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Good defoliation side by side examples

Biologist

Active member
Hello, I hate to even open this can of worms, but can anyone share links to well run (clones, done at the same time with same conditions) side by sides with defoliation vs. without? It seems like every one I find on the internet either A.) Shows no difference in yield or worse yield from the defoliated ones or B.) Has a guy all gung-ho about his experiment at first that never finishes it and posts the final yield differences between the two.

It seems lots of people defoliate, but I don't see a lot of data that supports doing it. I don't care one way or the other, I just want to see the experiments so I can judge on my own.
 

LostTribe

Well-known member
Premium user
Hello, I hate to even open this can of worms, but can anyone share links to well run (clones, done at the same time with same conditions) side by sides with defoliation vs. without? It seems like every one I find on the internet either A.) Shows no difference in yield or worse yield from the defoliated ones or B.) Has a guy all gung-ho about his experiment at first that never finishes it and posts the final yield differences between the two.

It seems lots of people defoliate, but I don't see a lot of data that supports doing it. I don't care one way or the other, I just want to see the experiments so I can judge on my own.

Defoliation is not solely for yield, Biologist.

Defoliation benefits:
-Disease prevention around base of the plants with increased airflow and reduced moisture and humidity
-air flow in large dense bushes to prevent bud rot
-removal of lower material has been shown in some cases to push more growth to tops reducing popcorn buds
-Get light to shaded buds increasing yield

Been defoliating since my mentor taught me over 2 decades ago.
 

LostTribe

Well-known member
Premium user
Hello, I hate to even open this can of worms, but can anyone share links to well run (clones, done at the same time with same conditions) side by sides with defoliation vs. without? It seems like every one I find on the internet either A.) Shows no difference in yield or worse yield from the defoliated ones or B.) Has a guy all gung-ho about his experiment at first that never finishes it and posts the final yield differences between the two.

It seems lots of people defoliate, but I don't see a lot of data that supports doing it. I don't care one way or the other, I just want to see the experiments so I can judge on my own.

I would also like to point you over to the "New Grower Forum" as this obviously does not belong in advanced growing science and botany.

see here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=65676

Welcome to icmag.

I would also recommend using the "Search Bar".

OP, Moderators please move to New Grower forum.

LT
 

insomniac_AU

Active member
Are we talking about defoliation or lollypopping? Because to me they are 2 different things. I consider defoliation removing leaves from the upper parts of the plant. Am I wrong in thinking that? I always remove lower branches and foliage from beneath the canopy but rarely touch upper leaves.
 

Dankwolf

Active member
Hello, I hate to even open this can of worms, but can anyone share links to well run (clones, done at the same time with same conditions) side by sides with defoliation vs. without? It seems like every one I find on the internet either A.) Shows no difference in yield or worse yield from the defoliated ones or B.) Has a guy all gung-ho about his experiment at first that never finishes it and posts the final yield differences between the two.

It seems lots of people defoliate, but I don't see a lot of data that supports doing it. I don't care one way or the other, I just want to see the experiments so I can judge on my own.

The question it self is flawed . defoilating is for heavy indicas at appropriate times/timing .

Is it better yes and no its all about environment . some strians yes some enviourments yes . some not . kind of point less with out at least a few known variables .

:tiphat:


To put in perspective . lets say you ask what day of flower is best to harvest ?

Hope you get the point
 

Drewsif

Member
Every strain is different. Every soil is different, every light is different. Its all subjective. Thats the answer to everything Cannabis: "Its subjective"

"what works for one person may not work for another"

Defoliating is a myth. Solar panels!

Energy wasted on leaves could be used for resin production.

I think I covered all the answers you'll get.
 

Somatek

Active member
I would also like to point you over to the "New Grower Forum" as this obviously does not belong in advanced growing science and botany.

see here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=65676

Welcome to icmag.

I would also recommend using the "Search Bar".

OP, Moderators please move to New Grower forum.

LT

A search didn't turn up any useful threads showing a quantifiable increase in yields in a side by side comparison with decent sample sizes. There's lots of discussions about defoliation in the new growers forums but it's the same low quality info without facts backing up either side.

The lack of anyone providing side by side comparisons reinforces my view that it's still a theory that hasn't been rigorously tested, eith variations of Drewsif's answer being the norm.
 

BombBudPuffa

Member
Veteran
I tried it on a few different plants. Imo, it doesn't do anything but make the secondary leaves grow like crazy. Just my observation.
 

SuperBadGrower

Active member
I don't know any side by sides, but this person has done it and explains some findings:

https://youtu.be/xC7t4htH_ZE?t=2320 - 38:40 onwards, about lollipopping and defoliation

leaves that get < 200µmol "were not photosynthesizing efficiently (...) meaning they are not creating food, meaning they are a sink". They transpire and increase humidity.
 

f-e

Well-known member
Mentor
Veteran
If you can pull a leaf shading a bud, forcing a leaf shading the floor to grow, that's a gain. Unless your 12/12 where the clock is ticking, so you don't want to be growing leaves still.

Perhaps your pulling leaves that expose both buds and more leaves that can then work properly.

A single plant from seed may grow in a way that doesn't put leaves where bud formation would be lowered. But they won't think twice about shading a neighbour. They want to beat them.

If you do a multi strain scrog grow, you will find short heavy yielding plants can get buried by lanky bean poles. So you simply loose them. Unless you actively train everything. Which involves pulling leaves to keep the shorter plants exposed.


