Can ANYONE name the poison Eagle 20 with the active ingredient Myclobutanil??

Doobie Nyce · Aug 26, 2012

I would like to point out that you can get rid of PM completely by finishing your harvest, cleaning everything impeccably, getting new medium, containers and starting new seeds!
Filter your air intakes and run hepa inside your room.

It took me the same amount to time to fill my room with seed plants as it does to use cuttings.

I understand if you are hooked on certain genetics, but most things are available in seed form these days.

peace

EclipseFour20 · Aug 26, 2012

Plant experts explained to me that PM spores are everywhere--they do not just accumulate around one plant and ignore others. Some plants are PM prone than others, like squash and cucumbers. A healthy plant can defend itself against attack and show no signs (sickly roses usually succumb to PM--but not the healthy ones).

And I agree, environment plays a huge role--but my environment (6 miles from the Pacific Ocean) is not the same as the one my desert rat buddy has (hot most the summer, cold during winter and can have almost zero humidity then a week later be over 90%). So...it makes since, IF his environment and grow chamber is not the same as mine...THEN his cure--may not be my cure.

But lets suppose we have identical environments and his cure still did not work...why? There is a thing called "fungicide resistance", you know...when the treatment that worked last time is no longer effective. Many causes for "fungicide resistance", but the best defense is rotating couple of fungicides with different "modes of action"...not repeating the same thing over and over and over and over. Experts assume between 1-10% of most pests, insects, fungi, etc can develop a resistance overtime.

For a nice simple read....http://www.frac.info/frac/publication/anhang/FRAC_Mono1_2007_100dpi.pdf

If we can control the beast, then maybe we can use less "cides" --as in insecticide, pesticide, fungicide....

Cheers!

Ichabod Crane · Aug 26, 2012

EclipseFour20 said:
Plant experts explained to me that PM spores are everywhere--they do not just accumulate around one plant and ignore others. Some plants are PM prone than others, like squash and cucumbers. A healthy plant can defend itself against attack and show no signs (sickly roses usually succumb to PM--but not the healthy ones).

And I agree, environment plays a huge role--but my environment (6 miles from the Pacific Ocean) is not the same as the one my desert rat buddy has (hot most the summer, cold during winter and can have almost zero humidity then a week later be over 90%). So...it makes since, IF his environment and grow chamber is not the same as mine...THEN his cure--may not be my cure.

But lets suppose we have identical environments and his cure still did not work...why? There is a thing called "fungicide resistance", you know...when the treatment that worked last time is no longer effective. Many causes for "fungicide resistance", but the best defense is rotating couple of fungicides with different "modes of action"...not repeating the same thing over and over and over and over. Experts assume between 1-10% of most pests, insects, fungi, etc can develop a resistance overtime.

For a nice simple read....http://www.frac.info/frac/publication/anhang/FRAC_Mono1_2007_100dpi.pdf

If we can control the beast, then maybe we can use less "cides" --as in insecticide, pesticide, fungicide....

Cheers!

I like this as it is not full of misleading statements intended to force someone into your way or no way. I find it disgusting when people attack other people because they point out outright misleading statements.

Good points by E420

Avinash.miles · Aug 26, 2012

good discussion!
i feel its a little hair-splitty to say we shouldnt worry @ because its toxic, but not poisonous. call me stupid but those two words mean pretty much the same thing to me... toxin, poison. if u dont care about reproducing, or already have ur lil munchkins born, use away... it wont kill u but maybe will mess w ur reproductive system, and MAYBE will give u cancer...
do i have that about right?

I use it, on very small plants, spray 2 or 3x in early veg, no pm ever since i started using it.... if i found something that worked as well and wasn't toxic, id be ordering it right now.

EclipseFour20 · Aug 26, 2012

Are all things "toxic"...poison?, and

Are all things "poison"...toxic?

I know, I know "a little hair-splitty", but remember water is not toxic...but it can be a poison,

Water intoxication, also known as water poisoning, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside of safe limits (e.g., hyponatremia) by overhydration, i.e., over-consumption of water.

Under normal circumstances, accidentally consuming too much water is exceptionally rare. Nearly all deaths related to water intoxication in normal individuals have resulted either from water drinking contests in which individuals attempt to consume large amounts of water, or long bouts of intensive exercise during which electrolytes are not properly replenished, yet huge amounts of fluid are still consumed.[1]

Water, just like any other substance, can be considered a poison when over-consumed in a specific period of time. Water intoxication mostly occurs when water is being consumed at a high quantity without giving the body its proper nutrients it needs to be healthy.[2]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

Picky, picky, picky? Not really, if we all step back from the forest so we can see the trees, things used at the correct dosage are usually not the problem--it is IDIOTS that think "twice as much will kill em twice as fast" that have the problems!

