Cannabinoids vis a vis Opioids.

Soooo, how about those opioids?? Thank our creator for their availability when needed to insulate our senses from serious pain, but OMG, look at the destruction in its wake from addictions!!!!!!!!

Powerful enough that trusting them to the individual user to regulate usage, has as a matter of public record proven one of mankind’s serious shortfalls.

Once in its grips, sensibilities change, as can morals and public responsibilities. Like so many tools misused, there is nothing worse or more dangerous than a dumb hammer.

Today I watched a news presentation relating that the average US citizen’s projected live span was just reduced, after the number of overdose deaths since the previous study doubled. Not the down and out drug addict from a bad fix, but family members that we can all relate to.

More at:

https://thealchemistresource.thealchemistresource.com/p/cannabinoids-vis-vis-opioids.html

I was given 30 Oxycodone pills for less than $2 after my dental surgery last November. I didn't eat any of them. Swallowing a few hundred mg of aged hashish was a good enough painkiller regardless my established high tolerance. I kind of wanted to let the weed wear off to test the two against each other, but I didn't get around to it.
My genius of a professional dentist left me with an infected wound as well. The oxy he dished out without me even mentioning a thing on the topic of painkillers. The next day I had to go back and ask for antibiotics. Prescriptions of antibiotics have been restricted because of fear that letting too many of them out into society will end up causing us some really big problems down the line.

That link isn't working.

Gray Wolf said:

.....Powerful enough that trusting them to the individual user to regulate usage, has as a matter of public record proven one of mankind’s serious shortfalls.

Once in its grips, sensibilities change, as can morals and public responsibilities.....

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I'm sorry you lost a family member to overdose but you are spreading nonsense here Gray regarding opiates. human addiction troubles are not caused by certain substances and demonizing a different flower is really the wrong track to go down in a time when so much science is available on the subject.

a tiny % of humans have problems with opiates but the vast majority of us take as directed for pain or to catch a buzz without mayhem erupting.

it is wonderful that many who want to stop relying on opiates can easily transition to cannabis if you provide them with the right chemotype, for most people that's gassy strains like OG's.

if you stick with opiates in their natural forms outside the prohibition context, they are quite safe for humans.
once you start messing with them and changing their blood/brain speed it gets far more dangerous and these synthetics can't be mixed and dosed safely outside a lab. that's one of America's serious shortfalls, adulteration of what used to be a plant preparation with deadly synthetic pharmaceuticals for higher profits and calling that shit Heroin in the media.

let Dr Hart school you some with contemporary science on the matter.
[YOUTUBEIF]AzupwJDje_4[/YOUTUBEIF]

Chunkypigs said:

I'm sorry you lost a family member to overdose but you are spreading nonsense here Gray regarding opiates.

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Nice video and theory, but I don't see how it changes the fact we have a growing national opiate addiction problem and that non addictive cannabinoid concentrates provide an alternative.

My niece was fully functioning, did not grow up in poverty, and did not suffer from racial biases.

Another measure of addiction, is what happens when you suddenly take the substance away...........

I don't blame it on the plant. I blame it on what is happening with our use of the plant, and note that the cold hard facts are that opiates have a significantly higher potential and history of abuse, regardless of whose theories we ascribe to.

Mick said:

That link isn't working.

Click to expand...

https://thealchemistresource.thealchemistresource.com/p/cannabinoids-vis-vis-opioids.html

The link again, if it doesn't open follow the instructions in my ICMAG Signature below on how to open it.


“I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way I want to.” Johnny Allen Hendrix


Neurologic transmitted by Timothy and Joanna,

https://mirror.explodie.org/Timothy Leary - Neurologic.pdf

Gray Wolf said:

Nice video and theory, but I don't see how it changes the fact we have a growing national opiate addiction problem and that non addictive cannabinoid concentrates provide an alternative.

My niece was fully functioning, did not grow up in poverty, and did not suffer from racial biases.

Another measure of addiction, is what happens when you suddenly take the substance away...........

I don't blame it on the plant. I blame it on what is happening with our use of the plant, and note that the cold hard facts are that opiates have a significantly higher potential and history of abuse, regardless of whose theories we ascribe to.

