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Chelates
- Thread starter theother
- Start date
Plants need phosphorus. They also need iron. When you mix the two, they form iron phosphate which is all but insoluble and largely unavailable to plants.
When combined with a chelating agent- EDTA, EDDHA, or even relatively simple moities like citrate- iron remains soluble, and yet does not form insoluble iron phosphate. This facilitates nutrient uptake through the roots.
Other elements may be supplied as chelates, but iron is the most critical of these. Different chelates have better solubility depending upon pH.
Admittedly, we're only worried about a very small range relative to that chart, but you get the idea.
A deficiency of other micronutrients is less likely to occur due to precipitation; it is possible to use the correct salts to optimize solubility of elements like manganese, molybdenum, and so forth. In that context, it is largely sufficiency (just adding enough of the element in a soluble form), rather than chelation, that makes the difference. There are exceptions, but none that are likely within the hydroponic environment leap to mind.
When combined with a chelating agent- EDTA, EDDHA, or even relatively simple moities like citrate- iron remains soluble, and yet does not form insoluble iron phosphate. This facilitates nutrient uptake through the roots.
Other elements may be supplied as chelates, but iron is the most critical of these. Different chelates have better solubility depending upon pH.
A deficiency of other micronutrients is less likely to occur due to precipitation; it is possible to use the correct salts to optimize solubility of elements like manganese, molybdenum, and so forth. In that context, it is largely sufficiency (just adding enough of the element in a soluble form), rather than chelation, that makes the difference. There are exceptions, but none that are likely within the hydroponic environment leap to mind.
Interesting! SO keeping the iron and the phos from binding each other out is the primary role of chelates that relate to us? Does EDTA do a good job of preventing this? Assuming the manufacturer has done there work does it make sense to boost cal mag during a clear water vs in solution with the rest of the nutes? (Obviously talking soil/soilless not hydro)
What makes a high quality salt then? I sort of assumed it was some chelate magic, but is it really the quality of the starting material they are refined from?
EDTA is used almost universally because it's inexpensive and it works.
What makes a "high quality" nutrient preparation? It's not that tough. Let's cover some basics, and I fully expect some statements to be contentious but defendable.
1) Inorganic nitrogen. Woah, woah, woah- OK, everyone who thinks organic is the end-all? Yes, I know where you're coming from. But did you know that you can pull ammonium AND nitrate out of soil? It's possible. And if you were to do that and evaporate enough water from that solution, you'd end up with solid ammonium nitrate. You'd also end up with other salts. But ammonium nitrate in itself isn't bad; in fact, it's a great way to deliver both ammonium nitrogen and nitrate nitrogen to your plants.
Now, the option to inorganic nitrogen (from commercial sources) is most frequently urea- which, as the name implies, comes from urine. Nothing wrong with the source, I'm just sayin'. Some manufacturers have used urea (garnered from cattle feedlot waste, if I understand correctly), and it grows plants just fine. Has to undergo transformation by microbes at the soil level, but it's a decent source of nitrogen- but not as good as ammonium nitrate.
2) Complete nutrition. OK- you get your carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen from air and water. Then there's NPK, and we could argue about ratios all day, so I'll skip that. Then there's calcium and magnesium- again, you can debate concentrations and sources all day, but just to give an example: cheap nutrients might get calcium from calcium chloride; the plants use the calcium, but the chloride- not so much. All that does is make your hydro solution "saltier," and the plants have to work against the osmotic strength of the nutrient bath (whether supplied in DWC or soil) to get the nutrients they need. Calcium nitriate, on the other hand, provides calcium AND nitrate nitrogen- both of which the plants can used. Then there are the micros, including iron. The iron is ideally chelated, preferably as Fe-EDTA or Fe-EDDHA. Chelation of other micronutrients is optional. Addition of super-trace elements- everything "under" molybdenum- like nickel and vanadium is possibly beneficial, but in all likelihood these elements are present at the levels required for sufficiency as contaminants in other elements.
