Balancing Soil Minerals

Humphry Davy said:

Are you asking can you ignore the soil density because if you don't factor it into the test results you will not have to factor it into the amendments?

Well if you don't factor it in the test, then your ppms will be off, they will be lower than what they are on the test. So if you follow a ppm recommendation, like say 25 ppm Cu, then you will may be adding Cu when you actually don't need it.

Now if you are focusing on BCS%, those numbers are not effected by the density factor, however when you amend one of those cations, the factor does come into play. That is because you are assuming your soil is much heavier than what it really is, therefore you are adding more of the cations than what you need to.

lb/acre is simply a weight vs weight calculation in the end because we assume a furrow slice of an acre weighs 2million lbs, so essentially lb/acre is 1 lb/ 2 millions lbs.

So if you're trying to add 1000 lb acre of Ca, thats essentially 500ppm with standard soil, however with our soil that same 1000 lb per acre might mean up to 5000 lb per acre when looking at lb / acre as a weight / weight.

You see the lb/acre can be interpreted just as that, weight / area, for field soil because its the same when converted using field soil density. However when lb / acre, in a weight / area sense, can not be used with lighter peat based soils because it is not the same as its weight / weight. Adding 2 lbs to an acre of our soil is not the same as adding 1 ppm to that same soil.

I may have confused you as i repeated myself a little bit

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I get it. But say my soil weghs 1/4 vs std. My tcec will be 1/4 of its true value right. So on bcs when figuring lbs/acre I am only figuring 1/4 of what my true tcec can hold.

I know it does not work for ppm. I tend to put micros in foliars and then let microbes sequester the exudates. A few grows and no mo micro shortage even though it does not show up on cec.

On hemp being a soil builder, Kempf webinar spoke about how green manure crops do nothing to build stable OM but rather plants that are grown long enough to reach maturity and have a more wide C:N as compared to say clover, build OM that lasts, and a lot of the reason is due to the oil in the plant, soon as I watched that I went back to adding my trimmed fan leaves from harvest on top of my pots soil.



If I'm picking up what you're putting down, yes, your actual TCEC will be 4 times greater than what they report. But also you have to remember that the weight of your amendments have to be adjusted to account for your soil density as well.

HD...on micros. P is what ties them up. Tainio and Kempf recommend 35 ppm P, Sait is down there to. When you start running more P you start chasing your tail P vs micros. That is what you are seeing on the paste test. You can get away with low P with a good microbe population.

Plus I foliar micros/ultra trace to make sure

yeah I use pz1000 and micro5000, alternating weekly so id assume that covers a lot of the micros and the traces considering there is kelp in one of those.

Well as for P, I've seen the saturated high and low, not all consistently high. The tissue analysis will tell us more. But i agree i think biology plays a major role, a lot of clients that are not inoculating I'm seeing more than adequate P in the standard test and low P on paste, they're pH is also around 7.

Check out the work of nova crop control

Hi Michael. What is your experience in adding charged biochar at a rate of 5% of the total soil amount to a one year old peat based mix? This biochar will be added in addition to the standard amendments to bring the mix to Albrecht's recommendations. Do you have any input other than taking a soil test to amend the one year old peat based mix? The mix is a standard Coot's formula with 33% Peat, 33% EWC/Compost, lots of rock dust from various areas, 33% lava rock and the usual amendments to bring it close to Albrecht's standards. Thanks!

Humphry Davy said:

In regards to soil density and lab results.

Michael was right on point when he mentioned that soil density must be taken into account when applying minerals and his math/method are correct.

As for lab results, they are skewed due to them only taking a volume scoop rather than measuring density, as milky and mike pointed out.

I could go into the conversions and I would be happy to if anyone would like that, but ultimately you measure your soil density just as Michael pointed out, we will call that number "X".

You divide 'standard soil density' which is 1.47 gr / ml and divide that by your soil density, "X".

The factor you multiply all your lab results is 1.47/X, except for EC, C:N, C%, pH, OM%, and all the saturation %'s and if you get saturated paste test do not multiply those number by this factor.