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Blame it on the dysfunctionality of society and their misunderstanding of addiction. People are addicted to the relief they're getting from their problem. Whether it's video games, tennis, rock climbing, movie watching, using drugs or whatever, the issue is in the person and not the drugs.

Raw opiates are significantly closer to cannabis than the highly refined 'drugs' being prescribed for pain, as ChunkyPigs pointed out. Both are abused by people who don't understand what's going on in their heads. Opiates are a bit more negative, due to the physical addiction which happens. High CBD cannabis has been found to help anyone going through withdrawals.

Both have their place. Again, it's the misunderstanding of addiction which is demonizing the natural tools of nature.

yeah icmag is trying to protect member from un encrypted links.

but you can copy past the url open a new window and paste it in, remove the s from the htpps and it should load up fine.

thats really interesting, i do know that some people definitely do get addicted to the point where their whole day is spent running after drugs, so not sure how clever it is telling people crack cocaine isn't really addictive, because not everyone loses control of their life after getting introduced to it, lol. of course many more would maintain control of their lives if they could get medically clean drugs at reasonable prices, but that doesn't mean they aren't addicted. seems to me there is a difference between drugs too, if a Heroin addict gets good quality stuff at fair prices he is no trouble to society, with free base cocaine it's different, people are much more intense about getting more and more and in the end they will stop using or die. i imagine it's the same with crack, it's also more prone to make people aggressive then opiates.

I used oils in 08 to make the final kick and now they have no hold on me

all of that said one reason I wanted to quit is they really muted the sativa experience and without that connection life was pretty empty

gaiusmarius said:

thats really interesting, i do know that some people definitely do get addicted to the point where their whole day is spent running after drugs, so not sure how clever it is telling people crack cocaine isn't really addictive

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That's not what we're saying.

Addictive behavior is due to satiating something which is uncomfortable. Crack cocaine is extremely chemically addictive, your brain feels wrong without it. The chemical addiction process happens much quicker than with opiates, again due to the highly refined nature of the chemical.

When the original issue is resolved, and the chemical is no longer in the body, the desire to use is not there.

thats what the professor in the video Chunkypigs posted said, i should have specified.

gaiusmarius said:

thats what the professor in the video Chunkypigs posted said, i should have specified.

Click to expand...

Ooops, hadn't watched that yet.

Many years ago I heard Gore Vidal in a Pacifica KPFK radio interview go into detail of how it was before drug regulation, how inexpensive it would be to provide all the drugs to anyone and everyone that desires them, and the effects to be expected.



Drugs: Case for Legalizing Marijuana
By GORE VIDAL

In the Long Run It Would Save Lives And End Hypocrisy

It is possible to stop most drug addiction in the United States within a very short time. Simply make all drugs available and sell them at cost. Label each drug with a precise description of what effect--good and bad--the drug will have on whoever takes it. This will require heroic honesty. Don't say that marijuana is addictive or dangerous when it is neither, as millions of people know--unlike "speed," which kills most unpleasantly, or heroin, which is addictive and difficult to kick.

For the record, I have tried--once--almost every drug and liked none, disproving the popular Fu Manchu theory that a single whiff of opium will enslave the mind. Nevertheless many drugs are bad for certain people to take and they should be told about them in a sensible way.

Along with exhortation and warning, it might be good for our citizens to recall (or learn for the first time) that the United States was the creation of men who believed that each man has the right to do what he wants with his own life as long as he does not interfere with his neighbor's pursuit of happiness (that his neighbor's idea of happiness is persecuting others does confuse matters a bit).

This is a startling notion to the current generation of Americans who reflect on our system of public education which has made the Bill of Rights, literally, unacceptable to a majority of high school graduates (see the annual Purdue reports) who now form the "silent majority"--a phrase which that underestimated wit Richard Nixon took from Homer who used it to describe the dead.

Now one can hear the warning rumble begin: if everyone is allowed to take drugs everyone will and the GNP will decrease, the Commies will stop us from making everyone free, and we shall end up a race of Zombies, passively murmuring "groovie" to one another. Alarming thought. Yet it seems most unlikely that any reasonably sane person will become a drug addict if he knows in advance what addiction is going to be like.