It's logic and reasoning. Not just a blanket decision you stick with for life. Every leaf is an individual case. I scrog, and if I'm a lazy, I can easily kiss 20% goodbye. Just as intensive effort can give me 10% more. So skipping the defoliation would cost me a grow a year. I would literally be doing a grow every year, to pay for my inadequacy.

I don't have a side by side to show you. I have decades of experience. I know what I will get from the grow I haven't built yet. Some have run consistently for decades. I have tried it both ways, and paid the price on each occasion.

In ideal conditions, the plant will grow leaves it needs to get bigger. Which will ultimately become shaded in many cases. Putting a parasitic load on the leaves that are still in good locations. The plant hasn't evolved to drop them, as they're stores for mobile elements, should the need arise. Such as an early switch to flower food, that commonly causes the N to be pulled out. If that sounds like your grow, leave them on for that purpose. But once that period is over, get them off, and the one's that are still being kept alive but were not needed.



I have told people to leave me to it, as they won't want to watch. As I have snapped down over growth, pulled leaves and left a full looking room looking decimated. With instruction not to move anything for 3 days while they recover. People almost fall out with me. They would never do a proper side by side as they just don't get the picture. They think they tried it, but changed nothing.

Yet outdoors I barely do any. Their shape isn't decided upon by me. Little more than nipping the tops and pulling obvious shade issues off is done. They grow monster leaves because they need them in my climate. And as they quit making leaves long before the light becomes petty, I really need all I can get. Though anything near the bottom comes off or it's the start of a rot party. You can quickly get a ring of yuk around the trunk where it reaches out from the surrounding undergrowth. If that happens, it don't matter how healthy the top is. The plants fubared
 

Somatek

Active member
I don't know any side by sides, but this person has done it and explains some findings:

https://youtu.be/xC7t4htH_ZE?t=2320 - 38:40 onwards, about lollipopping and defoliation

leaves that get < 200µmol "were not photosynthesizing efficiently (...) meaning they are not creating food, meaning they are a sink". They transpire and increase humidity.

Thanks for the link, it's interesting to hear some solid science around the subject. It makes sense to defoliate lower leaves that aren't getting enough light to photosynthesis effectively as a way to reduce transpiration/humidity.

That's very different from removing the top leaves to allow light into the lower canopy which often seems to be what people are talking about with defoliation. Like flushing it's such a widely used term it's hard to discuss without defining things first.
 

Dr.Young

K+ vibes
Veteran
Plant transpiration is one of the most important factors in yield.
Utilizing oxygen, carbon, and HYDROGEN is entirely dictated by temperature, humidity, and transpiration/watering relationship.
When plant, and soil are properly provided all needed nutrients, the rest will be how well they can uptake it based on ^

When you properly grow a even canopy, and have a evenly lit footprint with similar intensity from center to corner. The only thing that will hold you back is genetics, or co2.

Defoliation is for people trying to find a fast food approach imo, by observing the type of people who seem to "believe. Ive tried it when I was being greedy of heart myself.

BLD have wide fans, and thrive on lower light intensity so defoliation is pointless with properly grown\trained plants.
NLD have narrow fans allowing light to pass through, and thrive on higher intensity so defoliation is pointless because the plant is naturally framed to allow light through.

Either way they are pointless.. Nature has a way of doing the intelligent thing if you let her.
 

BongFu

Member
Very good side by side with weights on the Farm

Very good side by side with weights on the Farm

Hello, I hate to even open this can of worms, but can anyone share links to well run (clones, done at the same time with same conditions) side by sides with defoliation vs. without? It seems like every one I find on the internet either A.) Shows no difference in yield or worse yield from the defoliated ones or B.) Has a guy all gung-ho about his experiment at first that never finishes it and posts the final yield differences between the two.

It seems lots of people defoliate, but I don't see a lot of data that supports doing it. I don't care one way or the other, I just want to see the experiments so I can judge on my own.




I've never seen a good side by side grow done on ICMag re defoliation. However, I recently came across this thread on THC Farmer. The guy does a very good job of it using what I think to date is the best published/used standardised methods (control vs defoliation, fully documented and explained, use of exact same genetics through clones, lists control and defoliation final dried weight)..


Conclusion was


And the winner is.... Control group! (no defoliation)

Control group:
Plant 1: 142.5g
Plant 2: 148.0g
Plant 3: 133.0g
Total: 423.5g

Defoliation group:
Plant A: 137.5g
Plant B: 116.5g
Plant C: 130.0g
Total: 384.5g

Total yield 808 grams, 1.56g/w (average power draw during flowering)

@

https://www.*********.com/community/threads/defoliation-side-by-side-bushy-plants.101534/
 

BongFu

Member
Gotta love that --- link edited. So if you go to THC Farmer and search Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants you'll find the thread.
 

George

Active member
Do one cycle defoliated. Nothin like seeing it yourself. You’ll have your answer and you probably won’t go back unless you get tired of plucking the fucking things all day.
 

BongFu

Member
Do one cycle defoliated. Nothin like seeing it yourself. You’ll have your answer and you probably won’t go back unless you get tired of plucking the fucking things all day.


Loads of growers who have defoliated would strongly disagree with you. You've left out massive chunks of important info such as growing style, genetics and nutrient requirements. Look above - you will see a properly run side by side that resulted is lower yields by defoliated plants. Hey so if I take you great advice and pluck the fucking things all day are you going to send me a few ounces (you know, the ounces I lost because of your great advice)???
 

heatherlonglee

Active member
In my experience even the top, top buds that are under a leaf don't produce the size and or maturity in the time frame that I'm looking for. Not really much else to discuss, if you want small late finishing nugs; don't defoliate.
 

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