When Is a Strain "Yours"?

At what point do you consider a genetic line to be original enough to deem it ethically yours and thus marketable? That is to say, how many different lines do you think need to be combined, and through how many different generations, to create something which you personally see is credible as a person's contribution to cannabis and sell it and/or gift/license it for sale within another line? Do you think it doesn't matter as long as your line is relatively consistent genetically in its progeny and you have the consent of the original breeder/source of the genetics?

Would it be only one or two generations of a simple cross between an extremely IBL and a polyhybrid, resulting in essentially different versions of the IBL line with some characteristics of the polyhybrid? Would it be ten generations of polyhybrid crosses? Ten generations of IBL crosses? Would it be a certain cut crossed to different IBL or polyhybrids? Would it be a certain other case?

Do you think you don't explicitly require the consent of the original breeder/source for it to be ethical— that it could be reasonably assumed or maybe a bit ambiguous morally as long as that original breeder/source doesn't say otherwise? At what point would it be unreasonable to assume their consent? Do you think it should be more open source, as in once it's released it's out of the bag and can be crossed and sold freely by anyone at will without the original breeder's consent with or without credit cited? Do you think there is a minimum plant run selection count required in any of these cases for the resulting line to be deemed credibly yours for sale which would modify your position on the matter— that is to say can it be done by the sweat of the brow and that would change your stance on the matter in certain cases?

I'm curious where people stand on this since cannabis genetics has historically been a very back-alley trading game. What do you want people to expect from breeders moving forward into legalization and cultural acceptance in regard to the evolving market ethics? Most of the breeders I have heard take this question on generally put it pretty simply that they don't mind what their genetics are used for as long as someone isn't making S#, BX#, or F# of their own stain, or that someone isn't giving reasonable citation to the originator of the genetics in any case.

When you have something by your own hand, that is different from what anyone else has, its yours. Until then, you are ripping off the actual breeders when you pirate their work.

if you are aspriring to release a cross for sale, the general rule is to get permission from the breeders who's seeds you are using. If you get permission, you acknowledge that breeder whenever you talk about or advertise "your" work.

What GMT said^^

Personal I don't give a F, what the original breeder think. If he sold his seeds, and I got my hands on them - I can use them for breeding as well!

Now is it cool to cross bro and sis from a seedpack, and sell thouse - No, it would not.
For several reasons.

But the second it's crossed with something else, and you start isolating and inbreeding your own cross. That cool, no matte who's beans your using from the start.
Id say it ethicly okay and a fair game, to use what ever genes you can, to do your own breeding.

Only one way to make a plant "mine" and that's to not let it out of my garden.I have seeds that i have made that noone else has.They are right here with me and going no where.This makes them "mine".See how that works?

Ethics and morals have not a damn thing to do with it.

This plant is for every body.If one feels different they should do as i have and kept them in their own stash.It isn't yours any more once you sell it give it.

I've always figured that once the seeds are out of my hands, the buyer/gifted can do whatever they wish with them. The first rule of being a good breeder is be willing to always tell the Truth, with a capitol T! Good breeders realize that a large portion of the value they offer is in the pedigree, or story, or 'lore' that goes with. I'm certainly not going to complain about another breeder using my genetics if they give me credit for my work.

I'm one of people who's taken 4-5 seed lines past F7. I'm not saying F7 is some magical number and that once it's achieved it's a strain, just saying that there is experience to be had by doing it. If reduced variation (stable..I hate that word) is your definition of strain, that can be achieved in far less than 7. In fact, I've done it with a double hybrid.

I'm of the opinion that once you've made selections, you're a breeder and I recognize you as 'owning' your work even if the original genetics came from me. It's as simple as that.

In these seeds business there are no real strains. its more marketing then strains. in different ''strains'' you have identical or very similar phenos. If you cross male and female you have your ''strain''.

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I agree with Mr.Greengenes once you buy the seeds then it is yours. Those breeders that make good selections and interesting crosses will rise to the top.

But what about strands...yukyukyuk

I would say it depends on if by it being "yours" commercially or in private. Once you buy seeds, they are yours to do with as you see fit. F2'em, cross em, whatever. Grow em yourself or give them away. I do not think its moral/right to offer those for public sale. Obviously everyone works with everyone elses genetics, but at least take it out a few generations and get it to where it is distinct and unique from the parents if you are planning to sell it.

ReikoX said:

Those breeders that make good selections and interesting crosses will rise to the top.

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Like Budwiser?

It's astonishing how much people fail to understand capitalism.

This thread has been started as a result of the controversy I keep stirring in the Greenpoint thread - because Gu~ is a hack who steals from others - and doesn't even make the seeds he sells or verify the mothers he claims to hold.