Is everyone reasonably sane? No. Some people will always become drug addicts just as some people will always become alcoholics, and it is just too bad. Every man, however, has the power (and should have the right) to kill himself if he chooses. But since most men don't, they won't be mainliners either. Nevertheless, forbidding people things they like or think they might enjoy only makes them want those things all the more. This psychological insight is, for some mysterious reason, perennially denied our governors.

It is a lucky thing for the American moralist that our country has always existed in a kind of time-vacuum: we have no public memory of anything that happened before last Tuesday. No one in Washington today recalls what happened during the years alcohol was forbidden to the people by a Congress that thought it had a divine mission to stamp out Demon Rum and so launched the greatest crime wave in the country's history, caused thousands of deaths from bad alcohol, and created a general (and persisting) contempt for the laws of the United States.

The same thing is happening today. But the government has learned nothing from past attempts at prohibition, not to mention repression.

Last year when the supply of Mexican marijuana was slightly curtailed by the Feds, the pushers got the kids hooked on heroin and deaths increased dramatically, particularly in New York. Whose fault? Evil men like the Mafiosi? Permissive Dr. Spock? Wild-eyed Dr. Leary? No.

The Government of the United States was responsible for those deaths. The bureaucratic machine has a vested interest in playing cops and robbers. Both the Bureau of Narcotics and the Mafia want strong laws against the sale and use of drugs because if drugs are sold at cost there would be no money in it for anyone.

If there was no money in it for the Mafia, there would be no friendly playground pushers, and addicts would not commit crimes to pay for the next fix. Finally, if there was no money in it, the Bureau of Narcotics would wither away, something they're not about to do without a struggle.

Will anything sensible be done? Of course not. The American people are as devoted to the idea of sin and its punishment as they are to making money--and fighting drugs is nearly as big a business as pushing them. Since the combination of sin and money is irresistible (particularly to the professional politician), the situation will only grow worse.

Gore Vidal, playwright and novelist, is the author of the newly published "Two Sisters."


http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/03/01/home/vidal-drugs.html

the real problem here is lack of information and mis information that is used to prop up prohibition.

people don't know that opiates and alcohol slow your breathing and your heart on their own but rarely kill you when used alone.

mix them together and throw in a benzo class mood drug on top and they potentiate each other and you nod out and die like we see so often these days.

Americans get no real substance education just a bunch of fried egg brain on drugs videos.

prohibition in the age of designer opiates is russian roulette for street users and what they are buying isn't a souped up plant based concoction anymore.

the real truth is that cannabis manages chronic pain better than opiates if you can get access to the right strains and preparations.

that info won't get shared by the media until regulated canna comes to town and then you still have to wait for all the brainwashed old people die and take their mistaken views to their personal necrodestinations.

in the mean time about 1% of our population will always have mental or drug problems and that will never be changed by locking up people who want a buzz.

here's my own recent experience
hernia surgery, not in agony after, but not pain free either
had a prescription of the dreaded oxy's, took 1
for the 1st half hour or so, sit still or suffer, don't move that head
after, a kind of agitation with minimal pain relief, couldn't sleep for shit with that crap in my system
next days, oxy's in garbage, opiates have no attraction for me, at least anything i've been prescribed

I've been led to believe and have accepted that addicted brothers and sisters have deeper underlying issues, but there seems to be no disagreement that they are addicted and their addictions can be seriously problematic and life altering.

Over my lifetime I've watched relatives, friends, and associates destroy their lives with alcohol, opiates, and speed. They would most likely all agree with the premise that the problem was pain avoidance, including from past life's experiences. Knowing that didn't change their situation.

The purpose of this thread is not proscription, but to point out that cannabinoids are a less potentially addictive and damaging solution to the itch that some of them are trying to scratch, than opioids, and can actually even ameliorate the problem by aiding with opioid withdrawal.

To accomplish that end, we are taking the natural cannabis plant material and reducing it to a concentrate, or even creating isomers, no it is no longer any more "natural", than opium, heroin, or aspirin.

The key point is that the cannabinoids work and present less undesirable side effects that the opioids, so are a better alternative.

I think it's safe to say that cannabis can be used as a good harm reduction strategy when dealing with opioid addiction.

