av8or's PPK - First Grow

Mister_D · Nov 29, 2014

Seriously doubt changing nutes will do anything positive for you. Looks to me like you're plants are over watered. I'd try watering every 4-6 hours (closer to 6 if your media/environment allows). Might take a week or two for the roots to recover, but they should perk back up and start growing again :tiphat:

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Miraculous Meds · Nov 29, 2014

Fields~of~Green said:
Av8tor thanks for showing this it helps us all at some point down the line

MM you got a link to the documented 2gpw grow?

I don't want to derail av8tor's thread with gpw talk cause it gets controversial pretty quick, but check out any of heath Robinsons grows. Unfortunately they are becoming dated and the pics are down on the one I studied the most. U might be able to find pics on some other site that saved or copied it but if u look up heaths flooded tube vert on other forums is where he busted 2 gpw, and he did several other documented grows that beat 1.5 to 1.85gpw. On this site one of my favorites is heaths latest tree grow where he grows with flipping lights to save energy and hits around 1.8gpw with less than 1 plant per light! I used to think that there was no way it could be done but ive hit 1.5 with 2 plants per light studying what heath did, in combination with studying dhf's posts. I settled mainly on Ichabod cranes style with screens around vert bulbs. Arminius had similar styles of grows too before he switched back to horizontal to accommodate partners. And I studied a lot of other vert growers to gain concepts, fundamentals, and ideas of how to dial in gpw and healthy plants. Other sources of help that got me to where I am are D9's ppk threads, KB's coco threads, along with h3ads, and all the other coco guys.

Id share fundamental ideas with ya if u want to discuss in another thread if u want to start one, or pm me and I will share anything I can with ya that ur interested in. Imo vert is an important part if trying to get to 2gpw or upwards. So maybe if u want to discuss the ideas the vert forum would be the place to talk. Of course u can do well with standard flat grows but im not the guy to talk to there as I plateaued at less than a gpw there. I know that can be topped pretty easy, but since ive been studying advanced knowledge to break gpw walls, ive always went down the vert path.

av8or · Nov 29, 2014

Either way, I swapped nutes. Still with 600 ppm. Anyone care to describe the root zone I'm aiming for? I'm a little confused. My air gap is set at 4.5" and should be draining without issue.

av8or · Nov 29, 2014

Thanks again to all of you for the great advice and information! Getting my own grow operating efficiently is only the half of it. The process of sharing all this incredible information about a plant we are all passionate about is the other half. Even though my garden isn't quite where it needs to be yet, it's a lot of fun getting there and I certainly would be very lost without you guys leading the way. So, keep the posts coming! I think it's time for a dab...

Miraculous Meds · Nov 29, 2014

av8or said:
Either way, I swapped nutes. Still with 600 ppm. Anyone care to describe the root zone I'm aiming for? I'm a little confused. My air gap is set at 4.5" and should be draining without issue.

Hopefully one of the other 8822 users will chime in here but I will share some observations. I have limited experience with 8822. I have started rooted clones in small cubes then placed them in solo cups of 8822. Hand watered once every other day for the first two waterings. Then once a day for a few days, till I seen they called for more by almost being limp. Then I hooked up a watering system hitting them with little 10 second bursts about 4 to 6 times a day by the time they were a foot tall. I didn't have an open space for them So I left them in the solo cups and had to water 10 to 12 times a day. they grew to 2.5 to 3' healthy monsters for solo cups. Then I transplanted in cheap floor dry that isnt8822 cause I didn't have enough, this stuff was calcinated clay. It broke down to easy and caused lack of oxygen. But I wanted to share that These large plants with small rootzones I transplanted, I tried watering 12 times a day in 7 gallon containers and they just drowned. I had to back it off to 4 times a day and work up the waterings.

So IMO, if u start with well rooted plants and transplant to a larger amount of medium, u have to ease them into it. Maybe if u were to start with a clone in the pot ur going to flower in like D9, then u can use increased watering intervals right off the bat. Hope that helps as I think ur transplanting small established plants, and applying less waterings to give the roots a chance to spread and establish is what I think u need to do.

PetFlora · Nov 30, 2014

OP, you might want to check out my DIY Mini-Me F & D system

You could easily adapt it

av8or · Nov 30, 2014

PetFlora - Thanks for the idea. I'll definitely take a look!

