caredrivensf
Member
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$EDITED$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$EDITED$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$EDITED$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$EDITED$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
THIS OP HAS CONTRIBUTIONS FROM MANY MEMBERS OF ICMAG
Hello. I am new here but not new to cannabis or growing. In fact I have a sizable operation. I want to spread my knowledge on Spider Mite and Broad Mite control and IPM. Once you experience a real problem with either of these pests it can really ruin your life lol. There is so much info. out there that I read and hear that turns out to be false. My hope is to give you all the knowledge I have gained and also create an open dialogue about these two devastating pests.
What I know about these pests that PPL overlook. These lil fuckers crawl around so tanglefoot is prob a good idea. Broad mites take females with them to new foliage and fuck their brains out which is how they spread rapidly. Broad mites lay way more eggs than spider mites so early control is essential. They don't like water!!! Everything else Im sure there are a million threads with accurate info.
A sound IPM has MANY practices, rather than just spraying which I am guilty of. These othere things are:
But when these dont work you must spray. So I want to share what I know about spraying and have others contribute so we spray safely, effectively, and do not develop RESISTANT PESTS!!!
What I know about pesticides in general. First all pesticides need to reside in water at a proper PH level which is 5.5-6.5. Alkalinity will decrease the residual longevity. There are many types of pesticides that claim to work on mites. Not all pesticides however control Broad mites. There is no organic control for broad mites other than creating a hostile environment and predatory mites. Let me put that out there right now!! Do your research and let me know what you find anything different. There are many organic controls for spider mites. Most common are Horticultural oils (including Neem Oil), and Pyrethium. Now forget about Neem Oil as a end all because that is not even what it is. It is actually considered an Adjuvant. An adjuvant is an additive you combine with an effective pesticide to increase effectiveness. Adjuvents can be many things like spreaders, emulsifiers, wetting agents etc. We can talk about each one as necessary. Just remember Neem Oil is not a pesticide. Think of it more as a sticker that helps stick the pesticide to the leaf tissue. Cocowet is a spreader. It decreases the surface tension of the leaf so it spreads out on the leaf and doesn't bead off. It is also an emulsifier which is required for combining oil and water!! Ive learned through experience that cocowet does not work as well as an emulsifier as it does a wetting agent. Pure biodegradable Dawn dish soap has been the best emulsifier for me.
Thats a lot just for Neem Oil huh, but I bet it strikes a lot of chords in your brain about things. With that being said if you want to stick with an organic IPM you need to rely on Horticultural Oils combined with an effective Organic EPA registered pesticide like Azamax and Predatory Mites. Certain Pyrethums and Sulfur treatments are acceptable but not really effective to me. Feel free to add any additional "Organic" controls. I know there are many special concoctions you can make with peppermint oils etc. but lets get real these mites nowadays are mutants.
Now lets talk about the stuff that people don't want to talk about. The bad ones like Avid, Pylon, Forbid, Tetrasan, Floramite etc. All by the way are NON SYSTEMIC. They either have a translaminant action or plain residual. All of these by the way are all acceptable for indoor tomato gardens and citrus. Obviously that is because you can wash these varieties or peel them right? So if you do not spray at all in flower is it ok? That is the question we shall explore. Many folks logic is that when you just spray the leaves by the time you harvest all the chemical will be gone, plus when you trim the cannabis, you are essentially "peeling" or washing away the residual if any. Im just bringing it up as an entry point for discussion because I truly want to lean on Organic methods but sometimes Organic will not work. So for the sake of this thread we are going to talk like these pesticides are ok for cannabis also. Later in the topic we can discuss the knowledge we have on the reality of using these pesticides.