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HD-

I think I'm following your reasoning here. If the assumption is that the top 6" of an acre of soil weighs 2 million lbs, hence 92 lbs per cubic foot, then the conversion to metric works out to 1.47 grams per cubic centimeter (cc) or 1470 grams per liter.

So, let's say a lightweight organic media weighs 1100 grams per gallon. There are 3.78 liters per gallon

1100 / 3.78 = 291 grams per liter

Standard mineral soil is assumed to weigh 1470 g/liter
Our media weighs 291 g/litre

291 g / 1470 g = 0.198

Our media weighs only 0.198 or 19.8% as much as the standard mineral soil. As soils are not homogenous, and there's some error involved in all testing it would be safe enough to round that to 0.20 or 20%.

If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the test results in ppm should be divided by 0.2 in this case?

For instance, if the lab test measures 1000 ppm Ca, the actual ppm Ca would be

1000 / 0.2 = 5000 ppm Ca in our sample, because the sample tested was only 20% as heavy as "standard" mineral soil.

The upshot would be that one would need to multiply all of the ppm amounts measured by the lab x 5 to get the actual amounts in our soil/media, per unit weight. This would also result in raising our calculated CEC by 5x.

Michael A

m_astera said:

If the assumption is that the top 6" of an acre of soil weighs 2 million lbs,

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Ironically, earlier, I picked up The Albrecht Papers for just a quick random fact, and opened to this page!

Your book Mr. Astera 'The Ideal Soil 2014' just arrived.

Thanks for your great work...

Yup that's it on the test end, but one point I wanted to emphasize is that lb/acre is a conversion from a weight / weight ratio and is an easy conversion for weight of fertilizer / area of soil but only for field soil. Even for soil tests I do on native soil, i check the density, and factor that in to the results.

Ultimately, if you base your targets on ratios of one another, it really doesn't matter if you adjust the lab numbers or not because they will still all be in the same ratio.

However if you're basing your targets off TCEC such as the K target Solomon shoots for or if you have ppm limits on certain micros, the factor is essential.

It would be really nice to know if I purchased this book that Michael would be available to answer any questions I had of the contents and its applicability for my process. Specifically container applications.

It's nice to see weights are being used as apposed to volume as I would be able to relate to and utilize the math involved rather easily. (Yes there has been debates over weight bs volume).

One thing to remember about amending for an entire container, I usually only amend for the top 6" because that's all I really till. If one was to amend for say 18", and not till all 18", a vast majority of the P will be at the top 1", so you'll have all the P for 18" at the top 1", when you water in other fertilizer, that P is going to tie a lot of it up before it ever reaches below the 1" depth.

can you pros recommend a couple good place to get my soil tested?

thanks.

Humphry Davy said:

One thing to remember about amending for an entire container, I usually only amend for the top 6" because that's all I really till. If one was to amend for say 18", and not till all 18", a vast majority of the P will be at the top 1", so you'll have all the P for 18" at the top 1", when you water in other fertilizer, that P is going to tie a lot of it up before it ever reaches below the 1" depth.

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Small containers. I'm in 5 gallon containers. So usually just dump them on to a tarp and amend

theJointedOne said:

can you pros recommend a couple good place to get my soil tested?

thanks.

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Logan Labs. Both Michael and Build A Soil use them. AEA recommends them also.

Their AEA plus package is a good deal. I get that, plus C:N and Si, and paste. Comes out around 75 I think

You can send in your sample directly to Logan Labs. AEA uses them, but charges the end user more for the same test. Here is Logan Labs pricing directly to the end user.

Standard Test 25.00
The Standard Test package includes pH, organic matter, base
saturation, total exchange capacity, Mehlich III extractable
sulfur, phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium,
boron, iron, manganese, copper, zinc, aluminum (*ammonium
acetate method available.)

Saturated paste 30.00
The saturated paste package includes pH, soluble salts,
chloride, bicarbonate, water soluble phosphorous, calcium,
magnesium, potassium, sodium, boron, iron, copper, zinc,
aluminum, sulfur, and manganese.

Complete package 55.00
The complete soil package includes Standard package
plus saturated paste package plus nitrate and ammonium.

