Mount Zion 2017

Any thought to run their Punto Rojo or Mangobiche?

Limeygreen said:

Any thought to run their Punto Rojo or Mangobiche?

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I grew some Punto Rojo Last year, interesting citrus incense smells VERY MUCH like Skunkmans (Mexican*Ohaze)*(Ohaze*Skunk #1) except the skunkmans cross is better in all categories....punto Rojo has extremely fluffy buds ONLY good for breeding material. I will likely try to preserve the line in the future, however Punto Rojo was one of the 3 "Panama" varieities used to create Panama and so the genetics are preserved there and panama is more exceptional in every category. More resin, much bigger and much harder, more potent, more stinky, early flowering, better on nutrients so for, higher yielding.

I have heard interesting things about Mangobiche and will also likely grow in the future and potentially preserve.

Im already losing lots of money growing pure and ultra sativas in my commercial space so at the moment i need to be real picky which ones i grow.

why don't you rise the price of the final product. demand will make the price if they want pure landrace they will pay (may be ...) people need education .. and i'm sure some of them wiil be happy to supportthis kind of cultivation.

Hi MZC,
looks like another impressive season for you, thanks for all detailed reporting and observations, it's always very helpful and nice to read your contributions
Have you any experience with nepalese or himalayan plants in your region? I think they should like it up there, above the thicker layer of the atmosphere. Maybe check for some real seed company varieties, nearest to pure landraces you can find on the market. I think they would be extraordinary if properly selected and crossed to the best of the other breeders material, especially for higher grounds and if good outdoor adaptation is needed.
Just a thought..


Cheers

Manivelle said:

why don't you rise the price of the final product. demand will make the price if they want pure landrace they will pay (may be ...) people need education .. and i'm sure some of them wiil be happy to supportthis kind of cultivation.

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That is my plan for the future for sure. My plan is to have different price options on my mothers to better reflect the product and what it takes to bring it to market, but right now there are many constraints from the market (#1 not welcome to fluffy airy foxtails ...) and presently I prefer to sell bulk wholsale....that overtime could be overcome with proper marketing and the right product but im just not quite there yet. Im still very much in the research and development stage of my business California already overproduces cannabis so competition is tough. Taxes and fees are crazy high and prices keep dropping.

My future business partners wife is specialized in marketing, social media and branding so we will be developing the brand to help stay competitive. When the California organic program for cannabis comes out we will get that, and then advertise ourselves as growing unique and heirloom varieties from around the world. We are growing stuff that the Cali farmers have mostly not given a try so basically everything we will be growing will be something unique.

Koondense said:

Hi MZC,
looks like another impressive season for you, thanks for all detailed reporting and observations, it's always very helpful and nice to read your contributions
Have you any experience with nepalese or himalayan plants in your region? I think they should like it up there, above the thicker layer of the atmosphere. Maybe check for some real seed company varieties, nearest to pure landraces you can find on the market. I think they would be extraordinary if properly selected and crossed to the best of the other breeders material, especially for higher grounds and if good outdoor adaptation is needed.
Just a thought..


Cheers

Click to expand...

I do not have experience with Nepalese or himilayan strains but I am growing some crosses next year form Cannabiogen. THe one that comes to mind to is the Nepal Jam.......I do agree and in the future I have plans to grow out many more landrace varieites such as what is sold through real seed company to do big selections, which would then be perfect to cross to bring something new to market.

I REALLY PRAY that California will eventually craft some rules that are good for breeders. If I could get a breeding license in addition to my cultivation licences in the future I will and I will do fairly large scale selections. I would love to have a 1/2 acre farming operation and a 1/2 acre breeding operation that would be amazing.

MountZionCollec said:

......I REALLY PRAY that California will eventually craft some rules that are good for breeders. If I could get a breeding license in addition to my cultivation licences in the future I will and I will do fairly large scale selections. I would love to have a 1/2 acre farming operation and a 1/2 acre breeding operation that would be amazing.

