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Help with LED selection process

C

CimbaKat

Member
I've lurked at ICmag for a few years, never really posted. Now I have a few questions about LEDs. We're moving soon and will be setting up a moderately larger grow space than prior (Veg/Prop/Mom/Dad/Flower).

I don't know the space yet, so obviously a lot of things can change but in an ideal situation we will have :
8'x4' space Flower
4'x4'-6'x8' Veg/Prop/Moms
2'x'2-3'x3' Dads
2'x2'-2'x'4' Drying Room
Approx 22'x15' space, not including drying room.

I've done a significant amount of research on LEDs fixtures such as, Black Dog, VIPARSPECTRA, BESTVA, Amare Technology, Fluence, California Light Works, Perfect Sun LED, Timber LEDs, KIND LED and a few others I cannot think of at the moment. I have spreadsheets of around 42 lights+ and their perspective foot prints, par, price, yadaya.

We've used a Perfect Sun's Goliath and it was phenomenal, we got shy of a LB off 15 or so Autos in a 4'x4', majority of them went south due to an undiagnosed pH issues from our well water (went uncaught for month +), despite that, trichome coverage, terps, flavanoids, density, buds, the potency was unrivaled and only comparable to some of the best flower we've ever been blessed to indulge in. Few complaints, it's heavy as fuck, 40+lbs, impossible to hang by yourself unless your a mammoth, and runs very HOT. Anyway, we were sold on "high quality" LEDs and we destroyed expectations of what we'd be able to accomplish. However I've recently read poor remarks about Perfect Sun LED, such as them not responding to any emails as of late and not upholding their 5 year warranties, lights blowing out panels around 12-18 mo mark. Neil, the owner of Perfect Sun LED, used to respond quite swiftly to emails about a year ago, so I personally contacted him mid October about these “rumors” and I am yet to receive a response to my email. This sucks because we loved the light... I heard he was very ill a while back which could explain it, either way, this threw a monkey wrench into our grow layout I had planned because we're no longer comfortable using his brand anymore.

Since then, I've done a lot of research and still find it overwhelming on making a choice. I just found Fluence a day ago and changed plans once again.

Anyway Heres what the three light layouts I've been playing with:

LAYOUT 1:California Lightworks Set Up
Veg/Mom/Prop: 1x SolarSystem 550 (Veg version) a 0-400W light which is a 600W HID equivalent which claims a 6'x8' Veg (total 48sqft) light foot print

Flower: 3x SolarSystem 550 (Veg/Flower version) a 0-400W light which is a 600W HID equivalent which claims a 3'x4' Flower (total 36sqft) light foot print

Dads (Veg/Flower): 1x SolarSystem 275 (Veg/Flower version) a 0-200Watt light which is a 400W HID equivalent which claims 5'x5' Veg, 3'x3' Flower (total 25sqft/9sqft)
______________________________________________________
LAYOUT 2: Amare + CLW Set up
California Lightworks for Veg/Mom/Prop:
1x SolarSystem 550 (Veg version) a 0-400W light which is a 600W HID equivalent which claims a 6'x8' Veg (total 48sqft) light foot print

Amare Technology for Flower:
2x SolarEclipse 500 a 483W light with supplimental UVB lighting which is an 800W HID equivalent which claims a 4'x4' light foot print (total 32sqft)

Amare Technology for Veg/Flower Dads:
1x SolarSpec150CR a 150W LED which is an 250W HID equivalent which claims a 3'x.2.5' (total 7.5sqft) footprint in veg and a 2.5'x2' (total 5sqft) footprint in flower.