Organic and all Natural Sprays *check for 100% Organic
*Neem Sprays
*Pyrethum
*Sulfer products
***BEWARE OF PRODUCTS LIKE "NUKE EM" and "BIG TIME EXTERMINATOR" *** They are organic and all natural but have been known to mees up many folks plants. Plus the directions are confusing
xxxstr8edgexxx ORGANIC FORMULA
i mix in one tank.
medium dose of pyganic
medium dose azadactin (neem extract)
medium dose of spinosad
a little mint dr. bronners.
spray every plant all over every 3rd day 4 times.
this is done on the cusp of harvest so that the 4th treatment happens in the flowering room on day of flip
Predatory Mites!!! I think the coolest thing are these time release bags check the link.
http://www.koppert.com/news-biologi...rst-slow-release-bag-amblyseius-californicus/
Also Syngenta (makers of Avid) has a Bioline of predatory mites. Check it out!!
http://www3.syngenta.com/global/bio...st.aspx?q1=Broad/Cyclamen+mite&q5=Productline
I fell like the best type of predatory mite is the Amblyseius swirskii or swirskii's The eat both spider and broad mites, plus thirps!!!
Let me break the Chemical Pesticides up in to two categories Broad Mites and Spider Mites and detail what I have learned about each. All these pesticides are compatible with each other in the same tank, but I have not combined all in one before.
Broad Mites (whatever works on broad mites works on spider mites)
Avid EC-
http://www.syngentaprofessionalproducts.com/pdf/labels/SCP896AL6A0904.pdf
Repeat as necessary no wait. be careful about reisitance so rotate. Contact Killer Residual 7 days. Does not affect eggs The EC in Avid means Emulsifiable Concentrate. You need an Emulsifier. Which makes sense because according to UC Davis IPM program for Citrus, the first thing you should do to your crops is spray with Avid and a narrow based oil(horticultural oil, neem) which requires an emulsifier to mix the oil and water.
Forbid-
http://www.guysinpurple.com/documents/label_forbid.pdf
All stages but works on juveniles best. Used in early threshold levels. Best used before damaging popopulation begins. Knockdown and residual. Not for use in greenhouses? Do not use more than 3 times a cycle and nvr twice in a row!! Residual 21 days. Allow plenty of time to dry before exposing to light. Special mixing instructions when combing Avid which is a killer combo. Forbid works on early stages and Avid kills adults Boom!! So you need to fill the tank haldf way with water, add Forbid, agitate and add more water, add Avid, top off and add Emulsifier (soap).
Pylon-
http://www.ohp.com/Labels_MSDS/PDF/pylon_20_label.pdf
Knockdown and stomach action. Mites cannot create energy to live. Nonovicidal. Should be used with ovicidal miticide if many eggs present (forbid). Apply 5-days after first application very important to do this since the way the chemical spreads on the tissue!!!. Nonsystemic does not translocate. Do not use any adjuvant will cause foliar damage. WARNING I have personally seen foliar damage with this product!!! I personally am reluctant to mix with other pesticides. Residual 21 days
Spider Mites
Floramite-
http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld5ge007.pdf
Contact killer and residual. wont kill predatory mites. needs upper and lower leaf coverage since non systemic. Fill tank half way add then add rest of water to disperse product. Needs to be a Ph 5.5-6.5. 28 days residual. Do not use adujavent with tomotoes? Not effective against broad mites!!!
Tetrasan-
http://www.valent.com/Data/Labels/2011-TET-0001 TetraSan 5 WDG - form 1453-E.pdf
http://www.valent.com/Data/Labels/0200rev2.pdf
Egg and nymphs, Translaminar. No more than 2 times in 6 months for Moms. Use at first sight since it only works on eggs and nymphs. Adults wont lay fertile eggs For rapid control mix with Adult contact control product (Avid). Do not use sufficant if growing indoor tomatoes it says? dnt use within one day of harvest. for tomatoes.
With all that being said I have developed a Cannabis IPM program for Broad Mites and Spider Mites. Keep in mind this is assuming that when used correctly, the "trimming" action after harvest is essentially like washing or peeling fruit. None of these products are Systemic. However I have no knowledge of the half life of any of the chemicals but have other gardeners submit lab results providing acceptable residual levels and all passed.
This IPM takes in to account all the knowledge I learned regarding reproduction times, mixing pesticides, residual times, which stage of development the products target, resistance management and any other special instructions. Feel free to make any additions or where you see holes.