He's just a label printer and a website admin - stealing the work of others and getting rich doing so.

Playing you all for fools.



dank.Frank

If a breeder makes something special - then sells or gifts it on to someone - and then the gifted/sold one starts working with that cultivar and produces seeds/cuts which are marketed - then at least the original breeder and the lineage should be mentioned on the seed pack - or when the cuts change hands - and it is customary to ask the original breeder if its ok to make a cross with his/her work if the progeny are to be sold - most will be flattered by that and most will say yes.


I've seen it quite often when some new or older seed company takes someone's work/labour of love and completely re-names what they are selling - and they also lie about the lineage - never even mentioning the original breeder who might have spent many years getting that cultivar to where he/she wanted it.

Well it seems the only way not to rip off a breeder is to rip off a farmer in a third world country.
People do with what they can get their hands on and that's pretty much it.
Early 90's I bought 50 beans in Amsterdam, Afghani, silver pearl, Shiva shanti, Durban poison and early Skunk, first year they all cross pollinated as I didn't know yet how to tell males in Early flowering and was guerrilla growing. Played with the offspring for more than 12 years, ultimately I got a single heterozygous line (Three main pheno I hunted and used as breeding parents and 1 on 20 were the occasional recessive combination popping.)
When people asked me I said this was my no-name strain out of laziness to explain the process. I didn't sell beans but gave away freely would I have I think I would have given the lineage but claimed mine. When the outcome is nothing like what you started with the strain is yours I'd say.
Good times, guerrilla grow ops big enough for pheno hunting wouldn't be doable any more in overcrowded Europe now that everybody knows how to tell the plant

I have been making selections and chucking for years with mixed luck. Never sold a seed. Gave away alot of them. Never named anything. I just write what it is. I keep what I like or what shows unique traits I hope to add to what I like. I do not spend nearly as much time popping my own beans as I should. So much to choose from. So little time and space. My ultimate hope is to find one of my own crosses that throws few enough bad phenos, produces something I want to pursue and smoke alot of. And then dedicate a few years to finding some gems and taking the breeding more seriously for a few generations.

Thats when I would refer to something as my own.

dank.frank said:

This thread has been started as a result of the controversy I keep stirring in the Greenpoint thread(..)

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You are mostly mistaken in that regard, while it may have prompted me due to relative interest in the topic to inquire what others think on ICM I don't especially care what GP or anyone else is doing. I'm growing GP right now and personally I've never been done dirty but Gu or GP, though I fully sympathize with the positions and speculations you've expressed in the past, full disclosure. The disagreements of others are their own and I don't hold it against them, I may or may not have my own beside that fact but it is in no way responsible for this thread. I'm not going to put a person or company on blast by pussyfooting it with a seemingly unrelated thread, not gonna happen like that.

This is only a question of how people feel ethically and empirically in general, and not how they feel about so-and-so doing such-and-such to who knows what. If they want to apply whatever conclusion they hold as a strict meter against any party that's their business, I simply wish to cultivate different perspectives on the matter so I can consider my own perspective on the matter.

Gypsy Nirvana said:

I've seen it quite often when some new or older seed company takes someone's work/labour of love and completely re-names what they are selling - and they also lie about the lineage

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Gu~ would never do that because his platform is re-making and redistributing OTHERS work.

His ENTIRE platform is stealing from others and leeching on their reputation.



dank.FRANK

dank.frank said:

Like Budwiser?

It's astonishing how much people fail to understand capitalism.

This thread has been started as a result of the controversy I keep stirring in the Greenpoint thread - because Gu~ is a hack who steals from others - and doesn't even make the seeds he sells or verify the mothers he claims to hold.

He's just a label printer and a website admin - stealing the work of others and getting rich doing so.

Playing you all for fools.



dank.Frank

Click to expand...

I do like Budweiser better than so called craft beer myself, it's got to be in a bottle though.



I personally don't care much what people do, Nirvana ain't bad and cheap.

Like A lot of folks on here I've made my own over the years & purchased lots of breeders selections, once Ive crossed their with work with mine, it's mine.


This being said I don't sell seeds. I used to give loads away.


If I were selling seeds though & I used lets say DJ'S Blueberry, you'd have to give credit to DJ by either naming him as giving part of the plants make up or actually naming it in the lineage.


What people have to remember is the only reason that we have these things today is people broke the law, so the least you can do is give them props.
Hell 10% kick back from the pack price.



If I were looking to get into the seed business I'd be approaching breeders and looking to cut % of sales for access to lines.

They are your strains, when you haven't used anyone else's work to create them

something original is the go

Personally, I always felt like I couldnt call a strain my own until both parents were selected from seeds I created. Otherwise, If its just a simple f1 chuck I would always reference the original breeders that did the work prior.