Does a Male or Female Pass On More genetics to Their Offspring?

GoatCheese · Feb 20, 2018

browntrout said:
However if anyone has tried Cannacopia genetics (Clone only's crossed with a special Deep CHunk Male) then you might realize how true this statement really could be: "It has been my observation that in a successful cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of aroma and flavour to the prodigy." Having tried a few of the cannacopia xxx X Deep CHunk male crosses, the mother flavour is untouched but only boosted and enhanced in most progeny phenotypes.

This is not my experience with UK Cheese x DeepChunk.
There are some very poor phenos also in the line and some plants even show recessive phenos from UK Cheese, so not all Chunky Cheese plants have the real UK Cheese aroma.
I know this because i have grown UK Cheese S1s (Exodus from GHS) so i have seen some of those traits hiding in UK Cheese = Not stable ; some Exodus s1 plants are tall, some short; some have strong aroma, some don't and so on, and this is also shown in her offspring..
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From my experience what i have seen from growing F1 hybrids, it seems females and males, more or less, contribute the same amount, dominant varieties aside. Sure there are dominant lines as Deep Chunk is said to be, but the females and males should be as dominant in this case

So a reply to the actual question..
"Do females contribute more than males" i' d say no.

Sam Skunkman has also said, that it shouldn't matter if you use a male from certain line or a female, but because every plant is an individual, so there aren't truly identical males and females. But some are still very close to each other

So the way i see it, it's the traits of the individual that counts, not the sex of the individual.

Betterhaff · Feb 20, 2018

I can’t remember who made the comment, maybe Nevil or Sam, but it was said that so far (or as far as they know at this point) they believe there are no sex linked traits in cannabis.

igrowone · Feb 20, 2018

Betterhaff said:
I can’t remember who made the comment, maybe Nevil or Sam, but it was said that so far (or as far as they know at this point) they believe there are no sex linked traits in cannabis.

that's a pretty significant statement, definitely worth some thought
i wonder how the intersex trait, i.e. the dreaded hermie, is classified
kind of seems to me that it is a female linked trait
males can show intersex so that does discredit the idea
but they don't show it in quite the same way, males don't produce seeds by themselves, or very rarely(maybe)

GoatCheese · Feb 21, 2018

Betterhaff said:
I can’t remember who made the comment, maybe Nevil or Sam, but it was said that so far (or as far as they know at this point) they believe there are no sex linked traits in cannabis.

I think Nevil, more or less, said "likeness breeds likeness". So Nevil and Sam say about the same thing; that sex of the plant isn't so important

herbgreen · Feb 21, 2018

Seems to me the female has the most influence

skunk x haze has more thick buds heavier effect

haze x skunk has more airy buds up effect

Id say it leans toward the female but that's over simplified

There are only about a million ways to do this with about trillion combinations and a billion individual plants each with its very own unique characteristics

The focus is on the effects of the female and so that is what we try to preserve, enhance, and improve

Much work needs to be done on preservation and development with males equally if not more important

Prohibition of cannabis has made keeping the numbers needed to save and preserve male and female plant individuals for future breeding near impossible

These plants can live a long time!

Betterhaff · Feb 21, 2018

Breeding for males happens, it’s just not as deliberate, so far. As said, the female is the focus (production wise).The best test is the progeny test and unless you’re breeding for seed to sell not to many people keep a lot of males around.

The task will be much easier with mapping and DNA analysis coming around but you’ll still have to grow out the seeds.

Natural high · Feb 21, 2018

herbgreen said:
Seems to me the female has the most influence

skunk x haze has more thick buds heavier effect
haze x skunk has more airy buds up effect

The differences you are describing are only due to the fact that the two crosses use different individual maternal parents, chosen for their specific characteristics. Males and females contribute the same proportion of DNA and potentially have the same influence on the result. As we are all interested in the females, the males contribution to the female offspring is just harder to define and quantify.

