To promote biodiversity and preservation not greed but giving.
Protect the planet and people from corporate greed, may the corporations
always remember that there are people at the heart of every corporation.

More to the point
Genetic preservation its been said we need thousands of plants to maintain.
In this thread im going to suggest whats feasible for us to all do our part.

If you try and preserve a Cannabis landrace with less than 1,000 females from seed and 1,000 males from seed you will lose genes every reproduction that is not real preservation.
Some think the work can be staggered and only 100 reproduced each crop, for 10 consecutive years, but that is not how genetics work you need all 1,000 females and 1,000 males freely pollinating each other, reproduced at the same time in the same location to preserve a landrace and avoid gene loss. Cannabis is a Dioecious, Heterozygous, Obligate Outcrosser, that is why 1,000 males and 1,000 females from seed are required for preservation to keep all the genepool intact for a given landrace.-SamS
Statistical genetic considerations for maintaining germ plasm collections
J. Crossa , C. M. Hernandez , P. Bretting , S. A. Eberhart , S. Taba
Theor Appl Genet (1993) 86:673-678
DOI: 10.1007/BF00222655

Methodologies for estimating the sample size required for genetic conservation of outbreeding crops.
Crossa, J.
Theoretical and Applied Genetics, 77(2). (1989).
doi:10.1007/bf00266180

Cannabis is a
Dioecious, Obligate Outcrosser,
Cannabis sativa L. (hemp, marijuana) produces male and female inflorescences on different plants (dioecious) and therefore the plants are obligatory out-crossers.

Heterozygous,
having two different alleles of a particular gene or genes.
"the genetic study showed two heterozygous variants"

Have questions???

Statistical genetic considerations for maintaining germ plasm collections
J. Crossa , C. M. Hernandez , P. Bretting , S. A. Eberhart , S. Taba
Theor Appl Genet (1993) 86:673-678
DOI: 10.1007/BF00222655
Theor Appl Genet

• 
  
• 
  

. 1993 Jul;86(6):673-8.
doi: 10.1007/BF00222655.

Statistical genetic considerations for maintaining germ plasm collections​

J Crossa 1 , C M Hernandez, P Bretting, S A Eberhart, S Taba
Affiliations

• PMID: 24193775
• DOI: 10.1007/BF00222655

Abstract​

One objective of the regeneration of genetic populations is to maintain at least one copy of each allele present in the original population. Genetic diversity within populations depends on the number and frequency of alleles across all loci. The objectives of this study on outbreeding crops are: (1) to use probability models to determine optimal sample sizes for the regeneration for a number of alleles at independent loci; and (2) to examine theoretical considerations in choosing core subsets of a collection. If we assume that k-1 alleles occur at an identical low frequency of p0 and that the k(th) allele occurs at a frequency of 1-[(k-1)p0], for loci with two, three, or four alleles, each with a p0 of 0.05, 89-110 additional individuals are required if at least one allele at each of 10 loci is to be retained with a 90% probability; if 100 loci are involved, 134-155 individuals are required. For two, three, or four alleles, when p0 is 0.03 at each of 10 loci, the sample size required to include at least one of the alleles from each class in each locus is 150-186 individuals; if 100 loci are involved, 75 additional individuals are required. Sample sizes of 160-210 plants are required to capture alleles at frequencies of 0.05 or higher in each of 150 loci, with a 90-95% probability. For rare alleles widespread throughout the collection, most alleles with frequencies of 0.03 and 0.05 per locus will be included in a core subset of 25-100 accessions.



Methodologies for estimating the sample size required for genetic conservation of outbreeding crops.
Crossa, J.
Theoretical and Applied Genetics, 77(2). (1989).
doi:10.1007/bf00266180

Summary​

The main purpose of germplasm banks is to preserve the genetic variability existing in crop species. The effectiveness of the regeneration of collections stored in gene banks is affected by factors such as sample size, random genetic drift, and seed viability. The objective of this paper is to review probability models and population genetics theory to determine the choice of sample size used for seed regeneration. A number of conclusions can be drawn from the results. First, the size of the sample depends largely on the frequency of the least common allele or genotype. Genotypes or alleles occurring at frequencies of more than 10% can be preserved with a sample size of 40 individuals. A sample size of 100 individuals will preserve genotypes (alleles) that occur at frequencies of 5%. If the frequency of rare genotypes (alleles) drops below 5%, larger sample sizes are required. A second conclusion is that for two, three, and four alleles per locus the sample size required to include a copy of each allele depends more on the frequency of the rare allele or alleles than on the number. Samples of 300 to 400 are required to preserve alleles that are present at a frequency of 1%. Third, if seed is bulked, the expected number of parents involved in any sample drawn from the bulk will be less than the number of parents included in the bulk. Fourth, to maintain a rate of breeding (F) of 1 %, the effective population size (N e) should be at least 150 for three alleles, and 300 for four alleles. Fifth, equalizing the reproductive output of each family to two progeny doubles the effective size of the population. Based on the results presented here, a practical option is considered for regenerating maize seed in a program constrained by limited funds.










