wanting to start, have 2.5 mill capital ...

MisterBlah · Jan 9, 2016

habeeb said:
-what is usual payback time, as in how long does each mill take to receive back in profit?

There isn't a "usual" per se. There's too much variation in construction cost and plant yield to give a reasonable average.

habeeb said:
-maybe there is a simple count of light per pricing, but looking to see what is usual cost per lamp for the building construction, from my view point the highest asset is the building laying out correctly

I've heard numbers ranging from $150-200/ sq ft for a indoor grow. 50-70% of that area canopy space.

habeeb said:
-whats you point of view for state that has the best place to set down roots?

Colorado has the "easiest" process. But the toughest market.

habeeb said:
-the competitors, what is the usual competitor? huge investors, or small guys trying to make it big time?

Both. The biggest competitors will be the huge investors though.

habeeb said:
-what is the usual layout of big investors, how many millions do they usual invest?

$10s of millions for a single facility.

habeeb said:
-has anyone looked into the future to see when flooding the market happens, and what will happen to all the businesses?

Most businesses can't handle the price halving, so it will be interesting to see what 2016 brings.

habeeb said:
-thoughts off the top of the head how many lights 2.5 million is gonna do? I was thinking 200 as the building is going to be the main costs with plumbing, electrical, HVAC, and such.. and when I say this not some cheap shit put together ram shackle, something that would be featured in forbes for " professional operation" sorta build,,

200 is actually a reasonable estimate, believe it or not.

RetroGrow · Jan 9, 2016

My question is why? Why do you want to jump from closet to mega-huge? You will be competing with other large operations that already have a head start and probably more funds. And you will be at the mercy of some government or other. I think the basic idea is flawed. Start with a single warehouse, and work it for a year or two, and grow/enlarge from there, figuring it out as you go along. Experience is the best teacher. Don't try to re-invent the wheel on a grand scale. Too many folks are already ahead of you. Consultants are a dime a dozen. Get your knowledge from actual operating experience.
My 2 cents...good luck.

MedResearcher · Jan 9, 2016

When Canada was bidding out their entire medical market, iirc the winning bid came in at like 12 or 15 bucks per ounce of indoor.

So eventually, I imagine in order to compete in the bulk market you will need to be able to compete with prices similar to that. Might take a while, but will probably get there.

Other precaution, the politics, local, state, and federal are still shifting extremely fast. I think being somewhat liquid, mobile and diverse is important. If you sink a huge investment into 1 area, then the local, state, or federals laws shift and shut you down. You might own one really fancy empty warehouse. A lot of guys that post here from Nor Cal, have brand new empty green houses sitting around because of local politics. Noticed even some of the more friendly counties in Oregon are starting to sway in that direction to.

Good luck,
Mr^^

habeeb · Jan 9, 2016

thanks guys for the info.. much appreciated..

to clear the air I'm not a closet grower for say.. I've run outdoor and have run multiple rooms.. I'm saying closet grower in comparison to a huge fat warehouse..

I'm also in the seed game, so I know all about dedication, hard work, growing, processes....

I laugh as some of you are throwing out comments not knowing how much I do know.. I have done self studies of nutrients for years, growing in multiple conditions, and all sorts of setups changing each grow as I like to expand my learning.. how many of you know what a par meter is? I own a li-cor, how many of you own a precision pH / EC meter? I own a 1k hach.... I'm gonna stop there because I sound arrogant but I'm not, I'm pretty laid back, but but I push myself everyday to learn, I just have never ran commercial as I was not willing to go to jail and deal with risky setups with partners involving huge amounts of money, and I took a different turn with seed company..

as stated, the plan is to run controllers, with that I could maintain a 500 light room faster then you can hand water a 4x4 tent.. see people don't understand as I know, as I've run around 300 plants to some points, scaling is very easy.. the hard part comes after harvest and cleanup, but scaling is super easy as mixing one gallon of water is essentially the same as mixing a hundred gallon drum as you still have to mix nutes... if your dropping 5ml or 500ml it's all the same as the measurement tool is just larger..

