Brewing Serenade and BT to improve bacterial numbers and effectiveness

EastBayGrower · Aug 2, 2015

Hi guys,

figured this is the best place to ask, i heard a REALLY interesting thing while reading through some outdoor forums last night but cant find ANY of the info again other than just mentioning this as an option..

so what peaked my interest is the idea that you can increase the bacterial numbers in certain foliar fungicides/pesticides like BT (caterpillars) and Serenade (PM). they both consist of bacteria as there key ingredient, and since we brew our AACT's to bred MORE bacteria, i dont see why we couldn't do a separate 5 gal bucket with say..

2 tbls per gallon Seranade
2 tsp per gallon BT
1 tbls blackstrap molasses
more bacterial food (rock dust, brewers yeast, ect..)
maybe some EWC/Humus also?

and after brewing 24-48 hours add whatever you want that will complete your foliar (ie, Aloe, yucca, horse chesnut powder, silica, fulvic acid, ect..)

does this sound like a viable idea? or can anyone see why it wouldnt work....

thanks in advance and i will be continually researching this until i find a suitable answer so stay tuned, going to look into research papers now....

Mikell · Aug 2, 2015

I'm not sure on Btk, but most Bti products are not live or viable spores and merely contain the active ingredient produced by the bacteria.

Trying to breed a specific bacteria or fungi one would think requires much more complicated equipment and methodology than the comparatively speaking (and in no way disrespectfully) clusterfuck that is compost tea.

EastBayGrower · Aug 2, 2015

hmm interesting, found this offsite, confirms my thoughts on Serenade, buty your saying BT is different? not able to be activated like serenade? hmm might have to keep digging

lol doing a bit of digging off site i found my answer... looks like people are already doing this and have confirmed that it does work....

pasting from other site....

"Well I talked to someone who I trust and he said Serenade works best when it's been activated; it's been known to be non-effective until it's been activated. To activate Serenade you are just waking up the bacteria and helping them multiply.

So just add a 1/2-1 cup of Serenade to 4-5 gallons of water in your ACT brewer and brew for 24 hours. You also need add food for the bacteria, here are some bacteria foods: blk strap molasses, kelp extract, humic acid and yucca.

I'm gonna use blk strap molasses and humic for food, then brew for 24 hours and spray, spray, spray...

I was told that Serenade should not be added to ACT. The bacteria in Serenade cannibalize the other microbes in the ACT! yikes! So it's best to brew and spray Serenade separately from other microbes."

END PASTE

Bradley_Danks · Aug 2, 2015

Good to know

Mikell · Aug 3, 2015

I don't know about Btk (B. thuringiensis kurstaki) at all (assuming you're refering to Btk as you mentioned caterpillars), I was refering to Bti (B. thuringiensis israelensis).

Bit too skeptical to take anyone at their word on a forum unless it's someone reputable. That quote leads back to Gr4sscity and a blog post from a user HTH, whom I vaguely recognize...

Contacting the company might prove useful unless one of the local microbiology heads steps in.

mojave green · Aug 3, 2015

Interested

lostenspace · Aug 3, 2015

Started a brew today with serenade and mollases. My serenade was 2yo. Will post results

EastBayGrower · Aug 3, 2015

lostenspace said:
Started a brew today with serenade and mollases. My serenade was 2yo. Will post results

i hope you have a micropscope

if not still let us know if any problems arise... gl and thanks

i will most likely start a brew tomorrow of serenade and molasses, some rock dust, yeast, and a couple extra goodies....

I dont know if you could mix BT and Serenade, but so far it looks like "activating" serenade seems like a viable option...

anyone back up the info that it doesnt work with "activating" the BT (im using Monterrey BT)?

lostenspace · Aug 3, 2015

My serenade didnt have that sour smell, might have been too old. No microscope, not that pro here. I'm in the pnw and concerned about pm. Worst case, plants got a foliar of humic, molasses, aloe, kelp, and bacillus casts. PH was at 7 per ph strip.
When I used serenade fresh, it worked well even without activating. I see activating as multiplying your quantity.

hyposomniac · Aug 4, 2015

Serenade has a ph of 4.8-6.0 as supplied, per msds. Not sure if this is important.

MJPassion · Aug 4, 2015

EastBayGrower said:
i hope you have a micropscope

if not still let us know if any problems arise... gl and thanks

i will most likely start a brew tomorrow of serenade and molasses, some rock dust, yeast, and a couple extra goodies....

I dont know if you could mix BT and Serenade, but so far it looks like "activating" serenade seems like a viable option...

anyone back up the info that it doesnt work with "activating" the BT (im using Monterrey BT)?

It seems as though your not understanding what was said about BT.

While BTi products aren't typically living products some of the other "BT" (insert strain id) products may be.

Just like powdery mildew & cannabis, there are several varieties riding thwarting winds of change.

I'm interested & watching as well.

RustyShcklfrd · Aug 4, 2015

The microbiologist in my family would laugh at me unless I prefaced by saying "there is nothing scientific about this statement", but I've noticed that after a soil dressing of Mosquito Bits, within 7 days the bits are completely myceliated (probably not a real word), and after having to go hard with it on the whole garden, 8 months past in the same organic soil, and no breeding gnat population to speak of. All the plants just got one "dose" as a top dressing and all the soil has been through a few rounds since with no problems, so who knows.

Mikell · Aug 4, 2015

Bits are made with vermiculite if I recall, a substrate used in mushroom production. Summit Chemical heat treats Bits and Dunks, they're quite sterile.

RustyShcklfrd · Aug 4, 2015

Word, like I said no science just gnatless soil and hairy bits lol, but considering how bad they had gotten , and that the summer has only brought more humidity to my space, I'd definitely go with them again if needed. what do yall use for Bt. It was the first time I've felt I needed it indoors, I'm usually cool with a reasonable amount of critters. * Just to add, it took 2 weeks to see a population decrease between 3 and 4 weeks before it was what I'd call under control. This thread is cool though, I've though about this a few times in passing.

