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Short/Quick Soak Tea vs. Fermented Plant Extracts?

Lost In Time

New member
Having spent the past week or better reading through most of the "Fermented plant extracts" by Sophisto
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=94673&highlight=fermented+extract

and other threads on the subject, I wanted to ask the community or those who use FPE's if quick soaking material in water as a tea (less then a week usually pending material and wanted outcome?) some questions to hopefully get a better idea of what to use in what situation.
Like given how jaykush has stated lavender can be used as a miticide for spidermites. But also benefits the plants health.

On the note of FPE's, instead of using sugar and material, could I instead just soak plant material for X amount of time and accomplish the same end goal, maybe just take a bit longer without sugar or lab?

An if the above works, could I also do the same with fruit/veggies vs. leafy material?


I've got quite a few beneficial plants at my disposal to use, so I figured I'd see what is useful for soaking vs. fermenting as I'm more interested in the secondary actions they can have from a soak vs. breaking down (fermenting)

Like say, could the few rosemary plants around me growing be used to make a pesticide spray/deterrent through soaking? I know more then likely so, but most posts don't state specifics like ratios or amounts, and I'd rather not burn or kill my plant by playing with ratio's without a baseline to start first.


Lastly has anyone used either of these and know in what quantities of material to water to use in quick soaking/infusion for either pest properties or nutrient/mineral properties?

Dandelions
Yarrow
Mint
Rosemary
Lavender
Pineapple Sage
Cinnamon Basil
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
Don't see why not. I would be a little concerned with it being anaerobic without fermentation. Just a little. Think of a bad tea though you wouldn't be adding a food source.
With that, as hard as I've tried, I've never had a bad tea.

I do quick soaks when I'm concerned about chlorine. Fermentations have been limited to making alcohol.

Water alone won't break all the chemical bonds. Excepting for any natural fermentation, you wouldn't have the same product. Fermentation will free the oils and break them down. An emulsifier would perhaps help in that sense. Soap nut, yucca, I think quinoa has a high saponin content, or maybe a little organic dish soap.

Don't know, but I can see nothing but good coming from the experiment. How much good? Can't say. That would depend on how much effort it takes. I used to do it with every watering, due to chlorinated water. Sometimes a short soak, sometimes for several days. Can't testify. Can't confirm. It wasn't a hassle and only took a little preplanning.
 

Lost In Time

New member
Don't see why not. I would be a little concerned with it being anaerobic without fermentation. Just a little. Think of a bad tea though you wouldn't be adding a food source.
With that, as hard as I've tried, I've never had a bad tea.

I do quick soaks when I'm concerned about chlorine. Fermentations have been limited to making alcohol.

Water alone won't break all the chemical bonds. Excepting for any natural fermentation, you wouldn't have the same product. Fermentation will free the oils and break them down. An emulsifier would perhaps help in that sense. Soap nut, yucca, I think quinoa has a high saponin content, or maybe a little organic dish soap.

Don't know, but I can see nothing but good coming from the experiment. How much good? Can't say. That would depend on how much effort it takes. I used to do it with every watering, due to chlorinated water. Sometimes a short soak, sometimes for several days. Can't testify. Can't confirm. It wasn't a hassle and only took a little preplanning.

Hey thanks for replying, and appreciate the insight!
Hmm. Could letting the material sit in water for say weeks, maybe month or two at least do the same thing as what we're trying to achieve with sugar and material? As in a shelf stable "soup" per say, that would be full of nutrients and whatever else that can be diluted for use?

On the same track, as with kelp meal in this example. Couldn't up to a 2-3 day quick water soak of material extract useful properties?

Another question, would be if anyone has any other recipes/ratios of material to use for quick soaks as a spray for mites... They're a pain and I'd rather not mess with neem oil at all or any other products. Especially when we can all make em at home given the proper ratios.

Rosemary, Lavender, Mint, Basil, and others all contain compounds and terpenes that kill/deter pests, even mites. But its the ratio's that I wish we had a table for or baseline to start with. This way we're not having to experiment and jump to conclusions burning a plant(s) because we didn't dilute enough.

I'm fairly certain a bucket half full of any of those listed soaked in a bit of water over 1-2 days would kill the mites... But also my plants in the process. This is why I come to ask the community, if we could possibly come up with idea's and some real world info going as to know where to start and work from.

I know right now, Jay's recipe works, but also be careful as if not properly diluted can burn plants easy. - things like this even are perfect. They give a place of starting, to get the ball rolling.
 

Lost In Time

New member
Try googling a guy called jadam there's some PDF of his books,I believe he does what ur interested in.

Yes your referring to Dr./Master Cho's Korean Natural Farming. I've indeed read into his work along side Masanobu Fukuoka's and others like Bill Mollison, Ruth Stout, Teaming with series etc. But still ponder if it could get even simpler sometimes...