The first part is the INFESTED Veg Room IPM the second is the NON INFESTED Veg and Flowering rooms, and I am currently developing a full prevention method for Mothers.
INFESTED VEG (broken into 28 days)
Day 1- Forbid x Avid dip clones transplant
Day2- Clean
Day 3-
Day 4- Pylon (treatment 1)
Day 5- Clean
Day 6- !!!!Avid Wears Off!!!
Day 7- Tetrasan x Avid
Day 8- Clean
Day 9- Pylon (treatment 2)
Day 10- Clean
Day 11- Hostile Environment (Heat 120 degree F)
Day 12- !!!Avid Wears Off!!
Day 13- Check Effectiveness of Treatments!!
Day 14- Introduce Predatory Mites
Day 15- Clean
Day 16- Hostile Environment (Humidity)
Day 17-
Day 18- ((possible chemical treatment depending on inspection))
Day 19- Azamax x Neem
Day 20- Clean
Day 21- !!!Forbid Wears Off!!!
Day 22-
Day 23-
Day 24- Pyrethum Bomb
Day 25- !!!Pylon Wears Off!!!
Day 26- Clean
Day 27-
Day 28- !!!Tetrasan Wears Off!!!
Clean VEG and Flower
Predatory Mite Time Release Bags (4-6 weeks)
Inspection
Cleaning
Oils and Azamax
I truly feel this is the best plan of attack for these lil bastards if you have a problem. If you don not have a problem I suggest Organic measures. IF these products can be used in only Veg, is the end product still safe? No residuals come up from SC labs testing processes. What do you think? Feel free to add any other REAL FACTS about these products half life, residual, personal experience etc.
Here are some additional resources I have come across
Spray School
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/training/
Residual Chart and Dosage Cheat Sheet
http://rosemania.com/SprayReferenceOct2013_final.pdf
THIS OP HAS CONTRIBUTIONS FROM MANY MEMBERS OF ICMAG
Hello. I am new here but not new to cannabis or growing. In fact I have a sizable operation. I want to spread my knowledge on Spider Mite and Broad Mite control and IPM. Once you experience a real problem with either of these pests it can really ruin your life lol. There is so much info. out there that I read and hear that turns out to be false. My hope is to give you all the knowledge I have gained and also create an open dialogue about these two devastating pests.
What I know about these pests that PPL overlook. These lil fuckers crawl around so tanglefoot is prob a good idea. Broad mites take females with them to new foliage and fuck their brains out which is how they spread rapidly. Broad mites lay way more eggs than spider mites so early control is essential. They don't like water!!! Everything else Im sure there are a million threads with accurate info.
A sound IPM has MANY practices, rather than just spraying which I am guilty of. These othere things are:
- Cultural control (using the right pruning, fertilizing or watering regime, or selecting pest-resistant varieties or species)
- Physical control (for example, using mulches to keep weeds from growing, or solarization for soilborne pathogens or weed seeds)
- Mechanical control (hoeing weeds, spraying leaves forcefully with water to remove insects, or using traps or creating barriers to exclude pests)
- Biological control (using beneficial organisms such as insects that eat or parasitize other insects)
- Replant (in extreme cases, where a plant requires regular pesticide treatment, consider replanting with a more pest-resistant species or variety)
But when these dont work you must spray. So I want to share what I know about spraying and have others contribute so we spray safely, effectively, and do not develop RESISTANT PESTS!!!
What I know about pesticides in general. First all pesticides need to reside in water at a proper PH level which is 5.5-6.5. Alkalinity will decrease the residual longevity. There are many types of pesticides that claim to work on mites. Not all pesticides however control Broad mites. There is no organic control for broad mites other than creating a hostile environment and predatory mites. Let me put that out there right now!! Do your research and let me know what you find anything different. There are many organic controls for spider mites. Most common are Horticultural oils (including Neem Oil), and Pyrethium. Now forget about Neem Oil as a end all because that is not even what it is. It is actually considered an Adjuvant. An adjuvant is an additive you combine with an effective pesticide to increase effectiveness. Adjuvents can be many things like spreaders, emulsifiers, wetting agents etc. We can talk about each one as necessary. Just remember Neem Oil is not a pesticide. Think of it more as a sticker that helps stick the pesticide to the leaf tissue. Cocowet is a spreader. It decreases the surface tension of the leaf so it spreads out on the leaf and doesn't bead off. It is also an emulsifier which is required for combining oil and water!! Ive learned through experience that cocowet does not work as well as an emulsifier as it does a wetting agent. Pure biodegradable Dawn dish soap has been the best emulsifier for me.