In my own situation for example im going to try to preserve a
"indica" and a "sativa" these terms used loosely
for this project im going to look a effect, leaf shape and latitude of origin


for the sativa im going to pick a sativa from a equatorial sativa (?)
maybe Kerala open to suggestions, please post below

for the indica im going to pick a indica type from the snow Himalayas (?)
maybe siberia im open to suggestions,
please post below maybe include a specimen photo

Additionally im looking to aquire 20-40 seeds for a strain
100-200 seeds for genetic preservation
(if a few of us keep a genetic preservation line we could as a collective hold 1000s of seeds)


Also this will aid in personal breeding projects specifically im looking for
plant structure
bud structure
calyx to leaf ratio
maturity time
effect / duration
terpene content
potency
vigor
unique mutations


if you have anything to ask add share here, only good vibes please !

let it grow!

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Updated below lines 8.2.2023 Aug

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Updates & Thread Quick Links


#356
The existence of a single locus determining the chem-
otype, with at least two alleles, gives a clear genetic
meaning to the tripartite distribution of the chemotypes LITERATURE CITED
within populations, as observed by several authors when Becu, D. M. S., H. D. Mastebroek and H. J. P. Marvin, 1998 Breed-CBD vs. THC content plots are considered (Fournier ing for root knot nematode resistance in hemp. Proceedings of
and Paris 1979; Fournier 1981; de Meijer et al. 1992). Bast Fibrous Plants Today and Tomorrow, St. Petersburg, Russia,
p. 149.

I found this amazing sativa (Kerala) phenotype in the Sensi Star Line from Paradise Seeds.

She had the most amazing lip smacking methol flavour I have ever encountered in cannabis !!!

The high was absolutely amazing, I'd just lie on the couch after smoking a joint listening to Ol Skool 70's music in absolute amazement and astonishment.
Amazing high indeed.... very fuckin spiritual with just enough body to it to keep me glued to the couch for 2.5+ hours after smoking one .35 gram joint.

She was like having an 8 shot expresso in the morning
Just put me into the zone every time

God the high had leg's and she had amazing pain relieving properties especially for chronic arthritis.... eliminated my pain totally

Flowering time was 20.5 weeks (143 days)

I think your on the right path with the Kerela

Truely amazing cannabis indeed !!!


Did you keep a clone?
-SamS

aww love this great description nice photos too ! thank you for taking the time to share it !

FYI I had one plant from seeds I collected in Kerala that smelled just like vicks-vapo-rub this was more than 40 years ago, and the structure was a lot like yours not typical Kerala at all.
I smoked a lot of Kerala weed in Kerala and did not see it in my search, most were slimmer NLD types and often as sweet as bubble gum, most seeds I grew in Calif were slim and sweet, great Cannabis, and sinsemilla when grown by the best farmers in Munnar. I visited many farms near Munnar. I paid $3.50 a Kg for the very best, and ground them all (10kg) up looking for the seeds, maybe a dozen in each Kg. I gave the weed after seed removal to my guide who took me to the farms, he was a cripple who could still outwalk me through the mountains, a serious smoker he was, and understood quality.
I do not have a clone of her.
-SamS

Ganja 13 said:

View Image

View Image

I found this amazing sativa (Kerela) phenotype in the Sensi Star Line from Paradise Seeds.

She had the most amazing lip smacking methol flavour I have ever encountered in cannabis !!!

The high was absolutely amazing, I'd just lie on the couch after smoking a joint listening to Ol Skool 70's music in absolute amazement and astonishment.
Amazing high indeed.... very fuckin spiritual with just enough body to it to keep me glued to the couch for 2.5+ hours after smoking one .35 gram joint.