Excess of anything is bad, except of course---sex and cannabis.

Cheers!

RanchoDeluxe · Aug 26, 2012

Workers exposed to myclobutanil have reported symptoms such as skin rash, allergic dermatitis, itchiness, nausea, heachache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting, nosebleed, and eye irritation (CDPR).

In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (EPA). Myclobutanil is listed as a developmental toxin in the Toxics Release Inventory (PANNA).

Chronic toxicity tests on rats found decreased body weight and changes to brain and spleen weight, in addition to reproductive effects (EPA).

I fail to understand why a chemical that does this ^^^^^ would be willingly sprayed on a cannabis plant other than purely for GREED.

Would you hand a joint of this to your asthmatic grandmother with an ailing immune system??

Or would it be ok cuz she's female and no longer a breeder?

The entire case for using it because you want to get different strains from friends who have PM is lame at best.

Every time I take a cut from a friend it goes into a solution of 2tbs bleach per gal of water and is left to soak for an hour. It is then rinsed with plain water...all pests and PM are gone. This method is the only non-organic thing I do...and I feel bad about it.

TribalSeeds · Aug 26, 2012

EclipseFour20 said:
Are all things "toxic"...poison?, and

Are all things "poison"...toxic?

I know, I know "a little hair-splitty", but remember water is not toxic...but it can be a poison,

Water intoxication, also known as water poisoning, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside of safe limits (e.g., hyponatremia) by overhydration, i.e., over-consumption of water.

Under normal circumstances, accidentally consuming too much water is exceptionally rare. Nearly all deaths related to water intoxication in normal individuals have resulted either from water drinking contests in which individuals attempt to consume large amounts of water, or long bouts of intensive exercise during which electrolytes are not properly replenished, yet huge amounts of fluid are still consumed.[1]

Water, just like any other substance, can be considered a poison when over-consumed in a specific period of time. Water intoxication mostly occurs when water is being consumed at a high quantity without giving the body its proper nutrients it needs to be healthy.[2]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

Picky, picky, picky? Not really, if we all step back from the forest so we can see the trees, things used at the correct dosage are usually not the problem--it is IDIOTS that think "twice as much will kill em twice as fast" that have the problems!

Excess of anything is bad, except of course---sex and cannabis.

Cheers!

The water here in Southern California is both toxic and poisonous. I have a water filter just for my dog.

EclipseFour20 · Aug 26, 2012

RanchoDeluxe said:
Workers exposed to myclobutanil have reported symptoms such as skin rash, allergic dermatitis, itchiness, nausea, heachache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting, nosebleed, and eye irritation (CDPR).

In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (EPA). Myclobutanil is listed as a developmental toxin in the Toxics Release Inventory (PANNA).

Chronic toxicity tests on rats found decreased body weight and changes to brain and spleen weight, in addition to reproductive effects (EPA).

I fail to understand why a chemical that does this ^^^^^ would be willingly sprayed on a cannabis plant other than purely for GREED.

Would you hand a joint of this to your asthmatic grandmother with an ailing immune system??

Or would it be ok cuz she's female and no longer a breeder?

The entire case for using it because you want to get different strains from friends who have PM is lame at best.

Every time I take a cut from a friend it goes into a solution of 2tbs bleach per gal of water and is left to soak for an hour. It is then rinsed with plain water...all pests and PM are gone. This method is the only non-organic thing I do...and I feel bad about it.

Hate to be offensive, but sometimes internet sites that summarize things....occasionally get it wrong and/or present things out of context (to adhere to there philosophical mission).

For all things Myclobutanil...go to Chemplus information portal, they have all the usual suspects--I mean, all the govt/authoritative sites: http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/ProxyServlet?objectHandle=DBMaint&actionHandle=default&nextPage=jsp/chemidlite/ResultScreen.jsp&TXTSUPERLISTID=0088671890

Check out the info at HSDB (Hazardous Substances Data Bank) and IRIS (EPA Integrated Risk Info. System). The number of grams/ml given to the rats will make your eyes bug out--remembering the quantities being discussed here are not even close!

Not everything on the internet is gospel truth, but when you have a few sites that state one thing--and about a dozen or so govt/authoritative websites saying something different...then I am thinking, someone is wrong.

BTW...that Chemplus website is a great one to search any and all things chemicals--nice to have one portal to access mountains of gospel facts....Fuck Google!

Ichabod Crane · Aug 27, 2012

RanchoDeluxe said:
Or would it be ok cuz she's female and no longer a breeder?

