Chelates

glow said:

Sorry mate I don't know anything about aurora soul synthetics so no idea on that front.

Amino acids I suspect have a big future in hydroponics in general. The key difference between amino acid chelates and synthetic chelates is that the plant has an amino acid cycle. So, for instance, nitrate nitrogen is taken by the roots and then undergoes a complex series of events... That is, when nitrate nitrogen (NO3–N) is provided to plants it first needs to be uptaken and translocated from the roots of the plant through the xylem. It is then absorbed by a mesophyll cell via one of the nitrate−proton symporters into the cytoplasm and reduced to nitrite (NO2) by nitrate reductase enzyme in the cytoplasm. From here the nitrite is reduced to ammonium (NH4) by nitrite reductase enzyme in the chloroplast, which is then incorporated into amino acids by the glutamine synthetase−glutamine− 2−oxoglutarate amidotransferase enzyme system, resulting in glutamine and, ultimately, other amino acids and their metabolites. The nitrate reductase enzyme activity is the limiting step of NO3 N conversion to amino acid synthesis (Campbell, 1999). In most plant species only a proportion of the absorbed nitrate is assimilated in the root, the remainder being transported upwards through the xylem for assimilation in the shoot where it is reduced and incorporated into amino acids (Forde, 2000).

Even though plants have the inherent capacity to biosynthesize all of the amino acids that they require from nitrogen, carbon oxygen and hydrogen, the biochemical process is quite complex and energy consuming. Put simply, where amino acids and proteins are concerned, 20 amino acids must be synthesized by the plant in order for protein synthesis to occur. However, a challenge lies in the fact that proteins have a finite life span and must be constantly translated from m-RNA (which carries genetic information from DNA) in order for plant growth and development to continue. This means that there must be a ready supply of all 20 amino acids for protein synthesis and ultimately plant growth and development to occur. Therefore, the exogenous application of amino acids through addition to the nutrient, or applied via foliar spray, can aid the plant to save energy on this process. This energy can then be dedicated to better plant development during critical stages of growth.

To understand this energy saving process, nitrogen (N) containing amino acids such as glycine (C2H5NO2), alanine (CH₃CHCOOH), arginine (C6H14N4O2), tryptophan (C11H12N2O2), proline (C5H9NO2), histidine (C6H9N3O2) and lysine (C6H14N2O2) are shown to be uptaken and assimilated by some plants in large quantities. Some studies have indicated that where inorganic forms of nitrogen (e.g. nitrate nitrogen - NO3) and amino acids are present in soils and solutions plants uptake more N through amino acids than through inorganic sources of nitrogen. As a result, while the research is variable, some authors have suggested that plants possibly prefer organic amino acids as a source of nitrogen above inorganic forms of nitrogen.

So basically, amino acid chelates are able to directly enter the plant with the metal ion and transport it (put simply). As AZclones has rightfully pointed out research has now shown that the synthetic chelates are able to be uptaken and translocated by the plant - although there is some uncertainty as to what percentage of the synthetic chelates are uptaken. This said they do not transport the metal ion in the way amino acids do. BTW - EDTA etc is quite toxic so the fact that it is being uptaken isn't a good thing.

Re fulvic acid - yes I have used it for years in solution although that one is complex in that I grow in organic media (coco) and use bios (trichoderma and bacillus spp). Fulvic not only chelates and complexes but also provides a source of carbon for the bios (carbon is a key bio food so this provides a food source to the bennies which in turn ensures a high biomass). Certainly though a bit of extra chelation and complexing in solution can never hurt and can only aid nutrient availability particularly where conditions are less than optimal. So for example phosphorus has a pretty narrow optimal pH zone so by complexing it you improve the nutrient status. Hope that explains things a bit more for you...

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bigalthegrower said:

I use an amino acid product called AminoActin. You can purchase it from American Hydroponics in Arcata, California. You can also buy it from hydro-stores under the name Dark Energy. It smells a lot like soy sauce. I also notice that it moves the pH of my reservoir up substantially, and I end up adding a lot of phosphoric acid. Does anybody else have pH troubles when using amino acids.

Here is a link, if anybody wants to check out the product:
http://store.americanhydroponics.com/AminoActin-Chelating-Agent-p/88080.htm

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glow said:

Organic components can cause pH swings for various reasons but much of which (typically) is related to microorganisms they can promote. Are you using bennies or a sterilizing agent in solution? I would be more inclined to formulate myself using straight aminos such as glycine or be very specific how an organic based product is best used in solution.

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bigalthegrower said:

I am using bacillus subtillus. I use Companion from Growth Products.
http://www.growthproducts.com/pages/international.asp?tables=featured&product=204
I was leaning towards using a different amino acid product. But after reading your post about how some plants can uptake a broad range of amino acids, I am feeling more confident that AminoActin from American Hydroponics is the correct choice. I just wish the pH of the reservoir did not shift towards alkaline; it does settle down after a few days, however.

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EclipseFour20 said:

If you can find it, Growmore's Mendocino Fuego is good for root/foliar feeding of micronutes chelated by organic citric acid; according to the formulator it contains amino acids as well.

It is one of their newer products, so you have to ask for it.

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milkyjoe said:

...
My question remains...how does it inhibit that enzyme pathway. Proving it is not a chelation thing should be simple for a man of your qualifications.
...

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Avenger said:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...D_CROP_NUTRIENT_INTERACTIONS_-_CURRENT_UPDATE

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Only Ornamental said:

Certainly, the chelating effect of glyphosat is well known (that's not a new finding) but it's not why or how it kills weeds, it's why and how it kills mother nature.

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