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Old 10-18-2017, 11:46 PM #321
Weird
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroombrew View Post
O plants feed on ions too. I think you mean ions from IO sources are a hack? I agree. It is cheaper and more productive. I will take that hack!

Another bold anti IO statement. Do you find it hard to stay impartial? It seems you "hate" IO.

Would you ever consider running hydro to test you theories?
As I will with soil?

I do like hearing from your corner. Which is obviously staunchly O.

My plants grow in a sterile solution. So exudates if any do not influence a bio population. And the nutrients are "digested" already. Cannabis does not need Bios to survive or produce terpenes and cannabinoids.

Exudates are only relevant O to farmers who need them to make organic material available to the plant.

I am curious to see if there is any measurable effect in this regard; with the upcoming test.

And lastly do you have an opinion on the soil mix for the test?
Anything missing? What mix would you use? Thanks!
ran ionic feed for well over a decade before I transitioned to living soil and I use a variation of LCs mix which I gather would come up deficient and imbalanced in a soil test
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:00 AM #322
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here is a tasty article for those who need it spelled out

https://link.springer.com/article/10...572-006-0065-6

Effects of three AM fungi on growth, distribution of glandular hairs, and essential oil production in Ocimum basilicum L. var. Genovese

Quote:
Abstract

The essential oils of basil are widely used in the cosmetic, pharmaceutical, food, and flavoring industries. Little is known about the potential of arbuscular mycorrhizal (AM) fungi to affect their production in this aromatic plant. The effects of colonization by three AM fungi, Glomus mosseae BEG 12, Gigaspora margarita BEG 34, and Gigaspora rosea BEG 9 on shoot and root biomass, abundance of glandular hairs, and essential oil yield of Ocimum basilicum L. var. Genovese were studied. Plant P content was analyzed in the various treatments and no differences were observed. The AM fungi induced various modifications in the considered parameters, but only Gi. rosea significantly affected all of them in comparison to control plants or the other fungal treatments. It significantly increased biomass, root branching and length, and the total amount of essential oil (especially α-terpineol). Increased oil yield was associated to a significantly larger number of peltate glandular trichomes (main sites of essential oil synthesis) in the basal and central leaf zones. Furthermore, Gi. margarita and Gi. rosea increased the percentage of eugenol and reduced linalool yield. Results showed that different fungi can induce different effects in the same plant and that the essential oil yield can be modulated according to the colonizing AM fungus.

now perhaps the reading audience can understand why a lean soil profile with robust microbiology is so important

it lets the plant choose which microbiology to cultivate which in turn effects secondary metabolite production ACROSS THE WHOLE OF THE PLANT that it evolved for survival

the very balance of that expression is regulated by the plant in a healthy food soil web

too much ionic feed or minerals and you mute/bias expression which effects everything including selection in that given environment
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Quote:
The shape it takes could be yours to choose

What you may win, what you may lose
Sativa is manna from heaven - BLueGrassToker

Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cured - Ureapwhatusow

nobody every told me i found out for myself, you've got to believe in foolish miracles - o. osborne

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For the wise men and the fools
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:49 AM #323
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:51 AM #324
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I intend to find out if terpenes are in fact "muted" in my IO.

Will be making clones for the test in a couple days. Like I said I hope O produces better quality flower.

We will soon find out.
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:36 AM #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird View Post
...
now perhaps the reading audience can understand why a lean soil profile with robust microbiology is so important

it lets the plant choose which microbiology to cultivate which in turn effects secondary metabolite production ACROSS THE WHOLE OF THE PLANT that it evolved for survival
...
That's a point I mentioned well before in the thread but this is not about O v.s. IO primary nutrients, it's about the whole rest.
Not saying it ain't a good point (it is a very good one, it's THE difference of O v.s. IO) but it doesn't contribute too much when it comes to plant nutrition per se.

The debate here is a debate where people talk of completely different things.
Now I got to run, sorry....
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:48 PM #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird View Post
here is a tasty article for those who need it spelled out

https://link.springer.com/article/10...572-006-0065-6

Effects of three AM fungi on growth, distribution of glandular hairs, and essential oil production in Ocimum basilicum L. var. Genovese




now perhaps the reading audience can understand why a lean soil profile with robust microbiology is so important

it lets the plant choose which microbiology to cultivate which in turn effects secondary metabolite production ACROSS THE WHOLE OF THE PLANT that it evolved for survival

the very balance of that expression is regulated by the plant in a healthy food soil web

too much ionic feed or minerals and you mute/bias expression which effects everything including selection in that given environment

so they feed the basil plants a modified Long Ashton hydroponic (ionic) solution then added different AM fungi and compared the effect on trichome ,essential oil production and plant growth parameters.