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so what do you think of the emergency regs that just dropped?

the talk at the Golden Tarp panels this w-end made it sound like Humbolt is the only town with the proper regs to allow the small farmers to survive but even then they are charging $1 to $3 per square foot of canopy local cultivation taxes on top of the huge state permit fees and $150 per pound grower taxes on flower and $44 per pound on trim and leaf.

EMERGENCY REGULATIONS FOR CANNABIS CULTIVATION
https://www.bcc.ca.gov/law_regs/cdfa_prop_text_emerg_reg.pdf

can you afford those state fees and the permitting and paperwork cost of going legal?

is your county currently charging you a per foot fee based on canopy size?

the big fuss really seems to be that they removed the one acre cap on grow sizes that was supposed to stay for 5 years after intense lobbying by "interested stakeholders".

the state is supposed to drop the mark up percentage for licensed distributors tomorrow which will determine the actual retail excise taxes, the excise retail tax rate is set at 15%.

here's an example from the state website on canna taxes.
https://cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/cannabis.htm#Distributors

Example – You are a distributor and you sell one pound of cannabis flowers for $1,200 (which reflects the fair market price in the open market) to a retailer and charge a $300 transportation fee. The wholesale cost paid by the retailer to you is $1,500 ($1,200 + $300).

To determine the average market price, take the wholesale cost and add the mark-up. This example assumes a 60 percent mark-up on cannabis flowers.
Wholesale cost of cannabis flowers
$1,500
Mark-up ($1,500 x 60%)
$900
Average market price
$2,400

The cannabis excise tax due from the retailer to the distributor on this transaction is $360 (15% x $2,400). See Excise Tax Computation topic below for more information.

$300 transportation fee per pound??? fucking nuts huh?

The level of Taxes and regulations that are being laid on the industry locally and state wide are going to raise prices and will increase the problem of the black market. Eventually the laws will need to actually function in reality so I think the laws will continue to change many times over the next five years...this isnt the last "emergency Regs" lol. I am starting to be of the opinion that Cannabis will need a nationwide change to actually become a functioning market.


In Calaveras we are taxed $2 a square foot. The regulations here are not too bad, they allow up to 22K square feet. The rules are about to change though so well see.

Whether we will be able to compete will depend entirely on the price. With ~$250 in taxes and fees I need another $250 per pound just to begin to pull a profit and another $100 per pound pay all the bills including my own pay.

The distributor stuff is really crazy, they are completely useless...in a few years most of them will go out of business when laws change that make them obsolete.

California is about to enter a roller coaster in terms of cannabis. Its going to be beyond what they can regulate and control for many years to come. If they do go through will allowing unlimited massive farms, while we are not able to ship nationally or internationally we are going to have a crisis on are hands in terms of the amount of overproduction taking place in California. We already overproduce 5-10 times more then we consume...what happens production doubles? Going to get wild but prices will still be high enough for the black market to thrive.

Chunkypigs said:

so what do you think of the emergency regs that just dropped?

the talk at the Golden Tarp panels this w-end made it sound like Humbolt is the only town with the proper regs to allow the small farmers to survive but even then they are charging $1 to $3 per square foot of canopy local cultivation taxes on top of the huge state permit fees and $150 per pound grower taxes on flower and $44 per pound on trim and leaf.

EMERGENCY REGULATIONS FOR CANNABIS CULTIVATION
https://www.bcc.ca.gov/law_regs/cdfa_prop_text_emerg_reg.pdf

can you afford those state fees and the permitting and paperwork cost of going legal?

is your county currently charging you a per foot fee based on canopy size?

the big fuss really seems to be that they removed the one acre cap on grow sizes that was supposed to stay for 5 years after intense lobbying by "interested stakeholders".

the state is supposed to drop the mark up percentage for licensed distributors tomorrow which will determine the actual retail excise taxes, the excise retail tax rate is set at 15%.

here's an example from the state website on canna taxes.
https://cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/cannabis.htm#Distributors

Example – You are a distributor and you sell one pound of cannabis flowers for $1,200 (which reflects the fair market price in the open market) to a retailer and charge a $300 transportation fee. The wholesale cost paid by the retailer to you is $1,500 ($1,200 + $300).