I've turned a whole house and it's backyard into a grow operation, so I know what I'm doing and that was by myself.. with automated controllers and a crew, it's very easily doable to me.. I just need expertise with site management and layout and laws and returns to know if to proceed forward

socioecologist · Jan 9, 2016

First things first, where are you trying to set up shop? No one can give you a good answer without a location first--every state's market is unique.

habeeb said:
how long does each mill take to receive back in profit?

"Profit" is something that will not be obtained by most people entering into this market (look at what's happening to producers in WA right now). When $3 million is competing with $40 million, the latter suppresses prices until the former is out of business--(1) because they can and (2) because oligopolic markets produce more profit for big firms. You'd be better off sinking that money into greenhouses and land leasing instead of indoor lighting systems and HVAC (but again, that's location dependent). Warehouse growing is a relic of the 20th century prohibition mentality and a sure way to lose money in the long run in places like Oregon or California; if you can't synergistically combine technology with nature's rhythm, you'll never be able to compete with glass house production.

MisterBlah · Jan 9, 2016

RetroGrow said:
My question is why? Why do you want to jump from closet to mega-huge? You will be competing with other large operations that already have a head start and probably more funds. And you will be at the mercy of some government or other. I think the basic idea is flawed. Start with a single warehouse, and work it for a year or two, and grow/enlarge from there, figuring it out as you go along. Experience is the best teacher. Don't try to re-invent the wheel on a grand scale. Too many folks are already ahead of you. Consultants are a dime a dozen. Get your knowledge from actual operating experience.
My 2 cents...good luck.

Why does anyone ever want to start their own business? Who cares who you are competing with?

MisterBlah · Jan 9, 2016

socioecologist said:
First things first, where are you trying to set up shop? No one can give you a good answer without a location first--every state's market is unique.

This is a very good point.

In Colorado, for example, where I live, if you want a license, you need to have been a resident for 24 months. If you haven't, you need to know someone who has that will work with you.

Pangea · Jan 9, 2016

Heard dude on Hash Church mention a 50 acre greenhouse almost done outside of Denver.

Regular produce farmers are growing crops under tens and hundreds of covered acres, cannabis will be too.
My plan is for $700K initial infrastructure costs to produce 2.5 tones in 90 days of summer sun with about $250K operating costs. I'd go bigger if I can round up the funds. Id rather only work 6 months out of the year on one crop as opposed to multicropping.

Daub Marley · Jan 9, 2016

I know your enamored with this consultant being able to solve your problems but in reality they are just taking your money. Ask them if they want to invest in your operation and see what they say. Also if they are giving horticulture advice ask if they have any sort of science or horticulture degree, because you are probably going to pay them top dollar right? I bet whatever advice they give they have no official education in that field. Without that degree its the blind leading the blind.
Basically what I hear is "I have 2.5 million dollars of investor money to burn and have no plan. Can you help?" Weird gave some great advice, but he kind of hinted to read between the lines "buy the warehouse" i.e reduce risk
Someone comes to these forums about every 2-3 months with the same exact plan and we sort of shit on their dreams by showing the reality (which never goes well because they don't want to hear what you have to say). Good luck! I'm tired of being that guy. If you believe in yourself and investors do too then best of luck.

MisterBlah · Jan 9, 2016

Pangea said:
Heard dude on Hash Church mention a 50 acre greenhouse almost done outside of Denver.

Regular produce farmers are growing crops under tens and hundreds of covered acres, cannabis will be too.
My plan is for $700K initial infrastructure costs to produce 2.5 tones in 90 days of summer sun with about $250K operating costs. I'd go bigger if I can round up the funds. Id rather only work 6 months out of the year on one crop as opposed to multicropping.

Ya know, I've made suggestions to people who have only ever grown indoors to do it in a greenhouse and to do a single crop per year. They think I'm nuts for even considering it.

mojave green · Jan 9, 2016

if I had 2.5 mil, I would build automated light dep greenhouses that had electricity supplied by solar panels/ wind turbines. Simple, self sustaining. Tough to beat.

MisterBlah · Jan 9, 2016

habeeb said:
thanks guys for the info.. much appreciated..

to clear the air I'm not a closet grower for say.. I've run outdoor and have run multiple rooms.. I'm saying closet grower in comparison to a huge fat warehouse..