VenturaHwy · Feb 21, 2018

White Fire is a famous cross. Fire Og female x (reversed female) The White. Would it be the same if the other way around? It would be a great test. Natural males are an unknown factor (crap shoot) since they don't grow buds.

oldbootz · Feb 21, 2018

One way to test this is to take 2 stable but non related varieties (A and B). Take 2 clones off one female plant from one variety (A) and 2 clones off of another female from the other variety (B). Take 1 clone from each variety and reverse them onto the other variety (A-reversed x B, B-reversed x A). This way we will find out of there is some natural process that is different when DNA is donated via pollen or in the calyx.

Sam_Skunkman · Feb 21, 2018

Not quite true, you can cross two female or cross two males by transforming one to the opposite sex, a transformed female clone to male will express pollen but it is still genetically a female, the same with males they can be transformed to female to make seeds.

Transforming males to a female will also allowing smoking of the male transformed to female expression or lab testing of the cannabinoids and terpenes they can contribute to progeny.

Regardless if the female is Haze or Skunk the f1 hybrids express the same general terpene and Cannabinoids, I have made hundreds and tested them.

There may be sex linked traits but this has not been proven in Cannabis.

Intersexed plants can be male or female. Males that are intersex can make seeds on themselves or on nearby plants.

One last point is plants do not just turn intersex because they have not been pollinated, they are born with the intersex traits, be they XY intersex or intersex traits that require stress of some sort to express the intersex. Both are inherited from intersex parents.

People confuse dominate and recessive genes with what a plant recieves from the parents, but do a prunett square with two palnts that have dominate and recessive genes for the same gene and you will see progeny have a crap shoot on what they receive. Depending on what the parents have Ww X Rr for example in the case of White and Red.

Plant genetics like Cannabis can be confusing as Cannabis is a dioecious obligate outcrosser and is a bit special. (90% of all flowering plants on earth have both sex, the remaining 10 percent have unisexual male and female flowers on the same plant (monoecious species) or male and female flowers on separate plants (dioecious species) they are the minority. Cannabis is one of the minority it is dioecious.
-SamS

Kankakee said:
The plant is constantly recording inputs from environment then over time these inputs become “ fixed “ within its hereditary construct over generations.

The environment will allow the very best possibility regarding what’s available in each seed if it’s perfect.

Sexual diversity is not needed BUT you can’t have advancement in evolution without it. You can’t cross two female plants of different lines together unless this is done with a male. This speaks volumes all in itself regarding importance.

The best plants always show themselves visually as selection trumps everything from one generation onto the next.

Just as a frosty looking plant may look good in a picture, but as we can tell and what has been proven time and again this frosty plant may not give you the same effects as a strain from s. America with no bag appeal..... so selecting towards this is foolhardy if judging a weak male in many other attributes except the camera loving frost.

The very best plants always stick out in front of your eyes for vigor and structure etc.... dominance. And making assumptions without the very best environment can cloud judgement as the plant may not be showing potential. It can adapt if inputs are lacking but this will take generations ....

* edit- you can also find camera ugly plants across the USA inside and outdoors that produce better effects than the frost covered sister plants within the same line . Did not wanna side track discussion by introducing natural habitat in s. America not producing same results when latitudes drastically change

Kankakee · Feb 21, 2018

I never said a male or female can’t be transformed but again that’s not happening in nature ...

Regarding chemical used for transformation. Or a large quantity of stress. And if someone’s breeding indoors this can pass on unwanted tendencies as the plant is recording these stress points every second of its life and will pass this onto the next generation of seed.

Plants will go hermaphroditism if they can’t find the same species of plant for natural reproduction this has been proven and you can’t cross two unrelated species without pollen at some point being introduced for another generation of seed, this plant is an annual plant , one and done. Cloning is not natural and over time the plant degradation is also been proven time and again, the plant starts breaking down on many levels. A plant is not advancing or building up resistance against pathogens without natural generational occurrence....

And making assumptions by growing plants indoor is not smart. Taking it out of its natural ecosystem and everything that entails.... and the stresses this causes as our time doing these indoor magic tricks upon said plant is a spec in time up against centuries of natural evolution, outdoors.

Kankakee · Feb 21, 2018

Every species on earth plant or animal is male dominated.

Hemp the precursor all in itself IS dioecious, always. And will revert towards this state once again in just a few generations if not “ manipulated “ by man.