As back to the tea debate I'm curious if a decent amount of what our soil needs regardless of in ground or pots even, could be as simple as making tea for the short term to give a boost if need be or in the longer run use plants to feed plants with the likes of "DIY meals" using only whats around us? Or even a type of FPE with only water instead of sugar/mollasses? Sounds a bit odd, I understand the LAB helps the smell and speeds up the process along with sugar for a food source. But the more I think about it, couldn't we theoretically close the loop in our gardens with just plants around us through recycling in this sort of way?

As in very little need for outside inputs of any kind once established initially if any at all after... Even say kelp or lime, oyster, gypsum, rockdust etc. for our minerals and calcium for ph control among other things. Could "dynamic accumulators" for example, given enough bulk material in the area give back what is lost? With exception of the fruit - in our case, the buds also contain nutrients/minerals etc. that will be taken away over time. But that's where the whole humanure and urine idea come in correct? Essentially to close the loop effectively giving back what we taken in??

I know JADAM accomplishes most if not all of what I'm asking, but I'm more or less asking this. Is it possible to go even easier as to use just plants and water? Maybe add an airline for aeration to keep things aerobic?

If true even, I don't believe I or most would go that far (humanure), but the plant feeding plants idea to help be self sufficient isn't just a high thought now is it??
 

mintz

Member
I don't remember exactly what I read from jadam but what I did read was about just soaking in water and leaving it until it bubbled and fermented all by itself.so try finding that,I'm not talking cho,or u could try googling what French wine vineyards have been doing for a long time with ferments.
 

Lost In Time

New member
I don't remember exactly what I read from jadam but what I did read was about just soaking in water and leaving it until it bubbled and fermented all by itself.so try finding that,I'm not talking cho,or u could try googling what French wine vineyards have been doing for a long time with ferments.

Yes, unless we're talking about two completely different fellas, then it was Cho your referring to. (PDF and Amazon link to the book below) An I know about fermented extracts using his recipes, but they, like I said, use sugar. An as far as I know, not a single recipe there was just material and water sitting. Are you sure it was JADAM you seen it mention that?

https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/JADAM-Organic-Farming-Ultra-Low-Cost-microorganism-ebook/dp/B01BZHG1RM

An yes I know about the vineyard idea, where they ferment a lot of things in just water, but happen to have a hard time finding anything even semi reliable stating any recipes when it comes to that. The site Clackamas Coot has posted a few times in the past referring to a site on french gardening comes up with the site not being up anymore...

An that's kind of where I'm left looking for things of that nature, is the forums in topics here an there. But most just refer to FPE with sugar and a few quick soak tea's but most of us know those already. I was hoping we could find more lesser known plants that could be maybe substituted or even better on they're own per say for our locale/location using only native ones.

I mean ya, a simple google search comes up with all the usual ones, nettles, dandelion, comfrey, sometimes yarrow. Even just random garden weeds thrown in a bucket, but nothing else ever mentions soaking say apple leaves, maple leaves, roses, etc. <- used these as examples as I have an apple tree, maple tree, roses, etc. but I don't see any mention of a water soak/tea using only "water" or even fermenting it for weeks. I understand that LAB and IMO can help in that process and he mentions these examples in his book, but what about making it simpler?

Jaykush mentioned doing something similar in the FPE thread stating he just used water, but then again I want to know if we're producing a different end product vs. Cho's FPE recipes with sugar. (Even if it isn't say as strong of an extract with just water, but hey they're both free for foraging)

Can water only be used instead? An can this concoction be shelf stable for any length of time past it's initial straining/being finished? These are my two main questions on the tea infusion or fermentation. I realize a tea isn't probably going to be shelf stable for long, so would a water only ferment at least be?

To me it's all about literally only using everything on the site and no outside inputs in a perfect setting or as close as we can get. But obviously we don't have rice, bamboo, or sugar growing wild or as a staple in the US at least where I live. So for that scenario, those would be out. KNF is just another way to garden organically. Just as Permaculture, Forest Gardening, etc. To have a method (sorry for lack of a better term) or plan of action that works in our own setting is ideal and to achieve that, I'd like to never have to buy an amendment/food source again. Even including molasses or sugar itself in the long run. If my questions/idea are realistic of course :biggrin:
I do appreciate the discussion thanks again. :tiphat:
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
Generally, because I'm no expert. Open to corrections.

Sugar isn't really a food source. Sugar conversion is a means of respiration for yeast when it becomes anaerobic. Yeast also needs protein.

Alcohol fermentation: C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2
.................................... Sucrose Alcohol Carbon dioxide

Without sugar, only aerobic yeast will survive, if there is a source of food.

Everything has a little natural sugar. especially your apples. Rose hips would be good. Fermentation limited by sugar content.