She was like having an 8 shot expresso in the morning
Just put me into the zone every time

God the high had leg's and she had amazing pain relieving properties especially for chronic arthritis.... eliminated my pain totally

Flowering time was 20.5 weeks (143 days)

I think your on the right path with the Kerela

Truely amazing cannabis indeed !!!

Click to expand...

@Sam Skunkman
Can i ask you what the shortest flowering Plants were you found in the 70s for tropical Strains?

Im interested especially in SE Asain flowering Times. 13 Weeks? Is that right?
Also Southafrican, or Middleamerican floweingtimes seemed even shorter, like 12 Weeks?

I found this amazing sativa (Kerela) phenotype in the Sensi Star Line from Paradise Seeds.

Click to expand...

Boy... looks like your onto something there. Look at that main cola. Standing up proud isnt she? I always liked Paradise's Nebula. Mine smelled like honey, creamed rice pudding and fruit. I crossed it with a few strains to keep the genetics. Will need to get onto something with it, that was a few years ago. But am not really in a place to do the work. But no doubt that one of yours is going to get some ongoing attention. Look forward to the smoke report.

romanoweed said:

@Sam Skunkman
Can i ask you what the shortest flowering Plants were you found in the 70s for tropical Strains?

Im interested especially in SE Asain flowering Times. 13 Weeks? Is that right?
Also Southafrican, or Middleamerican floweingtimes seemed even shorter, like 12 Weeks?

Click to expand...

Flowered where under what photoperiod? S African is not tropical. It flowers faster than 12 weeks, at least what I worked with and sold.
-SamS

Labia Joose said:

Boy... looks like your onto something there. Look at that main cola. Standing up proud isnt she? I always liked Paradise's Nebula. Mine smelled like honey, creamed rice pudding and fruit. I crossed it with a few strains to keep the genetics. Will need to get onto something with it, that was a few years ago. But am not really in a place to do the work. But no doubt that one of yours is going to get some ongoing attention. Look forward to the smoke report.

Click to expand...

It was a while ago I mistakenly let her go Labia Jooce..... early 2019. But I will certainly post a smoke report for her.

Was meaning to do it but wasn't sure if I should as it will be from memory. But smoking Something like this plant from the cannabis world, It just doesn't leave your memory. The experience will be with me for life !

Sadly didn't keep a clone Sam S.

Are the Floweringtimes for the Cambodian, and Durban at Authentc Genetcs Site like from the unworked Line ?

My question is how many genetic markers are you truly preserving with 1,000 males + 1,000 females, and how would you account for specific gene loss in those numbers?
I've seen amazing plants come out of feral isolated populations of land-race (100 or less plants)

Cannabis is a wind pollinated plant
so were talking a radius of 3o miles
when it comes to pollen isolation
I think there has been alot of work lately to 3d map the cannabis genome
such as the result we see from phylos just to name one work
as you see in phylos they have broken the gnome into 5 basic categories

Quoted: "The majority color within the reference bars dictates primary subpopulation heritage (Red - Skunk, Blue - OG Kush, Green - Landrace, Purple - Berry, Yellow - Hemp, Orange - CBD). The subpopulation reference bars are generated from all of the representative samples in the Phylos Galaxy. Population structure will continue to evolve as more samples are added to the Galaxy"
https://phylos. bio/
^ remove space to activate links
Point is there is alot of overlap, focus is on cbd thc lately it seems
other people are selecting genes for fiber seed oil etc
the genome im guessing is not fully mapped although there is alot of data already collected
the genome with overlapping each variety looking kinda like this



its those rare genetics we want to save and preserve feral populations
the whole thing about preserving diversity where there is no overlap
once all the genome that's known is mapped
and all the gene markers are known, its all about preservation
collect and save,

this is a period in time where the best possible breeding can occur a time of cannabis enlightenment





Commercial Hemp is now being grown in India and Pakistan
Isolate hand pollinate or there be no more pure OP (open pollinated) isolated strains



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Why don't landraces suffer from inbreeding depression? https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=131668&page=1[/FONT]



How many? min of 100 seeds each variety to start
Atleast 100, 200 being better

cannabis seed bank https://gbis.ipk-gatersleben. de/gbis2i/faces/index.jsf (search cannabis)
So if the question is how many do you want to save as many as you can!


Get you some wild strains and avoid the commercial aspects live some place canna friendly

Landraces
Discuss landrace genetics
I know you been collecting for years Sam im gonna have to peep your accession list one day!

science says you need 2000 Plants, to avoid inbreeding depro.
Thats specific number for Cannabis by the way.