Thats a lot just for Neem Oil huh, but I bet it strikes a lot of chords in your brain about things. With that being said if you want to stick with an organic IPM you need to rely on Horticultural Oils combined with an effective Organic EPA registered pesticide like Azamax and Predatory Mites. Certain Pyrethums and Sulfur treatments are acceptable but not really effective to me. Feel free to add any additional "Organic" controls. I know there are many special concoctions you can make with peppermint oils etc. but lets get real these mites nowadays are mutants.
Now lets talk about the stuff that people don't want to talk about. The bad ones like Avid, Pylon, Forbid, Tetrasan, Floramite etc. All by the way are NON SYSTEMIC. They either have a translaminant action or plain residual. All of these by the way are all acceptable for indoor tomato gardens and citrus. Obviously that is because you can wash these varieties or peel them right? So if you do not spray at all in flower is it ok? That is the question we shall explore. Many folks logic is that when you just spray the leaves by the time you harvest all the chemical will be gone, plus when you trim the cannabis, you are essentially "peeling" or washing away the residual if any. Im just bringing it up as an entry point for discussion because I truly want to lean on Organic methods but sometimes Organic will not work. So for the sake of this thread we are going to talk like these pesticides are ok for cannabis also. Later in the topic we can discuss the knowledge we have on the reality of using these pesticides.
Organic and all Natural Sprays *check for 100% Organic
*Neem Sprays
*Pyrethum
*Sulfer products
***BEWARE OF PRODUCTS LIKE "NUKE EM" and "BIG TIME EXTERMINATOR" *** They are organic and all natural but have been known to mees up many folks plants. Plus the directions are confusing
xxxstr8edgexxx ORGANIC FORMULA
i mix in one tank.
medium dose of pyganic
medium dose azadactin (neem extract)
medium dose of spinosad
a little mint dr. bronners.
spray every plant all over every 3rd day 4 times.
this is done on the cusp of harvest so that the 4th treatment happens in the flowering room on day of flip
Predatory Mites!!! I think the coolest thing are these time release bags check the link.
http://www.koppert.com/news-biologi...rst-slow-release-bag-amblyseius-californicus/
Also Syngenta (makers of Avid) has a Bioline of predatory mites. Check it out!!
http://www3.syngenta.com/global/bio...st.aspx?q1=Broad/Cyclamen+mite&q5=Productline
I fell like the best type of predatory mite is the Amblyseius swirskii or swirskii's The eat both spider and broad mites, plus thirps!!!
Let me break the Chemical Pesticides up in to two categories Broad Mites and Spider Mites and detail what I have learned about each. All these pesticides are compatible with each other in the same tank, but I have not combined all in one before.
Broad Mites (whatever works on broad mites works on spider mites)
Avid EC-
http://www.syngentaprofessionalproducts.com/pdf/labels/SCP896AL6A0904.pdf
Repeat as necessary no wait. be careful about reisitance so rotate. Contact Killer Residual 7 days. Does not affect eggs The EC in Avid means Emulsifiable Concentrate. You need an Emulsifier. Which makes sense because according to UC Davis IPM program for Citrus, the first thing you should do to your crops is spray with Avid and a narrow based oil(horticultural oil, neem) which requires an emulsifier to mix the oil and water.
Forbid-
http://www.guysinpurple.com/documents/label_forbid.pdf
All stages but works on juveniles best. Used in early threshold levels. Best used before damaging popopulation begins. Knockdown and residual. Not for use in greenhouses? Do not use more than 3 times a cycle and nvr twice in a row!! Residual 21 days. Allow plenty of time to dry before exposing to light. Special mixing instructions when combing Avid which is a killer combo. Forbid works on early stages and Avid kills adults Boom!! So you need to fill the tank haldf way with water, add Forbid, agitate and add more water, add Avid, top off and add Emulsifier (soap).