______________________________________________________
LAYOUT 3: Fluence Science Set up:
Fluence Sciences' for Veg:
2x RAZRx's: 90W LED covers a 2'x'4' foot print for propagation/veg (total 32sqft)

Fluence Sciences' for Flower:
2x SPYDR's (PLUS, 2x, 2p, 2i, no idea which one...) covers a 4'x4' footprint for flower (total 32sqft)

Fluence Sciences' for Veg/Flower Dads:
1x RAZRx 90W LED covers 2'x4' footprint for veg
or
Amare Technology's for Veg/Flower Dads:
1x SolarSpec150CR a 150W LED which is an 250W HID equivalent which claims a 3'x.2.5' (total 7.5sqft) footprint in veg and a 2.5'x2' (total 5sqft) footprint in flower. This is because the RAZRx doesn't do Flower as far as I know and Amare's SS150CR is the smallest high quality LED I could find. Theres also another option, a Fluence Sciences' RAY22/44/66 with the correct spectrum choice I think..?
______________________________________________________
Anyone know more about this than me? Or have experience with any of these brands (California Lightworks, Amare Technology and Fluence (SPYDR, RAZR, or any other). Any recommendations, suggestions, feedback?
 
Defacto

Defacto

Member
I wouldn't profess to be knowledgeable but after researching a bit am in awe of the HLG quantum boards. I doubt you can find better bang for the buck atm.
 
Lost in a SOG

Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
The important thing imo is the technology inside these rigs.. they are underneath essentially the same, hitting the main red and blue peaks and filling in the green enough to correct the cri for human eyes and provide it for plant reasons as well.. some add far red and uv some dont.. i would only advise getting a rig with uv in 280-300nm otherwise dont bother with either spectrum in flower.

IE generally they are all running a mix of the latest Osram oslon diodes like fluence probably are since they're owned by Osram, and many are now.

Or are running Samsung diodes like sol strips/HLG and quite a few others also are now. That are white but do lack far red and to an extent hyper red/royal blue.

Or running Cree chips and cobs that have a really good spectral output and are a great all rounder..

You can save 1000s by just buying the chips already mounted on star or linear pcbs with solderless connections and match the driver to your needs.. you obviously have to bolt together some aluminium L bar and do some simple wiring.

The other beauty of DIY LED is that you can change your setup around.. and the parts are never a waste of money..

I just feel like these companies arent really doing anything very special at all for the prices they are charging..:2cents:
 
jikko77

jikko77

Active member
imho, a minor info, if the post above meant uvb 315-280 nm is the frequency.

any uv-b led is too expensive right now, get a cfl if you want add some, but don't get too much on it, i didn't noticed much of a difference using it, over a good quality grow.
no idea if it was duo the power of that uvb cfl or whatelse.
 
Lost in a SOG

Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
Thats correct but 300-310 delivers 10% of the energy activation for UV secondary metobolite synthesis (epigenetic changes) that the ideal midpoint between 280-300, which is 290, does so its not worth adding that part of the UVB spectrum if it can be avoided, which now it can as there are 280-300nm chips running at great efficiency for UV chips..

So imo the technology is affordable now actually.. And dont get a cfl IMVHO unless its tuned to this spectrum because science shows as i said that 280-300 is where its at the rest of the ABC UV is more damaging than the return.. most uv cfl actually start above 300nm which is pretty worthless considering the damage from the rest of that poorly tuned output.

It seems that the epigenetics have generally decided in many species to use this narrow band as the inducer..

UV is important for us because cannabis quality is related to taste and potency, but arguably not as important as the quality of the central RBG spectrum theyre getting.
 
jikko77

jikko77

Active member
the cfl i'm talking about are the one used for reptile, which may have from 5 to 15% of their total output as uv-b frequency, depending on the maker/model.

About the comments on the frequency, all i can say was related to an old studio i've read a long ago, i'm not really aware of a newer one related to cannabis and uv, maybe i should research for a newer.