I'll say Both my grandmothers have been dead for over 40 years.

Light up Granny.

TribalSeeds · Aug 27, 2012

Not only that but the study I read clearly states that the male rats had problems with reproduction and not females.

avant gardener · Aug 27, 2012

if you know me or read my posts at all, you are aware that i am not averse to using chemicals. that said, i think it's damn nearsighted to try to argue that mycobutanil and napthelene are not dangerous just as it would be ignorant to suggest that PM is not a real problem for growers.

perhaps the discussion should hinge on HOW dangerous eagle is, ways to MINIMIZE the risks associated with using chemicals of this class (to patients, growers, an the environment alike), and—perhaps most importantly—what effective and possibly safer ALTERNATIVES are available.

i've heard glowing reports from guys who have used silica @ 100ppm as a foliar to prevent and treat PM. i know this is safe, but as i haven't used it myself, i can't personally speak to its efficacy.

one that i HAVE used is bayer flint. it is approved for ag use, is hardly toxic, and doesn't cause cancer or reproductive harm. and oh, check this out: IT TREATS PM AND BUD ROT!

weird- i don't agree with you on a lot of things, but i was hopng you'd give the msds a gander and tell me if this shit is going to give me warts on my pecker or summon zombie jesus back to earth or some shit. you've clearly got a knack for this sort of noise, and i think people should play to their talents.

http://www.bayercropscience.us/products/fungicides/flint/

thanks dude.

medicalmj · Aug 27, 2012

Many studies that have compared non-organic chemicals to things like:

Potassium bicarb,
Rosemary-thyme-clove oils,
Bacillus subtillus,
Stryptomyces lydicus,
Neem,
Trichoderma harzianum
Pythium oligandrum
Citric acid and mint oil
Aerobic, plant-derived compost extract

Depending on the crop some of these have performed as well as the toxic shit. Greenscure (potassium bicarb), neem, serenade (bacillus subt.), and essential oils (Zero Tolerance PM, SNS etc) worked best overall.
If you want the absolute BEST fungicide I got it. It's called Pageant by BASF. But I'd never use it on cannabis or produce!

SeaMaiden · Aug 27, 2012

EclipseFour20 said:
So...what is the name of the poison in Eagle 20 and at what levels is it toxic?

It's not the myclobutanil that's a problem. It's the Cyclohexanone, napthalene, and propylene glycol that also present significant problems.

If there were such low toxicity of E20 as a product, then it wouldn't qualify for superfund clean-up dollars, either. Look up SARA Hazard Categories. For me, and in my opinion this should be true for everyone, the issues and problems we encounter using products like E20 are not limited to how they affect US. They have an ecological hazard rating and E20 very clearly states that it is highly toxic to aquatic organisms.

However, as I have argued ad infinitum (or, ad nauseum depending on who you ask), we have another HUGE problem inherent with ANY single-site mode of action "cides" and that problem is creating resistance in the very organisms we're trying to fight. E20 is known to cause resistance, and it's causing huge problems for apple farmers up north.

It is my opinion at this time that if a cannabis grower is going to be so casual in their use of any kind of "cide" that they should voluntarily limit themselves to OTC "cides" only. And that's not to say that I feel that anything bought OTC is automatically safe for us, I know that is not the case just as I know that just because a pesticide ID# is required to purchase even products such as Surround doesn't mean it's toxic to me or the environment. However, I feel that the vast majority of growers are far too casual in their overall use of products meant to kill, just as I feel the average homeowner is guilty of the same. Or those people who use antibacterial/antimicrobial products in the home daily are far too casual and ignorant of the damage they're doing when using those products.

I indict EVERYONE, myself included.

In any event, I can't upload the MSDS as ICMag doesn't allow for uploading of printed material, only photographs and graphics. But if you Google it and upload your own copy, go to page 5 of the MSDS. Then, when you get to the categories the product qualifies for (TCSA, State Right-to-know, OSHA Hazard Communications Standard, and the really fun ones to delve into, the SARA 313 and Superfund codes!), maybe, just maybe, something will dawn on those who so casually use this stuff.

There is a poster on another forum that's got 'farmer' in its name who says that he's taken some of his product to a lab here in California and has had it tested and it came out clean. I cannot vouch for anything he says and so far none of my own questions have been answered, as I feel there are some problems with the testing and results, most notably starting with the laboratory itself. There is no oversight of these labs that test cannabis and cannabis products. There is no set of guidelines, no qualifying body, no set of standards. There is no policy and procedure or protocol specific to cannabis testing labs, as far as I can determine. Therefore, for me, the original veracity of the testing itself, being called into question, does not exist for *me*.