I should probably just keep my mouth shut but I think I need to chime in here. I don't want to insult Gray Wolf (and, it always seems like I'm insulting someone LOL) so don't get this wrong because it is directed at everyone who says pot relieves their pain, not soley you. but, I think it's totally insane to compare pot with Percodan. Holy cow. Talk about apples and oranges.

I suffer with pain 24/7. And, anxiety and and and... let's just talk pain for a moment.

I have been through a dozen surgeries since I turned 50. And a few before that. All minor shit (knee scopes, back decompressive laminectomy, etc) but, each one requiring a rehab period and a recovery period. All with Perc or some other oxy. And, I have been your typical drug abuser since 1968. I have a degenerative back. My spine looks like a jigsaw puzzle. I have bone spurs on my feet that make every step painful. I go to the gym almost every day and maintain a firm core and (as much as can be for an old drug abused worn out 65 year old) body as fit as possible. I'm not a lay-around.

I had my first back surgery back in 1990 and I still have pills left over from that. LOL After each surgery, I would get a script for 50 to 100 oxy to take me through recovery. I think this is pretty typical for whatever surgeries I had.

I would take them for the first few days. That recovery pain the first few days is fucking crazy. You can't do anything but pee and eat (and, it's painful to do even that). Anyone who has had surgery (which is most people, I believe) knows what I mean about those first few days of recovery.

Or, the other side of the coin is a trauma injury (which has also happened to me). I flipped a tractor over and fell about 10 feet onto my neck. It was a week or so before the MRI and surgery was scheduled so during that short time, the doctor gave me another giant bottle of oxy. I took about 10 to get me up to the day of surgery and the rest are sill in my cupboard.

Pile on top of all that, over 50 car wrecks. Totaled 4. Flipped 2. Heavy drinker and driver in my youth.

OK, there's my resume so I'm no virgin to pot or Opiates. And, I'm certainly no virgin to pain.

And, we have established 2 kinds of pain. My daily 24/7 pain. This is that burning, never ending, sometimes brutal pain. And the second kind... the absolute screaming injury and/or recovery pain. This is the kind of pain where you just sit and cry and beg someone to kill you.

OK, first the screaming pain.

2 or 3 percs will usually cut just about any pain I have ever had. And, I have had plenty. Toothache to major injury to that reoccurring back pain. Pop a few percs and that pain is gone.

Fortunately, it's been almost 2 years now since I have even had to take a perc or an oxy and I'm not looking forward to the next time I have to use them.

OK... now, to the point.

To think that pot is going to stop pain like that is nothing more than a joke to me. Impossible. Ain't gonna happen. Still, some people claim equal relief from pot and oxy. Bull shit, I say (albeit everyone is different and I am an open minded kind of guy)

OK, let's go to the everyday pain.

I had a gig last night and I played drums for 4 hours. Today, my back is screaming. Muscles are tightening around the lower and mid back and just squeezing the spine together causing pain and numbness in my arms and legs.

I have already smoked about 5 joints this morning with my coffee (which is pretty typical for me) and I don't believe my back hurts any less for it.

I could take a couple perc/oxy's and this pain would be gone gone gone. Even a couple aspirin would relieve more pain than the 5 joints have.

All the pot in the world isn't going to take this pain away. I ate a gram of rosin this week and, while I did get a little buzz, the pain relief effect was very very low.

Sorry for the rant and sorry (Gray Wolf) for making the rant in your thread. LOL But, I keep hearing about pot and pain relief and I just don't get it. Can I be different than the millions of people who are claiming to get pain relief from pot?

And, are these people who do get relief from pot willing to compare the relief they get from oxy and from pot and tell me that they compare in any way, shape or form? Like I said, I'm an open minded kind of guy but..... damn. LOL

I just don't get comparing oxy and cannabis. Apples and oranges.

OK, rant over. Sorry GW,

Perhaps they can develop a psyche test, to weed out those who shouldn't use opiates. I've had doctors shove mass opiates down my throat as well, couldn't stand em and they totally destroyed my amiable demeanor.

Literally flushed about $400 worth of morphine and dilauded down the toilet one day. Used extra cannabis the next couple weeks, to combat how awful I felt. Haven't looked back, no addiction draw at all. Nasty "medicine" for me.