All i can say is, uv-b helps to increase the "potency" if correlated to other factor, if not that the increase is just so that i didn't noticed much difference, but yet... it was a "personal" test done smoking the buds and not using something to test it's thc concentration of whatever.

that said, the study i'm talking about was related to test the uv-b in conjunction with height and a possible increase of metabolism by adding co2 source with the right amount of "light".

here the source:

jikko77 said:
credits:
tratto da:
The Plant Cell, Vol. 4, 1353-1358, November 1992 0 1992 American Society of Plant Physiologists
REVIEW ARTICLE
Ultraviolet Radiation and Plants: Burning Questions
Ann E. Stapleton
Department of Biological Sciences, Stanford University, Stanford, California 94305

UV-B RADIATION EFFECTS ON PHOTOSYNTHESIS,
GROWTH AND CANNABINOID PRODUCTION OF TWO
Cannabis sativa CHEMOTYPES
JOHN LYDON~.*, ALAN H. TERAMURA' and C. BENJAMIN COFFMAN~
'Department of Botany, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742, USA,, 2USDA-ARS,
Southern Weed Science Laboratory, P.O. Box 350, Stoneville, MS 38776. USA and 'USDA-ARS,
Weed Science Laboratory, AEQ. I, Beltsville, MD 20705. USA
(Received 29 August 1986; accepted 24 February 1987)

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=302671
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=260046
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=296665
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=293045
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=293184
https://www.reptileuvinfo.com/html/mega-ray-narrow-flood-report.htm
Di: Beta Test Team.
Click to expand...
 
Lost in a SOG

Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
I checked the reptile ones like you mentioned out and those are the ones i was stating are incorrectly tuned for what we need and what they are now using in professional horticulture..

https://www.ledsmagazine.com/articl...ack-highlight-horticulture-presentations.html

UV LEDS IN HORTICULTURAL LIGHTING

Among the most compelling of presentations at the conference was a talk focused on the use of UV spectrum in horticulture. Peter Barber (Fig. 2), director of product marketing and business development at SETi, presented "The myriad ways that UV LEDs will impact society through horticultural lighting."*SETi is a UV technology specialist that was acquired by Seoul Viosys in early 2016. Seoul Viosys is focused on UV LEDs and is a sister business to visible-light LED manufacturer Seoul Semiconductor.

Barber briefly discussed lighting in the PAR region before jumping into the UV topic with the proclamation that UV energy has applicability over the complete cycle of vegetable growth and consumption, or what he termed "seed to belly" with the farmer of course in the middle of the cycle. Seedlings can benefit from UV energy in two ways, according to Barber - UV treatments can strengthen root systems and can prevent or suppress mold.

FIG. 3.*LESA's Tessa Pocock projected a future in which sensors would enable a closed-loop system for horticultural lighting where plants would tell the system what they need.

For the farmer, mold suppression remains a UV benefit, but there are many additional benefits. As we have covered previously,*UV energy can influence the appearance, smell, and taste of plants. Indeed, UV energy can increase nutritional value or perhaps potency in the case of a cultivar such as cannabis, according to Barber.

There are secondary uses for UV lighting in a farm as well. For example, it can be used to disinfect hydroponic lines that feed water and nutrients to plant roots. We covered such a usage*in a shipping-container-based vertical farm. UV exposure can also increase the shelf life of products after harvest, benefitting the farmer and the consumer. Barber said UV light can even be used to treat mold spots on produce.

SECONDARY METABOLITES

Still, it's the impact on the look, flavor, and potency of a plant that may be the most interesting result of UV light in horticulture, and Barber explained some of the details of plant physiology relative to UV exposure. In response to UV-B spectral energy (UV-B is the middle UV band spanning 280-315 nm), a plant reacts through a stress mechanism to protect itself. The Mitogen-Activated Protein Kinase signaling - MKP1/MPK3/MPK6 - initiates the response.

A molecular signaling pathway called UVR8 then is responsible for increased secondary plant metabolites such as flavonoids in vegetables or THC in cannabis. But the plants are very selective in terms of the spectra to which they react. Barber used the analogy of an arcade skee ball game where the inner targets deliver more points to the player than the outer targets.