I'm also in the seed game, so I know all about dedication, hard work, growing, processes....

I laugh as some of you are throwing out comments not knowing how much I do know.. I have done self studies of nutrients for years, growing in multiple conditions, and all sorts of setups changing each grow as I like to expand my learning.. how many of you know what a par meter is? I own a li-cor, how many of you own a precision pH / EC meter? I own a 1k hach.... I'm gonna stop there because I sound arrogant but I'm not, I'm pretty laid back, but but I push myself everyday to learn, I just have never ran commercial as I was not willing to go to jail and deal with risky setups with partners involving huge amounts of money, and I took a different turn with seed company..

as stated, the plan is to run controllers, with that I could maintain a 500 light room faster then you can hand water a 4x4 tent.. see people don't understand as I know, as I've run around 300 plants to some points, scaling is very easy.. the hard part comes after harvest and cleanup, but scaling is super easy as mixing one gallon of water is essentially the same as mixing a hundred gallon drum as you still have to mix nutes... if your dropping 5ml or 500ml it's all the same as the measurement tool is just larger..

I've turned a whole house and it's backyard into a grow operation, so I know what I'm doing and that was by myself.. with automated controllers and a crew, it's very easily doable to me.. I just need expertise with site management and layout and laws and returns to know if to proceed forward

From the sounds of things, you would make a decent lead grower. But the lead grower is not the guy that runs the business. At least, not that I've seen. I know a lot of good growers that want to start a business, but I know many don't know how to get started.

It also sounds like you're here to learn to start the business. So...

My question is, do you want to grow? Or do you want to run a business?

MisterBlah · Jan 9, 2016

mojave green said:
if I had 2.5 mil, I would build automated light dep greenhouses that had electricity supplied by solar panels/ wind turbines. Simple, self sustaining. Tough to beat.

The problem with that is that you usually need heat at night and storing the electricity needed to provide electric heat throughout the night is cost prohibitive.

On the other hand, being grid connected and putting up some solar panels or small wind turbines, that can go over very well. Using natural gas as a heat source? Extra CO2!

Bwanabud · Jan 9, 2016

Daub Marley said:
I know your enamored with this consultant being able to solve your problems but in reality they are just taking your money. Ask them if they want to invest in your operation and see what they say. Also if they are giving horticulture advice ask if they have any sort of science or horticulture degree, because you are probably going to pay them top dollar right? I bet whatever advice they give they have no official education in that field. Without that degree its the blind leading the blind.
Basically what I hear is "I have 2.5 million dollars of investor money to burn and have no plan. Can you help?" Weird gave some great advice, but he kind of hinted to read between the lines "buy the warehouse" i.e reduce risk
Someone comes to these forums about every 2-3 months with the same exact plan and we sort of shit on their dreams by showing the reality (which never goes well because they don't want to hear what you have to say). Good luck! I'm tired of being that guy. If you believe in yourself and investors do too then best of luck.

Spot on, and sound advice

My father-in-law a VERY successful businessman told me once

"never take business advice from your accountant, they just play with other peoples money...if they knew how to run a business they'd be rich, and I've never met a wealthy CPA"

stasis · Jan 9, 2016

Call Me negative, but I have answered about 9000000 of these questions for people. After a while I said 'no more,' until I see the cash. Too many of them felt entitled to free information from experts. Why..? Not sure. I can;t ask other professionals to explain the details of how they made things work. Not for free, at least.

It is called consulting. And, in this biz where 20% maybe end up actually using the info to DO something - the info is not - nor should it be - free of charge.

Then, many potential suitors of the plant have unrealistic expectations of the money tree.

OR, as soon as a first harvest is realized, all of a sudden the key doesn't fit the door. Who ya gonna call....? Ghostbusters..?

Pay up front, or only cursory info will you get.

Bottom line, all the info of yield (the most important thing, and first thing out of a suitor;s mouth) - is all available with a little research..

Would YOU invest whatever K without FIRST HAND INFO>..? Youch. I doubt I would.