Once alcohol content starts rising, the yeast will start to die off.

Lactobacillus fermentation :
I've used barley instead of rice..There's a lot of sources. It's pretty common.
Ants carry it around. It's been theorized that dirt from ant hills was first used to culture yogurt.
I believe that the purpose of the milk is to isolate it, but I really don't want to say. (Refer to original statement.) It's there from your rice (or whatever) soak, it just won't have a chance to multiply on it's own.
 

Lost In Time

New member
Given the slight sugar everything may contain even if only slightly, could it then ferment worth any on it's own? e.g. Comfrey leaves left in water? Or at the least is there any way to store tea's made with water for any length of time?

Generally, because I'm no expert. Open to corrections.

Sugar isn't really a food source. Sugar conversion is a means of respiration for yeast when it becomes anaerobic. Yeast also needs protein.

Alcohol fermentation: C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2
.................................... Sucrose Alcohol Carbon dioxide

Without sugar, only aerobic yeast will survive, if there is a source of food.

Everything has a little natural sugar. especially your apples. Rose hips would be good. Fermentation limited by sugar content.

Once alcohol content starts rising, the yeast will start to die off.

Lactobacillus fermentation :
I've used barley instead of rice..There's a lot of sources. It's pretty common.
Ants carry it around. It's been theorized that dirt from ant hills was first used to culture yogurt.
I believe that the purpose of the milk is to isolate it, but I really don't want to say. (Refer to original statement.) It's there from your rice (or whatever) soak, it just won't have a chance to multiply on it's own.
 

MrKnotty

New member
I do the quick soak teas with almost all those herbs. (Nettle, Comfrey, Yarrow, Chamomile, Mint, Lavender.) If I'm making a pesticide with Mint or Lavender I usually soak for 24-36 hours. I strain the herbs, add some aloe, pro tekt, full power, and essential oils. Works amazing. I also use the other herbs for root drench and mulch. I just let the teas sit for 3-5 days usually strain and water. I find that I don't have to worry about burning my plants with the quick soaks. I've burnt my plants crazy bad with FPE'S before.
 

P-NUT

Active member
Veteran
Lost in time, you and I are on the same quest, ive got buckets of weeds soaking right now in just water. Ive got tropical soda apple, pokeweed, lantana, wax myrtle, dog fennel, oak bark, seaweed I collected and washed, perilla, and a few others I still need to identify. I just fill up a 5 gal bucket with said plant then put lid almost on and then fill with water and snap shut. The offgassing from fermenting pushes the lid up but they dont pop off. I opened a tropical soda apple after 2 months and it still was thorny so Im letting my next batch go longer because I feed the plant material to my worms amd ended up with a shitload of thorns in my hands. The tropical soda apple water after 2 months was dark and smelled like a stinky medicine or ointment. I diluted a cup in a gal of water and fed vegging plants with no detriment. I also sprayed some of my citrus trees at the same ratio to see if it did anything since they have citrus greening amyways and again it didnt hurt but cant say it helped either. Next bug outbreak Im gonna test it on my plants and see what happens. My biggest concern is most of the dynamic accumulator weeds around here are also poisionous so Im weary of using them anywhere near harvest. One interesting thing I noticed about tropical soda apple is it doesnt settle like most other stuff does once you bottle it. Makes me think it might be a good emulsifier.
 

P-NUT

Active member
Veteran
One other thought. Most all the legume weeds around my area are former cover crops that escaped cultivation and almost all are poisionous so that makes me wonder if the soil microbes break down the poisions.
 

St. Phatty

Active member
If you look at the average hillside with a crevice running down the middle, the water is filtering through the humus on the forest floor all winter long as it makes its way to the crevice, turning it into a winter creek.

So the water that ends up in the creek has been bubbled, like water through a coffee filter, through many tons of decaying leaves, & branches, and all the micro-flora & micro-fauna feasting on them.

The Fermented plant extracts sounds like what happens when the rain water falls into the occasional deeper pocket filled with leaves & slow drainage.

Seems like in nature, what reaches the roots of the plants that are growing, as the water percolates through all that wonderfulness, is a COMBINATION of quick soak and long soak.

No doubt it works, met a local older couple that RAVES about it.

Part of the situation is, local water laws often prohibit people from capturing the water, that has soaked through all that decaying plant matter, and storing it nearby.

It would be great if we could use that water for a grow. I have water tanks on the hill for firefighting anyway.

But the way the water codes are, storing the percolated naturally ferment-exposed water - for a hillside garden - is Verboten.

It would be great if water codes could be modified to allow this kind of water storage. (come on water folks, just 2000 gallons !)

As long as counties & states have a 'we own the water' attitude, it leaves us mixing the ferment water in 55 gallon drums.