If you now say , with 100 Plants work fine, then i say: how many generations did you test? Did you do this like 100 Generations? Just the counter Question.

I think before a propper test you cant make any conclusions.

Back to what i seem to here, its that inbreeding depression is not really well studied, its a discovered Pattern at this stage. It always seemed to appear with strong decimation of Individuals.

I can attest, when they re-wildered the extinct wolf, they warned from to early exitement, cause the new re-wildered Wulfes were just a handful individuals sent into nature, and could subsequently die out cause tadadad: Inbreeding depression.

My feel says ive seen it with my eyes, especially in Aussie Lines i see it so clear (just my feelings)
Plants look, well just weak.. It makes sense, cause aussies produce old Imports since the 70s often without so much new added Genematerial, just inbreeding for 50 Years in a small Village quiet often.

You know this pale grey look.... im pretty shure i can spot it in extreeme cases.

Some say inbreeding depression does not happen if you perform selection like a pro.

I counter with saying: you cant really attest until you breed after say 100 generations on a Pro level..
I also say: the only place where we know there wont happen inbreeding depression is in a healthy population at Origin in the good old Times(pre 70s), and any diverge from this approved method, is a possible danger lingering, is an expereiment, and saying it doesent happen if breed well, might be a Guess at the moment where you are at Gen 10..
After assumably 50 Gems (like in Australias Imported Thai Columian selection) it may show, and i feel i can spot it.

In one sentence: if you wanna be a preserver, i think its time to consider aiming on ultrahigh numbers, selected in a community for just one Generation. Until we need to go on.

Breed rich, not fast..
Its the savest bet if you wann save a Strain as it is.

i wanna add: most even more studied people say landraces are inbreed.

well i agree, but landraces are NOT Bottlenecked acording my findings.

There is a book, i guess an Universitybook about how landraces were made, and it says that landraces often seemed to show phenotypical appereance, like a population from differnt geographical Locations would.
Im not talking too far geographical locations... Just a certain surrounding area.

They are not Bottlenecked, and they are the most potent Weed on earth (my oppinion, i smoked the legends)

Here in this book is that Info, site 7 to 26its a very short line mentioning the phenotypical expression of differnt Regions):
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
https://books.google.ch/books?hl=de&...ing%22&f=false

[/FONT]

romanoweed said:

science says you need 2000 Plants, to avoid inbreeding depro.
Thats specific number for Cannabis by the way.

If you now say , with 100 Plants work fine, then i say: how many generations did you test? Did you do this like 100 Generations? Just the counter Question.

I think before a propper test you cant make any conclusions.

Back to what i seem to here, its that inbreeding depression is not really well studied, its a discovered Pattern at this stage. It always seemed to appear with strong decimation of Individuals.

I can attest, when they re-wildered the extinct wolf, they warned from to early exitement, cause the new re-wildered Wulfes were just a handful individuals sent into nature, and could subsequently die out cause tadadad: Inbreeding depression.

My feel says ive seen it with my eyes, especially in Aussie Lines i see it so clear (just my feelings)
Plants look, well just weak.. It makes sense, cause aussies produce old Imports since the 70s often without so much new added Genematerial, just inbreeding for 50 Years in a small Village quiet often.

You know this pale grey look.... im pretty shure i can spot it in extreeme cases.

Some say inbreeding depression does not happen if you perform selection like a pro.

I counter with saying: you cant really attest until you breed after say 100 generations on a Pro level..
I also say: the only place where we know there wont happen inbreeding depression is in a healthy population at Origin in the good old Times(pre 70s), and any diverge from this approved method, is a possible danger lingering, is an expereiment, and saying it doesent happen if breed well, might be a Guess at the moment where you are at Gen 10..
After assumably 50 Gems (like in Australias Imported Thai Columian selection) it may show, and i feel i can spot it.

In one sentence: if you wanna be a preserver, i think its time to consider aiming on ultrahigh numbers, selected in a community for just one Generation. Until we need to go on.

Breed rich, not fast..
Its the savest bet if you wann save a Strain as it is.

Click to expand...