Pylon-
http://www.ohp.com/Labels_MSDS/PDF/pylon_20_label.pdf
Knockdown and stomach action. Mites cannot create energy to live. Nonovicidal. Should be used with ovicidal miticide if many eggs present (forbid). Apply 5-days after first application very important to do this since the way the chemical spreads on the tissue!!!. Nonsystemic does not translocate. Do not use any adjuvant will cause foliar damage. WARNING I have personally seen foliar damage with this product!!! I personally am reluctant to mix with other pesticides. Residual 21 days
Spider Mites
Floramite-
http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld5ge007.pdf
Contact killer and residual. wont kill predatory mites. needs upper and lower leaf coverage since non systemic. Fill tank half way add then add rest of water to disperse product. Needs to be a Ph 5.5-6.5. 28 days residual. Do not use adujavent with tomotoes? Not effective against broad mites!!!
Tetrasan-
http://www.valent.com/Data/Labels/2011-TET-0001 TetraSan 5 WDG - form 1453-E.pdf
http://www.valent.com/Data/Labels/0200rev2.pdf
Egg and nymphs, Translaminar. No more than 2 times in 6 months for Moms. Use at first sight since it only works on eggs and nymphs. Adults wont lay fertile eggs For rapid control mix with Adult contact control product (Avid). Do not use sufficant if growing indoor tomatoes it says? dnt use within one day of harvest. for tomatoes.
With all that being said I have developed a Cannabis IPM program for Broad Mites and Spider Mites. Keep in mind this is assuming that when used correctly, the "trimming" action after harvest is essentially like washing or peeling fruit. None of these products are Systemic. However I have no knowledge of the half life of any of the chemicals but have other gardeners submit lab results providing acceptable residual levels and all passed.
This IPM takes in to account all the knowledge I learned regarding reproduction times, mixing pesticides, residual times, which stage of development the products target, resistance management and any other special instructions. Feel free to make any additions or where you see holes.
The first part is the INFESTED Veg Room IPM the second is the NON INFESTED Veg and Flowering rooms, and I am currently developing a full prevention method for Mothers.
INFESTED VEG (broken into 28 days)
Day 1- Forbid x Avid dip clones transplant
Day2- Clean
Day 3-
Day 4- Pylon (treatment 1)
Day 5- Clean
Day 6- !!!!Avid Wears Off!!!
Day 7- Tetrasan x Avid
Day 8- Clean
Day 9- Pylon (treatment 2)
Day 10- Clean
Day 11- Hostile Environment (Heat 120 degree F)
Day 12- !!!Avid Wears Off!!
Day 13- Check Effectiveness of Treatments!!
Day 14- Introduce Predatory Mites
Day 15- Clean
Day 16- Hostile Environment (Humidity)
Day 17-
Day 18- ((possible chemical treatment depending on inspection))
Day 19- Azamax x Neem
Day 20- Clean
Day 21- !!!Forbid Wears Off!!!
Day 22-
Day 23-
Day 24- Pyrethum Bomb
Day 25- !!!Pylon Wears Off!!!
Day 26- Clean
Day 27-
Day 28- !!!Tetrasan Wears Off!!!
Clean VEG and Flower
Predatory Mite Time Release Bags (4-6 weeks)
Inspection
Cleaning
Oils and Azamax
I truly feel this is the best plan of attack for these lil bastards if you have a problem. If you don not have a problem I suggest Organic measures. IF these products can be used in only Veg, is the end product still safe? No residuals come up from SC labs testing processes. What do you think? Feel free to add any other REAL FACTS about these products half life, residual, personal experience etc.
Here are some additional resources I have come across
Spray School
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/training/
Residual Chart and Dosage Cheat Sheet
http://rosemania.com/SprayReferenceOct2013_final.pdf
Last edited:
