ShroomDr's Nutrient Formula Elemental NPK parts-per-million List!

tester · Aug 31, 2010

If it's 59% Phosphoric acid (like most pH down products) w/v%:

To get elemental P, multiply by 0,3161 then multiply with it's percentage.

(Phosphoric acid is H3PO4, so there are other elements in it, not just P. Use a molar mass calculator to get the percent of P in H3PO4, it is 31,61%.)

H3PO4 * 0,3161 * 0,59 = 0,1865 P

To get P2O5 from elemental P (use the molar mass calc):

0,1865 * (1/0,436) =0,4278

If its w/w you have to multiply these with density (in this case 1,42)

0,1865 P * 1,42 = 0,26483 P

0,4278 P2O5 * 1,42 = 0,607476 P2O5

If Canna PK 13/14 is what you want to make:

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/fert2.asp?ID=11387
P2O5=10% (= 4,36 P)
K2O=11% (= 9,130 K)
(assuming its w/v)

It is not possible to achieve these results with monopotassium phosphate (KH2PO4) and phosphoric acid (H3PO4) alone.

Use the molar mass calculator to get P and K % of KH2PO4:
28,73% K
22,76% P

These ratios will always stay the same, it's not possible to raise K without raising the P.

The best you can get is:
4,36 P
5,47 K instead of 9,13 K

For these type of calculations the best thing to use is a fertilizer calculator like http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2010/06/first-free-hydroponic-nutrient.html.

You put in the desired nutrient levels, along with the fertilizers, acids, or salts you have, and it gives how much do you need from them to achive the nearest ppms.

Bob_Dole · Sep 25, 2010

i just have to say...

AMAZING THREAD! No bullshit either....well except for thispost.

ShroomDr · Oct 1, 2010

This post started off as a response to a pm about doing a cost analysis comparision. I think its a good idea, but it would have a few hiccups.

I would base everything off 1 Gal of solution, but 100Gal wouldnt make the math too difficult.

When I was thinking about this i decided that the $/Gal would all have to be based off a set NPK, (or probably just two of them N and K). This is simple for 1 parts, Comparing Floranova to any of CNS17's would not be difficult, but once you start getting into two part formulas, the math starts getting more in depth.

Add to that, no distributor carries all those products, so the price comparison would be from multiple sources, and which formula should be used for the basis 100-100-200 or 100-60-110 (Rez/H3ad mix; the formula I use).

Im all for doing it though. Its just a lot of work based off prices that are semi fluid.

tester · Oct 1, 2010

If we know the composition (derived from...) and the NPK%, it's possible to calculate how much of each salt is used in that bottle, so we just have to take the price of those salts and compare it to the final products price.

You will be surprised by the difference.

But if someone can't understand that bottled fertilizer solutions are just some watered down salts, overpriced and inconsistent as they are, whats the use of comparing them to each other?

Why don't we buy the same salts and mix our own solutions for 1000 times cheaper?

staff11 · Oct 26, 2010

Did anyone post the LK? I bought it about a year ago......

Here we go:

0.1-0.1-0.5

1 QT 32 oz. (960 /v\ l... sorry /v\y /v\ key is broken all of a sudden...lol)

Net wt:
2.1 lbs (0.95kg)

ShroomDr · Oct 26, 2010

Yeah its listed. and it was also mentioned that the bottle makes no sense. 1mL of water ≈ 1g, so it doesnt make sense that the bottle says 960mL and the weight says 950g.

Scrogerman · Nov 29, 2010

Tagged, Nice thread!

jigneshdesai73 · Jan 24, 2011

how to make our own nutrients

how to make our own nutrients

Respected sir

Here you talk about made nutrients. But If I want to make my own nutrients in hydroponics that do you have any idea how its is possible ?
I want to use this nutrients in my hydroponics project in flower cultvation.

Give me the formulas to make nutirients and major to desolve with water .

thanks i am waiting for your reply.

jignesh

prophecy · Apr 2, 2011

ShroomDr said:
Another mix still using the Flora Series is the H3ad/Rez mix. They both use coco as a substrate, and their mix is a 2:3 ratio of GHFM:GHFB (6ml:9mL)

(They also add a PK booster 2-3X during flower).

GH Flora Micro @6mL/Gal = 97N 0P 16K 97Ca 1.9Fe +
GH Flora Bloom @9mL/Gal = 0N 60P 91K 41Mg

6+9 = 97N 60P 107K 41Mg 97Ca 1.9Fe

I use this in pro-mix since august 2010. It work very good but 6ml/9ml in a gallon doesn't work in soil. It work the first week but after you have to raise it. I'm now at 200% of 6ml/9ml which is 12/18! About 900ppm. Its ok but I have problem with Mg.

I think in pro-mix it would be better to use the 1:2 formula instead of the 2:3 formula! I will try it!

Can you give me the total PPM of the 8ml/16ml formula?

I think the rez total ppm is 490ppm!?!?

Thank you a lot for these information!!!

prophecy · Apr 2, 2011

These numbers are ok?

Rez 6ml micro + 9ml bloom per gallon = 433 ppm

Lucas 8ml micro + 16ml bloom per gallon = 675 ppm

With the rez formula we need to stop Micro at day 30. Same thing with the lucas 2:1? I'm asking this because the rez formula have much more N in it.

If I compare Lucas and Rez at same ppm. Rez have much more N and a little less of others. Which I think its better?!?!?

Any link about the Mel Frank ratios?

Thank you guys!

ShroomDr · Apr 2, 2011

prophecy said:
These numbers are ok?

Rez 6ml micro + 9ml bloom per gallon = 433 ppm

Lucas 8ml micro + 16ml bloom per gallon = 675 ppm

No, you cant add the ppms like that. 100N 100P 200K ≠ 400ppm.

Elemental ppm levels do not equate to a 'ppm reading' from a meter.

'PPM' meters do not measure parts-per-million, 'PPM' meters measure electrical conductivity (EC) (They then use an arbitrary scale to convert to a unit they have confusingly labeled 'ppm'. Different mfgs use different conversion scales.).

Im pretty sure the 6+9 Rezipe ~ .9ec

prophecy · Apr 2, 2011

Oh ok thank you for the hint.

So, any of you have mesured the ppm of 6/9 and 8/16 in a gallon of water?

ShroomDr · Apr 2, 2011

prophecy said:
Oh ok thank you for the hint.

So, any of you have mesured the ppm of 6/9 and 8/16 in a gallon of water?

Ya cant measure the ppm... You can measure nutrient strength...

My tap is .4ec and I think the 6+9 moves it to about 1.3ec (AKA Im pretty sure the 6+9 Rezipe ~ .9ec )

The problem with 'ppm' is 1.0ec = 500'ppm' = 616'ppm' = 700'ppm'.
So 1500ppm = 2100ppm. <-- That is a fact and its an absurdity; however they both equal 3.0ec. Just use EC.

prophecy · Apr 5, 2011

If want to have a total of 1000 ppm with the rez formula.

400 ppm of micro and 600 ppm of bloom give me the good ratio and the good total ppm wanted.

But is this the good way to add nutrients in water when using this formula?

ShroomDr · Apr 5, 2011

You are obviously not comprehending my last two posts (nor the one that started this thread).

I dont know how to make things clearer; examples, definitions, and simple equations. Alright one more time, and for the last time, 500PPM = 616PPM = 700PPM. Attempting to feed at a set PPM is ludicrous because 2000PPM = 2800PPM.
2000PPM = 4ec and 2.86ec.
2000PPM on the '500ppm' scale is very high (4.0ec).
2000PPM on the '700PPM' scale is not too too bad (2.86ec).

But if you use (EC) as the measurement of the nutrient strength, 1.0ec always equals a set strength, whether one manufacture calls it 500ppm, 616ppm or 700ppm. No one knows shit about your 'ppm' unless you list your scale, but if you say your flowering at 4.0ec, everyone will tell you that is relatively high.

(Saying you want to flower at Xppm is like saying you want an 'arms length' of fabric. No one knows your arm length, you have to tell them. The key word is arbitrary. The 'ppm' scale is completely arbitrary.)

On top of all of that, attempting to feed at a specific PPM (read: nutrient strength) is basically irrelevant, different phenos consume at different levels. The change (Δ) in nutrient strength is whats important, if the runoff is higher than the input, feed less. Conversely, if the runoff is lower than the input feed more (in general, unless youve fucked up the elemental ratios, something that wont happen using only 6+9, or a balanced feeding schedule).

FWIW i flower at 1.8-2.2ec. Im using the 6+9, Sweet Raw (carbs MgS)(@10ml/Gal), Liquid Humus (humic acid, similar to liquid karma)(@2ml/Gal), Protek Si(@5ml/Gal), and a little hygrozyme(@2-5ml/Gal) and SM-90(@0.5ml/Gal). That is why my ec is slightly higher.

I hope you understand by this point, that 1.8-2.2ec equals 900-1100PPM & 1260-1540PPM; these 'ppm' readings are useless, 1100 should not equal 1540 but it does, bottom line they are both 2.2ec.

prophecy · Apr 5, 2011

Its you that don't understand my last 2 posts.

I understand that PPM is a conversion from EC and depending on the conversion factor the ppm can be different from equal EC.

What I try to explain to you is the METHOD to add nutrients into the water.

Can I add 0.2EC of micro followed by 0.3EC of bloom which make my water have 0.5EC. This will respect the 2:3 ratio or the only way to had nutrients into water with 6/9 or 8/16 is with seringe and stuff like that? I just want to make sure that I add the good nutrients amount to respect the ratio.

Obiously, you think I'm a douche. I know that I can't predefine the ppm I will give to my plants. But RIGHT NOW...my plants need 1000 ppm @ 0.5 and I want to have 1000 ppm and respect the 2:3 ratio...so 400 ppm of micro and 600 ppm of bloom?

I'm in pro-mix and watering every time with 6/9 doesn't work because when there is not enough roots water stay like 3-4 days without re-watering. 6/9 is not enough to give enough nutrients for this period. Its why I want to know if I can add nutrients into water by applying the 2:3 to ppm (OR EC).

ShroomDr · Apr 5, 2011

prophecy said:
Can I add 0.2EC of micro followed by 0.3EC of bloom which make my water have 0.5EC. YES (If your water was 0.0ec)

This will respect the 2:3 ratio NO

1ml/Gal of Micro does not necessarily equal the same ec as 1ml/Gal of Bloom.
2:3 ratio has to do with how much product too add, not its subsequent nutrient strength.

Obiously, you think I'm a douche. I know that I can't predefine the ppm I will give to my plants. But RIGHT NOW...my plants need 1000 ppm @ 0.5

I dont think your a douche, i think you dont understand, but this is the first time youve listed a scale (a key component).

You claim to want to feed at X 'ppm', but in actuality you are trying to feed at a X 'nutrient strength'. A slight, but key difference i have been trying to highlight.

You can either list one measurement (EC) or you can list two (PPM) and (scale) EVERYTIME. Which makes more sense?

prophecy said:
I'm in pro-mix and watering every time with 6/9 doesn't work because when there is not enough roots water stay like 3-4 days without re-watering. 6/9 is not enough to give enough nutrients for this period. Its why I want to know if I can add nutrients into water by applying the 2:3 to ppm (OR EC).

HUH? 'not enough roots'? Youve lost me.

Feed 6+9 and measure the EC
next measure the run off
If the EC of the run off is higher than the feeding, feed less (try 5+8) until the runoff = the feeding

No one can tell you how much YOUR plants in YOUR environment are going to consume.

prophecy · Apr 5, 2011

The run off test can be made with plain water or must be made with nutrients in water?

6/9 and 5/8 doesn't have the ratio.

I added 9.6ml of micro and 14.4ml of bloom to obtain 1000 ppm @ 0.5 and get into the ratio (2:3)

After I added the micro the meter showed 647ppm and bloom 412ppm for a total of 1060ppm that respecting the ratio.

Just finished flushing 2 plants with tap water 100ppm @0.5! The run off of these 2 plants was 1700-2000ppm. I watered them with 10 liters of water each and the run off dropped to 700-900ppm.

ShroomDr · Apr 6, 2011

How would you expect to get an accurate portrait of your EC if you are checking the run off after using plain water? Do you think it would be possible to get a lower EC runoff than the plain water you just added?

Good luck. Your insistence on staying with the an arbitrary 'ppm' scale seems an indicator of your abilities to learn and adjust to newly acquired information.

2:3 is not some perfect ratio, lucas is 1:2, and 5:8 falls between these two. Use 5:7.5 if you want to keep the 2:3

prophecy · Apr 6, 2011

Wow man you make me crazy with your EC thing.

My water is 0.1EC and the run off is 4.0EC !!!! The water is 0.1EC and at the exit its 4.0EC !!!!!!

Turn that the way you want but how it can be better with a 0.4EC mix to make the run off instead of 0.1EC plain water?

Are you trying to tell me that with a 0.5EC watering my run off could have been 2.0EC instead of 4.0EC?

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