We need a Water Master who BELIEVES in fermented plant extracts.
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
If you look at the average hillside with a crevice running down the middle, the water is filtering through the humus on the forest floor all winter long as it makes its way to the crevice, turning it into a winter creek.

So the water that ends up in the creek has been bubbled, like water through a coffee filter, through many tons of decaying leaves, & branches, and all the micro-flora & micro-fauna feasting on them.

The Fermented plant extracts sounds like what happens when the rain water falls into the occasional deeper pocket filled with leaves & slow drainage.

Seems like in nature, what reaches the roots of the plants that are growing, as the water percolates through all that wonderfulness, is a COMBINATION of quick soak and long soak.

No doubt it works, met a local older couple that RAVES about it.

Part of the situation is, local water laws often prohibit people from capturing the water, that has soaked through all that decaying plant matter, and storing it nearby.

It would be great if we could use that water for a grow. I have water tanks on the hill for firefighting anyway.

But the way the water codes are, storing the percolated naturally ferment-exposed water - for a hillside garden - is Verboten.

It would be great if water codes could be modified to allow this kind of water storage. (come on water folks, just 2000 gallons !)

As long as counties & states have a 'we own the water' attitude, it leaves us mixing the ferment water in 55 gallon drums.

We need a Water Master who BELIEVES in fermented plant extracts.

While you can't capture the water, you can probably channel it. These deep pockets you talk about, which also serve as peculation ponds, can be strategically placed. Full of vegetative matter they can greatly help with moisture retention in the grow area while leaching nutrients into the root zone.
 

MrKnotty

New member
Dr. Cho's Korean Natural Farming is a wonderful manual on FPE'S. It's definitely one of my favorite resources on the subject. If you haven't checked it out yet, it's definitely worth your time. If plant fermentation interests you, he has tons of recipes and info the matter.
 

TRK

New member
FPE is some good stuff, and at the right price for sure

I started with them a year or two ago and have done a few different ones... Fish, nettle, horsetail, dandelion, borage, random weed from round the yard ones etc. To answer a question a few posts back, the main difference between the use of sugars with EM-1 etc and a simple nettle in bucket of water method is the way it comes out. The em-1 and molasses version comes out looking much more clean and red in colour and smells like em-1, sour and sweet. No mold will usually form on this IME

Whereas the nettle in plain water version isn't breaking down as efficiently and is actually kinda rotting and smelling more like a sewer for a large part of the process, which in my experience stays in the brew, and smell doesn't improve much. It might have a ton of white fuzz with it too, not necessarily a bad thing, just saying for a comparison of my observations.

For me here where I am, there is not a large perceptible difference in using the end-products made from either method, plants love both... My only deviation from that is maybe you want the added sugars and lacto supplement with something very rich like the fish, otherwise it might take a really long time to get right or just never get there and go all bad possibly. Maybe some added carbon source in there for fish too perhaps I was thinking, but I haven't got round to trying it yet. For something like nettle that is already high in iron and you add molasses, also high in iron, you maybe make something that is not optimally balanced. So there is much trial and error involved anyway I discovered with the different ingredients and maybe not a one size fits all kinda method

So as to the question of soak vs. FPE, I guess you gotta look at the source material and what you want from it. Like is high efficiency production of soluble NPK and other minerals your goal, or do you want secondary stuff, like triacontanol in alfalfa, or cytokinins in kelp, as an example. These compounds or other perhaps delicate ones like them might be harmed by going a few rounds with some hefty fermenting bacteria, is sorta how I think of it. I dunno if science itself supports that, or if they even are delicate compounds to begin with, it's just the way I have always thought of it. So for stuff like that where the secondary function is a big part of the main goal and not just the NPK etc itself, I would opt for more of a soak and less of a fermentation personally, to not damage anything I want to hang onto.

That's just my two cents as I said and all from observation.

It's a great topic and I dunno why more people don't do it as I have found it to be very successful and fairly mess-free when you apply a little common sense. And you can't get cheaper than fertilizer that costs only the water used to make it in many cases. Even if you do all the molasses and EM-1 you can handle with every ferment, it is still cents on the dollar compared with the store nutrient lines with pretty colours.

These days I have my own nutrient line that comes in battered old pop bottles with no labels hahaha not as pretty as the shop's but plenty effective so far.
 

bsgospel

Bat Macumba
Absolutely the FPE will accomplish what you seek. As referenced the big difference is efficiency. If your fermented product is truly anaerobic, I would dilute by half and then feed normally. This is also dependent on root strength. In a quick soak though, you cover any chance of nutrient mishaps by including sucrose and glucose which will turn into all other elements readily. Nothing at all against fermented or anaerobic teas but I'm usually in favor of getting lots of glucose into the mix as fast as possible.
 

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