Quote:
In general, the authors underlined the importance of
improved mineral nutrition for essential oil yield.
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:54 PM #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
That's a point I mentioned well before in the thread but this is not about O v.s. IO primary nutrients, it's about the whole rest.
Not saying it ain't a good point (it is a very good one, it's THE difference of O v.s. IO) but it doesn't contribute too much when it comes to plant nutrition per se.

The debate here is a debate where people talk of completely different things.
Now I got to run, sorry....

A debate about ions derived from organic and inorganic sources is not a debate as basic NPK feeds regardless of regardless of source is a method modern/traditional non organic agricultural production

then there is transitional and then organic horticulturalmethodology

Washington state has a good model

I have grown extensively varying from hydro/sterile to true living soil organics and many transitional flavors in between and studied the perceived boundary of each as well

all of that said the truest differences are between substrate in which a plant uses exudates to feed versus ion fed plants

I have plenty of trials using all methodologies and the same cultivars.

I took sterile and npk feeds and every grow incorporated additional facets of organics to gauge differential. Each grow I added a different and additional element of organic methods to my sterile grow recycling my chem soil as I went

this includes a bevy of microbiology and components of soil like enzymes and aminos.
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Quote:
The shape it takes could be yours to choose

What you may win, what you may lose
Sativa is manna from heaven - BLueGrassToker

Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cured - Ureapwhatusow

nobody every told me i found out for myself, you've got to believe in foolish miracles - o. osborne

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to - b. Dylan
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:13 PM #328
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@Weird

So do you believe it is impossible for IO practices to produce flowers of higher quality than living soil?

I feel, like I have said before, that many Hydro growers are not at the top of the IO game.

I am. People sing the praises of my high terps. But that dosen't mean a thing without testing.

So test I will.

Have you conducted any terp tests? Would be nice to see your concentrations. As I will also be using soil. Can't use your results as a base line but it is a starting point that would give me a goal with O.

Despite what you say (which I do listen to) I promise my IO is hard to beat. That's why I asked for mix design assistance.

I have found micro nutrient ratios to affect terpenes more than bios. I used bio's extensively for a decade in Hawaii GH.

In my experience with O high micros and lower macros produce more terpenes.
This of course may be due to the micros enhancing bio population vs. feeding the plant directly. I can't know the anwser.

That is what lead me to my current IO formula. Under 900TDS most of the time. With 200ppm Mg, S and Ca. Plants go nuts. I swing pH from 5.2 to 6.1. And I stay out of the Mg "valley" at 5.6.
So my plants can grab traces easily though out the week.

I have a very unconventional feeding program. Plants get traces/secondaries everyday. Dribbles of them vs. dumping at startup is much better. I can feed 1L of calmag per week in 50 Gallons.

That is 4 times the recommended amount! If I put that at startup I would burn them!!
So traces one day Calmag the next and so on. With Macros around 650TDS.

Slightly underfed Cannabis is much better than slightly overfed...
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Old 10-19-2017, 07:18 PM #329
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quality can be argued from a point of subjectivity so there has to be a base line for quality

if that baseline is maximum over all yield that differs greatly from highest expression of specific terpenes or cannabinoids and that differs from preferred terpene and canabinoid ratios and that differs from a plants natural expression in an uncontrolled natural local environment as well as the plants natural expression in an uncontrolled natural environment it evolved to thrive in

and of course there is a bit of over lap or non consequence, i.e. not all cultivars are as dynamic in variation of expression relative to environmental cues and the perception of improvement in this case remains relative

coming in from the underfeed has many seeming benefits since it is one of the constants I have practiced throughout
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Quote:
The shape it takes could be yours to choose

What you may win, what you may lose
Sativa is manna from heaven - BLueGrassToker

Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cured - Ureapwhatusow

nobody every told me i found out for myself, you've got to believe in foolish miracles - o. osborne

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to - b. Dylan
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Old 10-19-2017, 07:43 PM #330
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A few points--

1. The concept of "quality" will always be a "subjective" opinion...as in "I like" & "I don't like".

2. The concept of "quantity" will always be an "objective" opinion....as in "do the manicured buds average 1/4 lb per plant or not?"

3. ROLS/Living Soil etc is just one branch of O and, imo, many growers in this group are extremely biased and not very tolerable when discussing other O styles of growing. The basic difference is: Some of us grow "plants" in containers and some of us grow "soil", cover crops and "plants" in the same container. Both groups use basically the same O inputs--just with different objectives.
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