MM - I'm almost positive the bulk of my current issues has to do with the type of plants I'm starting with. They're all well-rooted in soil and placing them in the 8822 and flooding it every couple hours seems to be really harsh on the delicate soil root mass. After a month of messing things up, I transplanted a Bruce Banner #3 that had been in the 7 gal container back into a 5.5" pot. The roots had finally swapped to hydro roots and were surprisingly strong. Now, this plant is the only one not showing over-watering signs, leading me to believe that it's almost imperative to start plants in this system with hydro roots. I'm going to grab a few more clones that are NOT rooted in soil and see if this theory is correct.

Miraculous Meds · Nov 30, 2014

av8or said:
PetFlora - Thanks for the idea. I'll definitely take a look!

MM - I'm almost positive the bulk of my current issues has to do with the type of plants I'm starting with. They're all well-rooted in soil and placing them in the 8822 and flooding it every couple hours seems to be really harsh on the delicate soil root mass. After a month of messing things up, I transplanted a Bruce Banner #3 that had been in the 7 gal container back into a 5.5" pot. The roots had finally swapped to hydro roots and were surprisingly strong. Now, this plant is the only one not showing over-watering signs, leading me to believe that it's almost imperative to start plants in this system with hydro roots. I'm going to grab a few more clones that are NOT rooted in soil and see if this theory is correct.

With soil u prob would have to water every other day, then once a day, then a few times a day, till the roots were dominantly hydro roots. The soil is always gonna want to act like soil and will drown any roots in it that stay wet all the time. A better choice if u chose to transplant already established plants would be to use coco, or 8822, as either of those are going to have more air than the soil which will help when trying to convert to hydro roots in the ppk.

Its good that u have identified ur problem and now have a little better understanding of ur system. U will be a better grower for it and likely be able to identify a overwatering problem much quicker in the future.

Mister_D · Nov 30, 2014

Forgot to add, if you want to increase the strength of your nutes, it's perfectly fine to just add more to the existing solution. i.e you are at 600ppm, and you want to be at 700ppm. You'd just add nutes in the usual per gal. ratio until you achieve 700ppm. No need to drain and remix :tiphat:

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av8or · Dec 2, 2014

The first plant in the garden, J1, now on day 30. Even though she's tiny, I'm stoked she's alive and looking like she's gonna make it. First plant in my first garden. I'll take the win.

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av8or · Dec 2, 2014

MM - thanks for the advice. I'll try to get clones with hydro roots but I'll remember to feed proper next time.

Mister D - thanks, brother. I swapped nutes anyway, but now I know for next time.

catman · Dec 3, 2014

Do you have fans blowing on the plants?

Over-watered or lacking some wind.. perhaps even lacking light... essentially the same shit.

What's your relative humidity and temperatures been like?

Still using the CO2?...I wouldn't bother at this point if I was you...

av8or · Dec 3, 2014

No lack of wind in the room. There are five fans blowing around nicely. I hope light isn't an issue. I have 1600 watts on that plant alone. Temps are 84 day and 77 night. RH fluctuates between 52-55%. And yes, I'm still using CO2 (@ 800 ppm). It's definitely an over-watering issue and I think it'll turn around soon enough. Why not use CO2? Is it because of the tiny plant size so why bother?

catman · Dec 3, 2014

Yeah. Same with the light...

When I said light in my previous post I was more so referring to radiant heat. I'm not saying there isn't over-watering at this current point in time, but if we can get your plant to start using as much water as it can, it'll bounce back quicker.

I hand watered turface for a grow and looking at your plant, I'm guessing you could go a week without watering it again.

Do you still have the 1K in middle? Maybe consider running a single 600w and see how close you can get it. Just feel the leaf with your fingers..I mean paws... if it's wet to the touch then get a little closer. Run the lamp 24/7. Keep us posted.

InGhostgrower · Dec 3, 2014

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Maybe its just me. But this looks underwatered. It looks like underwatering and overwatering are part of the problem. Also I know you want to run co2 but 84 degrees after transplanting a plant is considered a little warm to me. I dont run co2 and dont claim to know anything about it but like i said transplanting a plant is stressful enough let alone 84 degrees. I would recommend giving it a week after transplant before nuking them.
Good luck AV, but you have scared me away from this type of growing, anytime ladies are lost its a sad sad deadful day lmao. When I first started growing though not going to lie a few died before there time. :biggrin:

PetFlora · Dec 3, 2014

av8or said:
No lack of wind in the room. There are five fans blowing around nicely. I hope light isn't an issue. I have 1600 watts on that plant alone. Temps are 84 day and 77 night. RH fluctuates between 52-55%. And yes, I'm still using CO2 (@ 800 ppm). It's definitely an over-watering issue and I think it'll turn around soon enough. Why not use CO2? Is it because of the tiny plant size so why bother?