To determine the average market price, take the wholesale cost and add the mark-up. This example assumes a 60 percent mark-up on cannabis flowers.
Wholesale cost of cannabis flowers
$1,500
Mark-up ($1,500 x 60%)
$900
Average market price
$2,400

The cannabis excise tax due from the retailer to the distributor on this transaction is $360 (15% x $2,400). See Excise Tax Computation topic below for more information.

$300 transportation fee per pound??? fucking nuts huh?

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The county is voting on our future next Tuesday.

If it goes as I plan, I will be putting in an offer on a PERFECT property, $1 million. We checked many properties we thought would work but always an issue. This one is 2500-3000' altitude. 160 acres...2 ponds, 2 springs that feed them, a large creek at one end that I have water rights on in winter and I'm supplied a smaller percentage of water rights by the county during the summer. Ponds never go dry.

Shockingly flat Agriculture land in the mountains. I could grow 20 acres of Ag products here if I wanted too with plenty left to graze livestock.

Current owners dad who bought it was an agriculture teacher, and before that it was homesteaded. Lots of unique and rare trees and plant life, it's a wierd climate it has the plants from my 4000'+ altitude and the ones from 2000' and below. Sadly it has poison oak with Huge patches of oak trees, I'm thinking I'll need 1 jersey cow and 2 pigs .

We need $400k from investor, the land seller to carry $300k of the loan for 3 years at 9% interest and for me and my partner to both take out 9% $225k cannabis mortgage loans to get the business up and running and to pay for everything needed until we begin sales in November. We will expand to 22k square feet. We have done a very detailed 9 year financial plan, still being refined but coming together nicely.

It has amazing setbacks from the neighboring homes and good land that is setback away from the springs and ponds with the waterboard rules.

Well is only 100' deep but apparently that's plenty with 25gpm I believe was the number

that property sounds like a utopia. a couple goats will eat up that poison oak. its none of my business but if i may ask...what price per unit is worked into that financial plan? Wholesale or direct to consumer/patient? prices in my circles are in the gutter, very very solid packs for 400-500 a pop. we intended on expanding to 22k sqft. from the get go, but the BOS started flip flopping on legality and we didnt see it wise to order 50k worth of dirt and get put out of business the next week. 400/500 is plenty to get on an agricultural crop if youre going 22k big, but once you factor in all the taxes and water board etc... the margins get slim. best wishes on your endevour

The black market in the area of Portland Oregon witch i know very well has gotten way out of hand. With the close of the few MJClubs that where the place to go if you know what i mean its gone crazy.

JVonChron said:

that property sounds like a utopia. a couple goats will eat up that poison oak. its none of my business but if i may ask...what price per unit is worked into that financial plan? Wholesale or direct to consumer/patient? prices in my circles are in the gutter, very very solid packs for 400-500 a pop. we intended on expanding to 22k sqft. from the get go, but the BOS started flip flopping on legality and we didnt see it wise to order 50k worth of dirt and get put out of business the next week. 400/500 is plenty to get on an agricultural crop if youre going 22k big, but once you factor in all the taxes and water board etc... the margins get slim. best wishes on your endevour

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I sold my entire harvest wholesale for $900 to a dispensary.

The California dispensary market is very deep and larger then any other state market in America. Then when you add in the large number of middlemen shipping east or exporting....and THEN when you add in the amount of legal demand by concentrate pens...THen add in new mold tests knocking some supply out of the flower market and then Pesticide tests knocking people out of selling to the concentrate Or the legal flower market then a picture begins to come together where prices will not be the doom and gloom some are predicting.... I feel prices will take a big drop at first and will steadily drop each year after that but they will not collapse like what has happened in some of the small markets like Washington State. Kevin Jodrey owner of wonderland nurseries believes prices will rise in the short term and then drop significantly in about 5 years once counties begin allowing there current permitted grows to expand production and begin allowing new commercial grows into the market. Californias Economy is the size of a nation.