I would really like to know, for example, how many cannabis growers who've bought this stuff and have used it know what a worker protection standard is. How many automatically know what I'm talking about when I mention PPE? How many allow this stuff to get into waterways, thus exposing the very aquatic organisms it's known to be highly toxic to? Does anyone who's using it outdoors really worry about controlling drift (the reason I won't use Trilogy or OxiDate unless I can actively tent and separate what I'm treating)? How many actually worry about causing resistance?

These are the issues I have with people using products like E20. It goes far beyond toxicity to humans, far beyond.

SeaMaiden · Aug 27, 2012

EclipseFour20 said:
Plant experts explained to me that PM spores are everywhere--they do not just accumulate around one plant and ignore others. Some plants are PM prone than others, like squash and cucumbers. A healthy plant can defend itself against attack and show no signs (sickly roses usually succumb to PM--but not the healthy ones).

And I agree, environment plays a huge role--but my environment (6 miles from the Pacific Ocean) is not the same as the one my desert rat buddy has (hot most the summer, cold during winter and can have almost zero humidity then a week later be over 90%). So...it makes since, IF his environment and grow chamber is not the same as mine...THEN his cure--may not be my cure.

But lets suppose we have identical environments and his cure still did not work...why? There is a thing called "fungicide resistance", you know...when the treatment that worked last time is no longer effective. Many causes for "fungicide resistance", but the best defense is rotating couple of fungicides with different "modes of action"...not repeating the same thing over and over and over and over. Experts assume between 1-10% of most pests, insects, fungi, etc can develop a resistance overtime.

For a nice simple read....http://www.frac.info/frac/publication/anhang/FRAC_Mono1_2007_100dpi.pdf

If we can control the beast, then maybe we can use less "cides" --as in insecticide, pesticide, fungicide....

Cheers!

Aye, shit! I missed this post (and a couple of others, for some reason thought the thread was only 2 pages). I guess I'm simply reiterating much of what's been said here.

avant gardener · Aug 27, 2012

tough crowd.
i wish they'd change the reputation so you could see who negs your posts.

SeaMaiden · Aug 27, 2012

I've always been able to see who repped, neg or neutral.

Can you see me now?

RanchoDeluxe · Aug 27, 2012

EclipseFour20 said:
Hate to be offensive, but sometimes internet sites that summarize things....occasionally get it wrong and/or present things out of context (to adhere to there philosophical mission).

Well E420, I hate to be offensive as well. The first portion of my last post was actually just the scariest parts of your original post to start this thread.

You were the one who posted that information.

It is completely terrifying.

Good luck with your philosophical mission.

Neo 420 · Aug 27, 2012

Here's my formula for taking care of PM.

Aloe Vera
Rosemary
Thyme
Silicone ( dynagro )
Neem oil

Works for me .......(recipe from CC)

Another way is to induce SAR's in young plants. In some of my studies of the dreaded PM, it seems PM will send signals to the plants to not invoke SARS, so it can more easily invade. If you can get the defenses up and have a all round healthy plant, you can avoid the PM. That is part of the solution cause PM is everywhere.

EclipseFour20 · Aug 27, 2012

Neo...is Pro-Tekt (Dyn-Gro's liquid silica) officially ORGANIC?

I thought liquid "in-organic" fertilizers (like urea and potassium silicate) are verbotten to the 100% Organic gang. Did the rules change?

Maybe I am not 98% Organic after all!

avant gardener · Aug 28, 2012

EclipseFour20 said:
Neo...is Pro-Tekt (Dyn-Gro's liquid silica) officially ORGANIC?

I thought liquid "in-organic" fertilizers (like urea and potassium silicate) are verbotten to the 100% Organic gang. Did the rules change?

Maybe I am not 98% Organic after all!

colloidal silica and silicone dioxide are allowed by usda, omri, and oregon tilth. silica is definitely organic.

i couldn't find urea on any of the black lists, and i know there are some products that contain methylene urea that are omri listed.

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Can ANYONE name the poison Eagle 20 with the active ingredient Myclobutanil??

Doobie Nyce

upsetting the setup

EclipseFour20

aka "Doc"

Ichabod Crane

Well-known member

Avinash.miles

Caregiver Extraordinaire

EclipseFour20

aka "Doc"

RanchoDeluxe

Member

TribalSeeds

EclipseFour20

aka "Doc"

Ichabod Crane

Well-known member

TribalSeeds

avant gardener

Member

medicalmj

Active member

SeaMaiden

SeaMaiden

avant gardener

Member

SeaMaiden

RanchoDeluxe

Member

Neo 420

Active member

EclipseFour20

aka "Doc"

avant gardener

Member

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