The starting point should be a plant grown in its natural habitation that is generally stress free. Everything else is at that point in time is adding stress so the zero point for testing is lost as said ship of enlightenment is rudderless without said zero point as testing becomes void. And once stress is introduced into a line the next generation will show repercussions as it cascades in many directions as the plant starts changing. Can this be reversed ? Yes but only after the natural state is reintroduced and that following generation of seed comes forth ...

igrowone · Feb 21, 2018

Sam_Skunkman said:
Not quite true you can cross two female or cross two males by transforming one to the opposite sex, a transformed female clone to male will express pollen but it is still genetically a female, the same with males they can be transformed to female to make seeds.

...

i've never seen a pic/post of a male bearing seeds
which may not mean much, but would be damn interesting to see
anyone got pics of such? DJ claimed such males were 1 in a million

Natural high · Feb 21, 2018

VenturaHwy said:
White Fire is a famous cross. Fire Og female x (reversed female) The White. Would it be the same if the other way around? It would be a great test. Natural males are an unknown factor (crap shoot) since they don't grow buds.

oldbootz said:
One way to test this is to take 2 stable but non related varieties (A and B). Take 2 clones off one female plant from one variety (A) and 2 clones off of another female from the other variety (B). Take 1 clone from each variety and reverse them onto the other variety (A-reversed x B, B-reversed x A). This way we will find out of there is some natural process that is different when DNA is donated via pollen or in the calyx.

I've done the double reverse and there was no difference in the offspring phenotypes as expected. The one difference was that seed size from the cross was different due to the maternal parents having considerably different sized calyx.

Kankakee · Feb 21, 2018

The European Union was worried about the entire hemp complex in late 90’ s regarding bottleneck / degradation because of inbreeding and the manipulation that’s engulfed the entire industry away from pure male/ female lines.

The plant production drops 30% once these lines are grown in another ecosystem. A total disaster. Then one wonders why pathogens and disease ravaged a weakened line

Natural high · Feb 21, 2018

Kankakee said:
The European Union was worried about the entire hemp complex in late 90’ s regarding bottleneck / degradation because of inbreeding and the manipulation that’s engulfed the entire industry away from pure male/ female lines.

The plant production drops 30% once these lines are grown in another ecosystem. A total disaster. Then one wonders why pathogens and disease ravaged a weakened line

Inbreeding in horticulture (and agriculture) is extremely common and it is routinely used to create homogeneous ornamental varieties. Also, feminized breeding results in female offspring which differ in no way from regular females - they are exactly the same and their ability to breed with males is in no way impaired or inferior.

Betterhaff · Feb 21, 2018

Sam_Skunkman said:
Plant genetics like Cannabis can be confusing as Cannabis is a dieocious obligate outcrosser and is a bit special.-SamS

I don’t think enough people understand what the “obligate” part of this statement means. I take it as a necessity to outcross. This would be for fitness and survival in the wild.

Kankakee · Feb 21, 2018

Betterhaff said:
I don’t think enough people understand what the “obligate” part of this statement means. I take it as a necessity to outcross. This would be for fitness and survival in the wild.

And people should study hemp regarding dioecious natural state before making assumptions and trumpeting S1’s / hermaphroditism being natural

Natural high · Feb 21, 2018

Kankakee said:
And people should study hemp regarding dioecious natural state before making assumptions and trumpeting S1’s / hermaphroditism being natural

Hermaphroditism and Self pollination are extremely common in the plant world, being that the majority of the plant species are monoecious and can therefore self pollinate. Cannabis is typically dioecious, but there are naturally occurring endemic populations which are hermaphroditic, such as in south east Asia. It is very normal in those cases.

Kankakee · Feb 21, 2018

All hemp is dioecious. It will revert to this “ natural “ state even in the realm of European Frankensteinism after just a few generations

Hemp / sativa L is the very foundation of our stock today. I spoke about Thai and the reasons I think it’s hermaphroditism tendency’s in previous post. But that’s just a guess ....

People can twist up assertions but can’t deny natural state of hemp that’s been stated and litters all documentation from early hemp breeders many written in German by bredemann or bocsa

And I’m not disputing other species of plants having male and female tendencies or the fact Cannabis can revert but this is not a natural state.

Does a Male or Female Pass On More genetics to Their Offspring?

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