Balancing Soil Minerals

reppin2c · Nov 7, 2015

Joe-I was a touch blunt myself. My experience could have been an isolated one, shit happens. But seriously have a talk with him and get him to keep looking for new better sources of materials.

One of the bigger guys around here bought some soil off of jeremy this last spring. It was the tom hill or whatever. I told him to start spraying for pm midway through the season. He gave me a funny look. A mutual friend saw his plants and said he was having issues. He got to harvest but still.

On a lighter note, headed to the post office to mail some dirt. Can't wait to get the numbers so I can crunch them while every one else trims lmao.

milkyjoe · Nov 7, 2015

Fair enough...shouldn't have said anything. If you believe in soil balancing then balance to whatever numbers you think are correct.

I have become more of a get kinda close, work on your microbes at least weekly and let them sortt some shit out kinda guy.

Guess its time to kick me outta the tribe

orechron · Nov 7, 2015

Proof that ideal K levels aren't important indoors is in all the grows on here that either use Coot's mix, coco + bottled nutes, or hydro. Coots mix can test from 8-15% K saturation with Ca% only around 60%. Many of the coco or hydro nutrients have an absurd amount of K from KNO3/KSO4/MKP. Keep your room below 55% rh with air flow or added CO2 and growing above average canna becomes with a little experience.

Outdoors if my K goes above 6% I start running into problems. Above 12% and I lose a huge portion of my crop to botrytis before the flowers are able to finish properly. I can attest that around 3-4% K and 70% Ca with added micros my outdoor crop loses about 5% to botrytis in a temperate rainforest. If the micros are in line, losses can go down to less than 1%. The plant pictured lost approximately 1/4 oz out of 1/2 lb:

I still am not sure about K levels indoors. I made a custom mix with peat, castings, char, and aeration that has numbers at 3%K, 12%Mg, & 70%Ca + added micro sulfates but it doesn't seem to produce as well as Coots mix. Since the custom media is so light, there aren't enough base cations like Milky has suspected with keystone's greenhouse media. When comparing the same plant grown outdoor vs outdoor, the outdoor certainly stacked and filled out better:

I think maybe higher K might even be beneficial indoors. What I'm going to try and do now is get a couple pots mixed up with varying K levels and run one variety in the different treatments. Maybe 3-15% in increments of 3%. I need to figure this out before my next big soil order.

Kygiacomo!!! · Nov 7, 2015

milkyjoe said:
Even though it is not what I shoot for jeremy's mix grows some damn fine cannabis. When he opens a bag...well damn.

It works because of insane biology. The microbes themselves act like cec sites for both cations and anions.

Given a little time and microbe support, like say what MM suggests and that soil will balance itself out. I don't understand it but I watching it happen in a 3 light room we experiment in

i agree MJ!! my plants grew fantastic this year. im gonna be using it again this year with a few amendments and see if the soil gets better with time as everyone claims it will.

milkyjoe · Nov 7, 2015

orechron said:
Proof that ideal K levels aren't important indoors is in all the grows on here that either use Coot's mix, coco + bottled nutes, or hydro. Coots mix can test from 8-15% K saturation with Ca% only around 60%. Many of the coco or hydro nutrients have an absurd amount of K from KNO3/KSO4/MKP. Keep your room below 55% rh with air flow or added CO2 and growing above average canna becomes with a little experience.

Outdoors if my K goes above 6% I start running into problems. Above 12% and I lose a huge portion of my crop to botrytis before the flowers are able to finish properly. I can attest that around 3-4% K and 70% Ca with added micros my outdoor crop loses about 5% to botrytis in a temperate rainforest. If the micros are in line, losses can go down to less than 1%. The plant pictured lost approximately 1/4 oz out of 1/2 lb:
View Image

I still am not sure about K levels indoors. I made a custom mix with peat, castings, char, and aeration that has numbers at 3%K, 12%Mg, & 70%Ca + added micro sulfates but it doesn't seem to produce as well as Coots mix. Since the custom media is so light, there aren't enough base cations like Milky has suspected with keystone's greenhouse media. When comparing the same plant grown outdoor vs outdoor, the outdoor certainly stacked and filled out better:
View Image

I think maybe higher K might even be beneficial indoors. What I'm going to try and do now is get a couple pots mixed up with varying K levels and run one variety in the different treatments. Maybe 3-15% in increments of 3%. I need to figure this out before my next big soil order.

What was your P and Mn?

I found some top soil that will allow me to keep P down around 35 ppm...gonna have a bottle of hypercap handy just in case

TheyCallMeJJay · Nov 7, 2015

Is that plant an example of k out of control? I've seen that dark blueish green before outdoors and they were always problematic and low yielders.

I knew it was an issue with our spreader, I didn't make the Connection with k.

Great pics and examples. Solid analysis.

milkyjoe · Nov 7, 2015

So part of me outdoor. An obvious B def that I saw early. I sprayed the fuck outta B...never caught up. I am of the opinion you want B to come into the xylem not foliar.

Same soil indo with no spray but major microbe support no B issue.

Not sure what that says...but something weird goes on

leadsled · Nov 8, 2015

milkyjoe said:
Even though it is not what I shoot for jeremy's mix grows some damn fine cannabis. When he opens a bag...well damn.

It works because of insane biology. The microbes themselves act like cec sites for both cations and anions.

Given a little time and microbe support, like say what MM suggests and that soil will balance itself out. I don't understand it but I watching it happen in a 3 light room we experiment in

Good for him. What I said does not mean he cant grow good bud.

Also does not change those numbers on that mix.

I am not knocking him. I think it is excellent to see 8000lbs of calcium and a decent ph. I learn from the soil tests.