RustyShcklfrd · Aug 4, 2015

Mosquito bits are corn cob bits coated in Bti. So that explains the quick inoculations.

Microbeman · Aug 6, 2015

EastBayGrower said:
hmm interesting, found this offsite, confirms my thoughts on Serenade, buty your saying BT is different? not able to be activated like serenade? hmm might have to keep digging

lol doing a bit of digging off site i found my answer... looks like people are already doing this and have confirmed that it does work....

pasting from other site....

"Well I talked to someone who I trust and he said Serenade works best when it's been activated; it's been known to be non-effective until it's been activated. To activate Serenade you are just waking up the bacteria and helping them multiply.

So just add a 1/2-1 cup of Serenade to 4-5 gallons of water in your ACT brewer and brew for 24 hours. You also need add food for the bacteria, here are some bacteria foods: blk strap molasses, kelp extract, humic acid and yucca.

I'm gonna use blk strap molasses and humic for food, then brew for 24 hours and spray, spray, spray...

I was told that Serenade should not be added to ACT. The bacteria in Serenade cannibalize the other microbes in the ACT! yikes! So it's best to brew and spray Serenade separately from other microbes."

END PASTE

This is by no means confirmation that this works. Such statements should be supported by legitimate citations.

Most of these products are in endospore form and it is the enzyme or lipopeptides which attack or block the pathogens. I do not know for certain what form the spores are in for Serenade but it is just a strain of bacillus subtilis which is common in ACT so there is no justification for the cannibalism statement.

There are certain fungal products (like Trichoderma) which can be sprouted out first before application.

BT is in endospore form. The endospore and/or active byproduct are consumed by larvae. Spinosad is basically the same as well.

hyposomniac · Aug 12, 2015

So practical question...
I'm down to 1/4 bottle of serenade... Gonna fill it back up w water and bubble it a while. Effective way to stretch the product or a waste of time?

EastBayGrower · Aug 13, 2015

Microbeman said:
This is by no means confirmation that this works. Such statements should be supported by legitimate citations.

Most of these products are in endospore form and it is the enzyme or lipopeptides which attack or block the pathogens. I do not know for certain what form the spores are in for Serenade but it is just a strain of bacillus subtilis which is common in ACT so there is no justification for the cannibalism statement.

There are certain fungal products (like Trichoderma) which can be sprouted out first before application.

BT is in endospore form. The endospore and/or active byproduct are consumed by larvae. Spinosad is basically the same as well.

wow thanks microbeman, your one of my icmag organic heros lol

I tried brewing the recommended dosage of serenade with a tsp of blackstrap for 24 hours and sprayed, im all for goign the extra mile so if i remember i will prob. do this again, unless microbeman or someone else fully confirms its useless...

I always wondered what bacteria and at what levels are populating your average AACT, if you could help that would be great, Bacillus Subtilis is one i knew, common in soil...

Bacillus subtilis
Bacillus megaterium
Bacillus amyloliquefaciens
Bacillus pumilus
Bacillus licheniformis

Microbeman · Aug 13, 2015

EastBayGrower said:
wow thanks microbeman, your one of my icmag organic heros lol

I tried brewing the recommended dosage of serenade with a tsp of blackstrap for 24 hours and sprayed, im all for goign the extra mile so if i remember i will prob. do this again, unless microbeman or someone else fully confirms its useless...

I always wondered what bacteria and at what levels are populating your average AACT, if you could help that would be great, Bacillus Subtilis is one i knew, common in soil...

Bacillus subtilis
Bacillus megaterium
Bacillus amyloliquefaciens
Bacillus pumilus
Bacillus licheniformis

I guess you'll have to observe for whether you achieve the desired effect or not.

Microbeman · Aug 13, 2015

The populations of species of bacteria, archaea, protozoa and fungi in ACT are going to be dependent on the species contained in the
[v]compost used. If diverse materials have been used as inputs to make the compost there is a greater likelihood of a diversity of microbial species.

In a scoop of compost or soil there could be over 100 (or even 1000) different species of bacteria nevermind the other microbes. Among the Bacillus subtilis species alone there are different strains/subspecies.

It could be a daunting task to catalogue the various species in ACT. This is one reason why using ACT is referred to as a shotgun approach. The microbes which are useful (or accepted) into the present homeostatic conditions may remain active [and thrive] while others will go dormant to reawaken when conditions change.

ACT can contain many species of fungi, including Trichoderma strains, many species of bacteria/archaea including those which fix nitrogen, cycle other nutrients through the mineralization processes, populate plant tissue as disease defense mechanism and many species of protozoa which are multi-functional but primarily contribute to nutrient cycling and provision of bio-available food for plants.

One advantage there is to using ACT is the development of a microbial consortium which is cycling nutrients at the time of application. [flagellates and naked amoebae with bacteria/archaea]. Whereas if one is applying a non-soluble fertilizer or just water one is counting on this activity taking place in the soil.

In a truly living soil, this taking place is likely and I know farmers who used ACT for years and then eased back when it was observable that their soil had reached this level.

I may be open to criticism for saying so but IMO this is not always attained rapidly, just by mixing up a measured amount of ingredients.

Brewing Serenade and BT to improve bacterial numbers and effectiveness

Member

Dipshit Know-Nothing

Member

bdanks.com

Dipshit Know-Nothing

rockin in the free world

Member

Member

Member

Active member

Observer

Member

Dipshit Know-Nothing

Member

Member

The Logical Gardener

Active member

Member

The Logical Gardener

The Logical Gardener