Listen to the Poseur who yells the loudest about getting 1+ p per plant indoors in 50 days 12/12...?

And FINALLY, I cannot say just how many times people have had grand dreams that they want help with - with Other Peoples' Money. 90% never hear from em again.

Cheers, Carry on.
We certainly paid to learn it, through mistakes or whatever.

Not being a DB, but last I looked, Lawyers charged for their counsel. You want good info, with real personal commitment - be prepared to pay (handsomely) for it. And that is How it should be. It was not the Yellow Brick Road, learning this craft. Arcane at the least.

It is not just following a feed chart. There are nuances upon nuances. Strain Knowledge under certain conditions. Different methods and Nutrient regimens, organic vs conventional. Low Numbers High Yield, High Numbers SOG style. Hundreds of hats to wear. Experience is the only teacher. This is Common Knowledge amongst those who grow and are committed to the passion.

Bwanabud · Jan 9, 2016

stasis said:
Call Me negative, but I have answered about 9000000 of these questions for people. After a while I said 'no more,' until I see the cash. Too many of them felt entitled to free information from experts. Why..? Not sure. I can;t ask other professionals to explain the details of how they made things work. Not for free, at least.

It is called consulting. And, in this biz where 20% maybe end up actually using the info to DO something - the info is not - nor should it be - free of charge.

Then, many potential suitors of the plant have unrealistic expectations of the money tree.

OR, as soon as a first harvest is realized, all of a sudden the key doesn't fit the door. Who ya gonna call....? Ghostbusters..?

Pay up front, or only cursory info will you get.

Bottom line, all the info of yield (the most important thing, and first thing out of a suitor;s mouth) - is all available with a little research..

Would YOU invest whatever K without FIRST HAND INFO>..? Youch. I doubt I would.

Listen to the Poseur who yells the loudest about getting 1+ p per plant indoors in 50 days 12/12...?

And FINALLY, I cannot say just how many times people have had grand dreams that they want help with - with Other Peoples' Money. 90% never hear from em again.

Cheers, Carry on.
We certainly paid to learn it, through mistakes or whatever.

Not being a DB, but last I looked, Lawyers charged for their counsel. You want good info, with real personal commitment - be prepared to pay (handsomely) for it. And that is How it should be. It was not the Yellow Brick Road, learning this craft. Common Knowledge.

Yep no doubt, the reality as my first post said,,,it's business first, growing second, control third.

A strong business background is needed for any successful business, add growing to the deal and it's a challenging venture. The market will be saturated this year, and more coming from Mom/Pop operations...everyone is looking for a fast buck, the fast lane to wealth...and a lot of people are going to lose a TON of money. A large investment only guarantees one thing, a larger risk with more investors standing with their hands out looking for return dividends.

Tonygreen · Jan 9, 2016

without control nothing else matters...

Handling a wharehouse of lights is not gonna happen with forum posts. I think you need the experience yourself.

Shit dont scale linear movin up, shitloads of issues just movin up from 1 light to 2 to four to even running 10, then were talkin about a giant space with hundreds of lights?

blueberrydrumz · Jan 9, 2016

a lot has been said here, but little have you said what your exact role is supposed to look like in this plan?
thats the most important thing, know your strengths and know what to leave others, professionals to do.
I doubt you want to be lead grower, facility manger and sales executive at the same time?!
way too much work.. yeah you need a team like you said.. that will be hard enough...
90% of the time a consultant will be bias and like mentioned will only take your money, unless they are a friend or somebody from your circle who you can pay to help..
but from your capital i would take at least a quater and keep that running costs and backup for the first 6 months,
would be a big no no having everything up and running and after 2 months not beeing able to pay for running costs.. electricity and water..
and in those dimensions bills add up quickly!!
:tiphat:

blueberrydrumz · Jan 10, 2016

double

JohnKimble · Jan 10, 2016

You should watch this channel on youtube called medicropper, it shows how this man goes from a small grower using his basement to grow for med patients in washington to owning his own facility. Also it shows how he makes his facility and the problems he had working at it alone, and now I guess in his recent videos he has 2 employees now.

wanting to start, have 2.5 mill capital ...

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