That sodium level will cause plants to "shit the bed" hard and fast.
Excessive sodium. That will not allow up take of calcium, magnesium and potassium.

Chemistry benefits biology. Albrecht ratios are based off testing soil that was balanced by nature. That balance of chemistry in soil provides the proper home for the biology to thrive.

milkyjoe · Nov 8, 2015

A little spectrum extra and Na is no issue for long. It drops quickly

leadsled · Nov 8, 2015

milkyjoe said:
A little spectrum extra and Na is no issue for long. It drops quickly

YOU know that and I know that.
People who buy that mix and are NOT aware of that will be pretty screwed. Especially if they already planted. Especially since there is a strong chance to not be watering to runoff.

That sodium and level is not going to fix itself overnight even with spectrum extra and a flush.

Also most are not going to use that crap in a bag or bottle. Right???? Maybe some grokashi.

That is not even getting into the potassium. Now your saying cation anion balance does not matter indoors...

Love all you share.

Microbeman · Nov 8, 2015

That balance of chemistry in soil provides the proper home for the biology to thrive.

Finally someone with the answer to the age old question. Chicken or egg? :bow:

leadsled · Nov 8, 2015

reppin2c said:
K is a biggy every time. Your balanced or you arent. The reason why jeremy from build a soil says you can't build a soil with out high K is because he uses the same thing over and over then expects different results. How do soil companies get acceptable K levels? They don't use off the charts K compost. Soil microbes can help but damn they aren't gonna convert 15% K into Ca. I love the LOS guy about page 7 that thinks his way is the only way. It's almost as bad as religion. You can stay in your rut or look over the furrow for something better. Keep learning things peeps

Also the soil with the highest microbial population is a balanced one

Agreed. Reminds me of learning about biological succession. This process takes place over thousands of years. Natures way of balancing the soil biology through succession. Biology dictates balance of both chemistry and also the balance of bacteria to fungi. End result in time is a balanced disease supressive soil.

Balanced in biology and also chemistry.

leadsled · Nov 8, 2015

Microbeman said:
Finally someone with the answer to the age old question. Chicken or egg?

Love it. hahaha, I like them both. but I am also old and I do not have thousands of years :laughing:

milkyjoe · Nov 8, 2015

Never mind

reppin2c · Nov 8, 2015

I'll not saying soil life isn't essential and I try to pump it as much as possible. Seems to take alot of work out of it. I had 3.1% Na last test. Used spectrum and it should be way lower this go around. It seems that all of us deal with high K at some point and the only way that we can figure out how to overcome it is to bounce ideas off one another. High K is ebola status for growers. After a few visits from cali Gabe before he passed my respect level has gone up huge for those that strive for a better product. Hours of conversation about situations where room for improvement was so easy to obtain, but yet we didn't do it. Me included.

Milky stay in the tribe man I really like what you have to say. BYF had some things to say but delivered it wrong. I too get pretty hammered(especially during harvest hell of 4 months) and say some shit that hurts people's feelings. I have thick skin and let that slide off my shoulder. I don't say much but I learn a lil from everyone here and there.

Edit also I think the micro nutes are way more important then we may have once thought. Seems small right but when they're closer things look so much better. My buddy who's post retirement age came down with pneumonia in the spring and I took over his soil mix. Best year he's had. Thanks Mike for that ideal soil book

orechron · Nov 8, 2015

milkyjoe said:
What was your P and Mn?

I found some top soil that will allow me to keep P down around 35 ppm...gonna have a bottle of hypercap handy just in case

P @ 500, Mn 43, Fe 201

Hey is that the gc you got from me in your pic? In the past it has always had a larger gap in the stem and I've also sprayed B until it burnt a little.

TheyCallMeJJay said:
Is that plant an example of k out of control? I've seen that dark blueish green before outdoors and they were always problematic and low yielders.

I knew it was an issue with our spreader, I didn't make the Connection with k.

Great pics and examples. Solid analysis.

The bluish green leaves have always been a good thing imo. Those plants stayed above 12 brix late into Oct. and the K level was at 6.2% initially.

Robrites · Nov 8, 2015

WTF!?
A full page of intelligent, thoughtful discussion with zero bloodshed?
This place is going to hell.

reppin2c · Nov 8, 2015

Does anyone see a problem with using a touch over whats recommended sulphur wise? I think I'm gonna reammend my OD soil with gypsum, Zn/Cu/Mn sulfates. Last go around my sulphur was low and P was way to frickin high. May have even been a fungi inhibitor.

Tried firing up the mantis yesterday and one of my guys didn't notice the air cleaner was loose. There's soil all up in there. Kinda disappointed about that, looks like I'll be getting a workout instead

milkyjoe · Nov 8, 2015

Here is how the green crack came out. But yea it is the fastest growing plants I get that hollow stem with. Maybe that is why it didn't do it indo...less energy

Anyways this is a good plant for us. Apparently quite popular to ski on

TheyCallMeJJay · Nov 8, 2015

orechron said:
P @ 500, Mn 43, Fe 201

Hey is that the gc you got from me in your pic? In the past it has always had a larger gap in the stem and I've also sprayed B until it burnt a little.

The bluish green leaves have always been a good thing imo. Those plants stayed above 12 brix late into Oct. and the K level was at 6.2% initially.

Thanks. Follow up question, were you guys able to go into late November And in your estimation, was that a key to handling 2 or 3 frost? I'm asking because the ones we saw to look like that seem to handle the fall temp swings better. We don't know if it's a matter of the others finishing quicker while those looked like they could use a couple of more weeks.

Granted were not doing organics, I think the principle of my question still applies. Truthfully, in our situation it's just too much of an economic burden to do organics.

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