NEW government costs of production come out to about $250 in year 1 not taking into account state and federal income taxes. So for someone to sell for the SAME price next year to a dispensary would in effect be a price drop of at least $250. I am planning on a $300 price drop in year 1 which is a year 1 price of $850...which is really a price of $600 or less in todays market with the new costs-fees-taxes to compete.

GOing to 22k square feet is only increasing my size of production by 2.5 times, and im going to have much better soil and infrastructure and lower altitude climate. Also the past 4 years I have been very Concentrated developing ways of growing in a cookie cutter treat everything the same so I could easily expand the process...Growing in the ground is so key on keeping the costs DOWN...then to prune and support as little as possible, touch the plants as little as possible, foliar spray as little as possible. So for me expanding to 22k square feet is NOT going to hurt my quality as I will treat the product in the exact same way, I will just have more trimmers and more $$ to pay for harvesting help and guarding property during harvest time since its not at my home, but its just down the street.... As time goes on my quality will increase by improving my infrastructure and finding better mothers to grow commercially and treating the product in the most delicate way allowed while still moving it through the process quick enough to be profitable.

damn i'd give my left nut to sell the box im sitting on for 900 a pop.

any word on the meeting that was supposed to be today?

Not finalized until Thursday but I'd recommend u watch the last hour of the BOS meeting it shows the meat of the day. Looking like 50 parcels on 50 acres or more with a max canopy of 22,000 square feet per parcel that can be divided up amongst smaller square foot grows to equal a total of 22k and no more and they would all need to be located in the same area not in different locations of the property.

500' setbacks from residential lands. 500' setbacks from all neighboring structures, and 200' setback if neighboring a forest or Ag lands.

thanks for the info. wonder how they are going to fairly give out 50 permits. i smell lawsuits.

also wonder if the BOS got bribed or they are just putting on a show and gonna ban anyways. Seems like a big money move to get the BOS to "Ok" only 50 spots on 50 acre parcels. I'd venture to guess alot of folks out here cant even afford a 50 acre parcel. the setup is kinda like in oregon, one big parcel sub divided into a bunch of grows. talk about a nightmare, one grow has mites/mold all of them are. I stand by my prediction they will just ban, will be a shit storm hashing out who gets permits considering people from 2016 still haven't gotten an inspection.

It's looking like they'll let everyone move if they can, not clear if needing over 50 acres or 100.

I with 3 other owners have decided to form a new corporation and change our name. I am working on language of my offer on 1+ million property.

There's a chance we will have our grow and then the county will allow another entity there own 22k square foot grow. We considered leasing but not worth it likely, I know some older license holders who would love to contract out with us have us do EVERYTHING with there grow, they will still be the owner entity of the license on the second grow and we would not own ANYTHING in there company but we would get large majority of profit thru the contract since it would be on our land and they won't have to do much of any work at all. We will also brand and sell through the brand were creating that will be setup for multiple farms to sell under the same label, following certain farming techniques and growing our strains.

So there's a small chance I could be managing 1 acre with my company owning a 1/2 acre grow and being contracted out to manage another. The costs increase by 50% and my profits go up with 300% with having two grows share the costs because many costs are not doubled with a second grow allowing for savings in costs.

We're still working on the financial and business plans but coming along nicely.

I have found a local license holder who is interested to contract with us to do his whole grow on our land. So we would have our 22k and another that we would be paid a substantial portion of the profit to do everything for grow and sales.

He has a smaller grow now on his land outside West Point and doesn't have a chance to move his grow. He doesn't grow he has someone else do the work I believe. Very cool guy, intelligent but he is trying to get another business going and doesn't have the time but would love to keep his license active and make a yearly income plus have the option to sell the permit to us or someone else longterm.

It would be his license and entity that we manage on our land and then we will share many expenses making both grows more efficient and profitable.

Planning on 750 plants per 1/2 acre, would have 1500 plants total. 1/3 at 4'8" spacing for smaller indica plants, 1/3 at 5'4" for hybrids and 6' spacing for my most vigourous strains.