There is such a thing as light saturation

The goal is to find the happy medium between light intensity and the plant's ability to process it.

The more leaf structure a plant has, the more light it can process. The opposite for a small plant

It only has so much root structure to feed from

You are likely overworking its' ability to process both light and nutes

You only need 150-200w max over that plant

Miraculous Meds · Dec 3, 2014

Ok looks like u got some pretty good advice from these guys. Lets see if I can clean it up and summarize it a bit for ya.

So ur running that one plant that has been vegging for 30 days right? with 1600w at 84f correct? And she looks weak and has flowers on her.

So being that she is only a foot tall or so, only 100 or 200w would be enough light for her. I think ur running what a 1k and a 600w correct? If so cut back to the 600w an even dial it down to the low setting if u have one. If not no biggy just make sure the light is a good 20" away or so, so the intensity isn't too much.

U need this lower light till the plant shows vigorous signs of growth. Once u see quick healthy lush growth, up the lighting. U can use co2, but it is a slight bit of a waist till u get back to rapid growth. No biggy there though, id probably keep it running so when u do hit vigor, it already has the boosted co2 to help it take off even quicker.

84f is the top side of what temp u want when u have vigor with co2. So if u can back off the temp to 77f or so till vigor comes back, then up ur temp into the 80s. Reducing the lights should help u get there.

The fan and circulation are good, just make sure they aren't directly on the plant blowing the leaves around. Slight leave movement is fine. But if u see the leaves really moving adjust ur fans to the side.

Those things with getting the watering right and u will be back to vigor quickly, but u have to work ur way out of the flowering. That will take some time. What did u do, take a clone from a flowering plant? That sometimes takes a few weeks to revert back to healthy veg. Or are u flowering that plant currently?

Oh and I like the idea of hand watering once a day till u see u limping a bit from needing more waterings. Like I talked about earlier when I started mine in solo cups. After u see it needs it twice a day u can start using ur timer. Then it will need consitstently more very quickly.

av8or · Dec 3, 2014

PetFlora - I looked up what you said about light saturation. Thanks for the heads up!

MM - As usual, good explanation. Have the enviros meet the plant instead of trying to have the plant meet the enviros. That makes sense.

I have a perpetual grow going right now, so I think there's a little confusion out there as to which plants we're talking about. The flowering plant is a J1 that vegged for 14 days and has been in flower for 31. I had to put a plant into flower in order to start the "chute," as it were, for the perpetual cycle. There are two plants in flower and another two in veg, with a table of clones that I'm trying to get healthy so I can take the next biggest, healthiest clone and transplant it into the veg site this weekend.

With a six plant limit, I have 2 ppk sites in veg and 4 ppk sites in the flower room. I'm running 8-9 week strains and basically trying to move each plant up in the rotation every 16 days or so. I have no reason not to flower these tiny plants while I figure out how to make big healthy ones in veg, so I'm doing it anyway.

All that being said, I'll go adjust my fans, temps and lighting to a more suitable level.

On the topic of watering, going to hand feeding once a day for a few days has already shown signs of improvement. The leaves are starting to perk back up and I'm not getting any more signs of nute deficiency. There's even some top growth popping up. In the next day or two, I'm hoping to build out a final cloning/pre-veg thingy to put these babies in. Then, I think they'll be ready for some timed feeding. We'll play it by ear.

av8or · Dec 7, 2014

Now that my over-watering days are (hopefully) behind me, the plants are all showing positive signs of recovery. J1 has been in flower for 5 weeks and the Jack Herer for two weeks.

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Starting with hydro clones instead of soil rooted clones is already proving to be dramatically better. I have three Sour Urkels and three Dr. Funkensteins in here, next to a Bruce Banner #3 (which refuses to get bigger).

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These two Strawberry Cough girls have been working hard to recover from my over-watering spell. I don't want to put either into flower yet, but I need to in order to keep up with the perpetual schedule.

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av8or · Dec 9, 2014

One week after putting these hydro clones into the 8822, they're doing a lot better than my last few clones!

av8or's PPK - First Grow

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