With 20 members each having 100 seeds its 2000
would require some team work
I dont know anyone right now that could commit to a 2000 plant field
most people just able to grab a few 10 packs it is what it is
narrow bottle neck


a 100 plant stadium run very possible


It is not going to save all the genes in the landrace with 20 groups of 100 plants, it is not the same as 2000 plants (1000 females and 1000 males from seed) in one location freely pollinating each other. Not even close, you should read the papers by J. Crossa then maybe you might understand, it requires you understand a bit of mathematics, that is really needed to understand genetics. All 1000 males need to pollinate all 1000 females to avoid gene loss, anything short will have gene loss every reproduction, it is that simple.
Cannabis is a Dioecious, Heterozygous, Obligate Outcrosser, Wind Pollinated, plant, not the same as a tomato which mostly are Homozygous and will breed true even with just one plant. If you understand Dioecious, if you understand Heterozygous, if you understand Obligate Outcrosser, the truth is clear, to maintain or preserve a Cannabis landrace with out gene loss you need 1000 males and 1000 females in one location freely pollinating, more plants is better, but 1000 males and 1000 females are the minimum to avoid gene loss every reproduction.
After a few years of reproductions of a landrace using less than 100 plants the genes will be very different than the original landrace, that is not preservation. It is preservation of a small slice of the original landrace pie. You may like the slice, but it is not preservation of the landrace pie. To think it is, is foolish.
-SamS

I had a Australian line...its been bred one to one for many many generations...it comes out like a tree, no hermies ever, wont trigger into flower by being root bound, all that got eliminated I suppose was the weeker stuff so now it was consistently throwing very huge powerful tree like plants.
Suppose it depends on the task. If you want to save as many genes as possible then you need to have as many combinations of males and females as possible.

ive seen australian breed vieetnamese heirloom, and i love it so deeply, but that inbreeding depro. i spotted in it aswell.. i wished i wouldnt see it..

Some very knowledgable breeder seemed to make a statement that after around 100 - 200 Generations of inbreeding, the end of a line should finally come into sight.

I say vigor is no definite proove for absense of inbreeding depro. First the line will look just a bit pale, grey weak.. that are some more obvious signs (this i dont know but feel it, im think i can see it)

I've been mostly breeding pakistani, afghani and vietnamese specimens over the last decade or so. From my breeder expertise, I'd say inbreeding depression happens around F5+ (geno-type dependent) which at that point is technically considered [IBL]

We can't really tell how inbred our genetics are before we get them its always been a word of mouth thing.

For example the Hunza Valley Pakistani I've been working with comes from a feral isolated population in Hunza Valley, all the local plants are homogenized from decades of isolation, inbreeding with the local population every generation.

I started a project not too long ago to create a "basic cultivar" bred for little to no cannabinoids or terpenes. My findings are that gene preservation isn't just based upon the genome itself but the environment in which the geno-type acclimates.

I think a prime example would be the whole indica / sativa thing is kinda a vague classification for phyto-chemical composition.

If you take a broad-leaf varietal and cultivate it under red spectrums that are higher in the nm range, it will literally change the plants morphology based upon [PARS] which help naturally develop those same broad-leaf varietals into narrow-leaf varietals based upon environment.

Similar with how higher UV-B rays can alter a cannabis plants resin / chemical production, increasing cannabinoid ratios.

I don't believe you need that many seeds or plants to properly preserve genetics, let alone a specific population. I think having a general understanding of how these genes naturally develop plays a greater role rather than preserve them as is.

The HashMan said:

My question is how many genetic markers are you truly preserving with 1,000 males + 1,000 females, and how would you account for specific gene loss in those numbers?
I've seen amazing plants come out of feral isolated populations of land-race (100 or less plants)

Click to expand...

It’s what you can’t see that demands high numbers. Rare genes, for traits like resistance to pests and diseases your garden might not see for a decade - or a century.

Imagine you had a choice between getting a gift of 100 or 1000 scratch-off lottery tickets. Sure, both would be welcome, but one is obviously superior. And it’s not because of all of the $1 win tickets!

zif said:

It’s what you can’t see that demands high numbers. Rare genes, for traits like resistance to pests and diseases your garden might not see for a decade - or a century.

Imagine you had a choice between getting a gift of 100 or 1000 scratch-off lottery tickets. Sure, both would be welcome, but one is obviously superior. And it’s not because of all of the $1 win tickets!

Click to expand...

Pest and disease resistance has alot to do with immune cell response, its something that can be bred for, yes, but its also something that can be developed. Hybrid necrosis can be knocked out of the genepool through selective breeding as well.