3) Heavy metals. Regulatory bodies have reduced this risk, and even then- unless you're consuming substantial quantities of food generated with these nutrients, the risk is low. Back to #2 for a moment: if you have sufficiently sensitive instruments, you can find just about anything. It is possible to tell, for example, whether bottled wine predates the nuclear age by the presence/absence of plutonium. We don't stop drinking wine because of the potential risk due to plutonium because of this- the levels of detection are much lower than any known risk from ambient levels of all-contaminating plutonium, present due to air-burst testing since 1945. As Paracelsus would have it, "The dose makes the poison." 10 ppm of mercury is clearly a problem; 10 parts per billion, however, is not.
4) Bagged and stored correctly. Some nutes are hygroscopic; they collect moisture from the atmosphere, and get all sloppy. They can be formulated to reduce this.
So, in one sense, yes- it's the starting materials. But it's also the proportions of the various components.
Yes.
Hey mate sorry for not getting back to your pm - have a read here re chelates http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-grow-guide/beneficial-additives-in-hydroponics.html
After silicon under heading of additional chelators in solution.
It explains the diff between chelation and complexing and organic versus synthetic chelates etc and should give you a good overview and understanding of the basics. Most, if not all good hydroponic nutrients use chelates and definitely chelated iron (Fe) is a must in any hydroponic solution.
bigalthegrower
New member
I just finished reading this page. It is very well written. Your website is extremely informative and very fun for a hydro nerd like me to read.
Are you still planning on opening up the e-Shop on your website? I would like to try some of your fertilizer formulas.
Not in the way we originally envisaged Big Al. We want to up the game and 1) turn it into an online mag by growers for growers (no bloody advertizing
and 2) bring together agricultural specialists and researchers and provide formulas to growers. We'll distribute some of the harder to access biochems but will form partnerships with others to supply base fertilizers. I've been very busy in the last couple of years sorting out a human rights issue and handling a huge consultancy contract. It gave me time to think about how I could do the righty by the community that has given me so much.Well that is a fantastic read!! Definitely have a lot of questions but wanted to ask this one before I forgot.
So glycinates sound appealing, am I reading correctly, because the plant thinks it's a protein anything bonded to a glycinates become mobile? Am I missing the fact that elements that are not mobile in the plant can't be chelated by glycinates? Seems this alone, as long as not leaving the chemical chelate n the media is very appealing.
Glow in your opinion is a line like aurora soul synthetics worth a look?
Also one more observation/question/clarification. Seems that fulvic is something that should be in every feed. If I am reading it right, the only way for elements with negative anions to osmote is bonded to fulvic? Are there a lot of negative anions in solution normally?
I'd like to chime in with a little chemistry. Iron and trace elements carry a positive charge. You can think of chelates as molecules with at least two 'arms' with an affinity for positive charges. Chelates like to embrace positive ions with their arms so to speak, and the resulting complexes are more soluble and hence more mobile in soil.
Fulvic acid is a mixture of what you might call the mothers of all chelates: molecules with lots of arms. That's why they make trace elements more mobile. I doubt you need it every feed though.
Fulvic acid is a mixture of what you might call the mothers of all chelates: molecules with lots of arms. That's why they make trace elements more mobile. I doubt you need it every feed though.
Round up would be another example of a synthetic chelate no? Antibiotics would be another...sucking micronutrients out of bacteria...and you also. Hopefully killing the bacteria before killing you...but definitely also murdering good bacteria.
That path is always gonna be a fine line between it works and shit, did not see that coming.
That path is always gonna be a fine line between it works and shit, did not see that coming.
Many chelating agents are metabolized and used by the plant. Usually they are a source of N.
P: no, K might be, but K salts are generally soluble enough on their own.
Round up is a systemic herbicide, do you mean it's like a chelate because it's available to the plant as a foliar? Unless I'm missing something I think you missed the mark a bit.