Ratzilla said:

Being I have claimed myself Michael #1 fan.
Here is Michaels site "soil minerals"

http://www.soilminerals.com/Minerals_and_Fertilizers.htm

They carry most of every kind of mineral and lots of organic matter stuff.
Myself I think his prices are more then reasonable.
The fact you can get MOST of everything at good prices at one place works big for me.
Ratz

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thanks ratz

@MB i used the living soil mix below last year and i had great results. im gonna be re-using this soil again this year. if i just purchase the 5lb mix on your site will that be enuff stuff to last me with water only till harvest like i did this year? basically im wondering what amendments will be most effective. i know i wont know 100% since i dont have a soil test,but im trying to get a ideal of what i will need till i can get back to my plots to get a soil sample. thanks in advance! during flower i fed with guano & insect frass every 2 weeks and sprayed worm power liquid extract and neptune harvest liquid seaweed and did great for my first time growing organically.

1/2 Part Worm Power

1/2 Part Oly Mountain Fish Compost

1 Part Sphagnum Peat Moss

2/3 Part Pumice

1/3 Part Rice Hulls

5% Pre-Charged Colorado Bio Char!!

Nutrients in the soil:
Acadian Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot

Neem Cake @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot

Crustacean Meal @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot

Brix Blend Basalt @ 2 Cups Per Cubic Foot

Gypsum Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Oyster Flour @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Hey Folks,

I'm a newb to soil testing. Below are the results from a recent test. The first number is the desired level the second number is the level found in my sample.

The figures in the first part are pounds per acre the second parts are ppm.

I posted this just to get a sense of what others might share after taking a look at my numbers. The lab did suggest a broadcast blend that brings the ratios into line with their optimal ratios

I cant explain the crazy P level. This mix is peat, perlite, calcium carbonate, with modest amounts of fish bone meal, dried blood, kelp and a mineral amendment called "Eden's Secret".

Appreciate any constructive thought or observation.

SOIL ANALYSIS REPORT

DESIRED DESIRED LAB Soil Index
UNIT RATIO LEVEL RESULTS

HUMUS 30-40 15
NITRATES lbs. / Acre 40 25
AMMONIA lbs. / Acre 40 16
PHOSPHORUS lbs. / Acre 1P:1K 174 730 1.81 : 1 P to K Ratio
POTASSIUM lbs. / Acre 167 403
CALCIUM lbs. / Acre 7 Ca : 1 Mg 3000 4405 19.49 : 1 Ca to Mg Ratio
MAGNESIUM lbs. / Acre 429 226
SODIUM PPM <35 18 0
ERGS mS / Centimeter 200 304
ORP 28 30
pH 6.5 7.4
COPPER PPM 0.8-2.5 3.8 0
IRON PPM 10-25 25.2 0
ZINC PPM 1-6 9.2 0
MANGANESE PPM 8-30 1.4 0
BORON PPM 0.8-1.2 1.0 0
SULFUR PPM 30 56
ORGANIC MATTER % 4% Not Tested
FORMAZAN PPM 600 Not Tested


















Unless otherwise noted all recommendations given on a per-acre basis.
The yield or final out come of any crop or grown material is controlled by many factors in addition to nutrition. While these recommendations are
based on agronomic research, they DO NOT GUARANTEE or imply any yield or out come. HUMUS 15
NITRATE NITROGEN 25
AMMONIA NITROGEN 0.8
PHOSPHOROUS 730
POTASSIUM 403
CALCIUM 4405
MAGNESIUM 226
SODIUM 9
ERGS 304
ORP 255
pH 7.44
MANGANESE 0.7
IRON 12.58
COPPER 1.92
ZINC 4.61
BORON 0.5
SULFUR 28
ORGANIC MATTER -1
FORMAZAN -1
Up
Rec's


5579
9 7.5 1.5



















Medium

This is the formula for the Eden's Secret product:

Nitrogen (N) 0.53
Phosphate (P205) 3.51
Potash (K20) 1.06
Calcium 6.08
Magnesium 0.47 PPM
Copper 0.002 22.4
Iron 0.222 2216.4
Zinc 0.004 37.3
Manganese 0.030 298.5

perhaps something in "Eden's Secret" could be the crazy P numbers