Barber said UV emission in the range of 280-300 nm only requires a fluence rate of 0.1 μmol/m2/sec to achieve the desired boost for secondary metabolite production. A plant would need ten times more energy from emission in the 301-310-nm band. Barber said, "That's why LEDs are so preferred. You can provide that targeted region." That statement could apply to LEDs in the PAR and other bands as well as to the UV energy that Barber was discussing.

The mechanism by which the plant reaction occurs is due to a plant's epigenetic memory, according to Barber. As an example, he said cannabis grown at high altitude in Colorado has higher concentrations of THC and terpenes than do plants grown at sea level. The plants grown at higher altitude get more UV. Barber likened the plant reaction to a natural sunscreen. And he pointed out that sporadic exposure can trigger the reaction. Conversely, too much exposure can lead to cell death. Barer said the closer you get to 280 nm, the greater the risk for permanent damage, noting that "UV-C is unbiased when it comes to DNA" and that it would destroy cells.
Click to expand...

I had a look and there are plenty of studies backing this up and interestingly some showing the benefit of using 280-300 over any other to help kill viruses like TMV in plant tissue without killing the plants, and various other pathogens, again this narrow band seems to be ideal, not below and not really above 300..

Reptile cfls are designed and tested for reptiles not plants which is why they dont work.

:tiphat:
 
positivity

positivity

Member
Veteran
Setting up a commercial sized space to compete in a rapidly growing market with greenhouses, fields, and DE/CMH grows?

I wouldn't touch LED other than standard mass produced high bays. I'd price shop for absolute lowest prices and reasonable build quality. I'd only use it in a few veg circumstances

CMH/DE if you want to compete in flower quality. I don't see LED low oil and size flowers doing well in that situation at all.

In fact you might be getting set up to fail with LED in flower commercially.

Maybe in a few years...lol.

Around the corner the manufacturers are already looking at laser technology to hit the full spectrum necessary.

Actually not commercial sized. But same rules apply true for me.
 
Lost in a SOG

Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
^^ well i think you're wrong, its replacing HID lighting accross the horticultural sector, especially as the ideal spectrums are being calculated for each crop since they definitely dont all prefer the same spectrum as ideal.. ive run hps and cmh for most of my life, i like cmh but prefer LED.. LEDs just takes a bit of understanding, unless youre okay paying through the nose for some of these rigs coming through now..

The days of HID are nearly dead imo..

Get a par meter and make sure you have enough red/blue to nail the emerson effect and supplement white diodes and you're away.. if you want taller longer nodes you just add more far red diodes to your set up.. its tunable.. i always hated how wasteful HPS/mh/cmh are in terms of heat..

Most people dissing LEDs haven't tried em, or at least in the last few years..
 
positivity

positivity

Member
Veteran
I know exactly what I'm talking about but I'll respect your opinion.
The markets going to get flooded with real weed.

Not everyone knows what real weed is. They are about to find out
 
jikko77

jikko77

Active member
Lost in a SOG said:
https://www.ledsmagazine.com/articl...ack-highlight-horticulture-presentations.html

Reptile cfls are designed and tested for reptiles not plants which is why they dont work.

:tiphat:
Click to expand...

I'll have a read. thanks.

positivity said:
I know exactly what I'm talking about but I'll respect your opinion.
The markets going to get flooded with real weed.

Not everyone knows what real weed is. They are about to find out
Click to expand...

I wonder what it's suppose to mean ... but anyway...

Just a general consideration ... I wonder why people come here to ask or talk about leds, then when they got an answer there are complain or "absurd" statement...
 
positivity

positivity

Member
Veteran
Absurd is led advertising...no?
Give me a break.
Want to be disrespectful I'll give it right back

Outdoor killer.
Smokes HPS

Reality is good for stealth and micro. Period.

I also gave a recommendation for LEDS in case op still wants LED. Sorry it wasn't your recommended brand
 
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