Terpin production according to nutrients

stihgnobevoli · Mar 24, 2015

Only Ornamental said:
Stiggy, that's one of the most moronic and unproductive posts I've ever seen from you.
First, share your thoughts; telling people you know something but then not telling it because you are what ashamed? makes you look way more stupid than having funny ideas.
Second, making people listen isn't about why but how you communicate.
And third, what do ugly (or beautiful) plants have to do with it? Having a green thumb is just that. Having an eye for details or the wits to understand them are something entirely different. At least half the scientific understanding on plant physiology comes from growing, breeding and especially inbreeding sick, crippled, abnormal, and mutant plants.

the uglier plants are the best because they put their "all" into making it to the end. so basically always feeding plants all this doo dads and gee wizbangs keeping them nice and dark green. you're actually missing out on the great highs and smells that come from stressing the plant.

i'm not saying you have to stress the plants but "fat lazy plants aren't as good at fighting as lean plants that have been training".

less is more.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 24, 2015

After growing the same clones for 25 years I can assure you that the biggest healthiest most vigorous plants grown in healthy soil (I prefer organic) with big roots with lots of fine root hairs and mycorrhiza are what gives me the best results, stressing is not the way for yield or quality.....
That said I do find the very best quality comes from soil that runs out of N just at the end of flowering, and the plants leaves yellow out a bit. I do not like plants grown in high N to harvest, they are darker green and taste bad to me. They do yield more weight.
-SamS

stihgnobevoli said:
the uglier plants are the best because they put their "all" into making it to the end. so basically always feeding plants all this doo dads and gee wizbangs keeping them nice and dark green. you're actually missing out on the great highs and smells that come from stressing the plant.

i'm not saying you have to stress the plants but "fat lazy plants aren't as good at fighting as lean plants that have been training".

less is more.

Bubbleblower · Mar 24, 2015

Sam_Skunkman said:
After growing the same clones for 25 years I can assure you that the biggest healthiest most vigorous plants grown in healthy soil

You can learn a lot from always growing the same clones.

Around 2000 all my friends and I were when something weird happened.

Suddenly their weed turned couchlock while mine didn't.

Exact same cuttings and growing techniques.

The main difference between them and me was they adopted these miracle grow boosters early, while I preferred organic.

No doubt the boosters worked great, you get these big sugary buds, which was new.

Between 2000 and 2004 average THC levels in Nederwiet just as sudden increased from a steady 8.6% previously to 20.4%.

That increase was entirely caused by these boosters and nothing else.

N. Accumbens · Mar 24, 2015

Question, are we using the term terpenoid and terpene interchangeably? I believe there was a thread on this but was wondering what the rule of the day was for this site.

Nacc

Only Ornamental · Mar 24, 2015

A terpene is solely built out of isoprene units and eventually bears oxygen-derived functional groups (usually only alcohols, ketones, aldehydes, seldom a methoxy group), may be esterified (usually acetate), or having underwent a simple rearrangement (methyl group transfer) of cleavage (ring opening, demethylation). A terpenoid is an even larger term and also encompasses other modifications, substitutions, and rearrangements or compounds only partially built from isoprene (sometimes, terpenoid only refers to such 'non-pure' terpenes). One may even be inclined to call cannabinoids terpenoids as they contain a part terpene and a part polyketide which shares its early steps with terpene biosynthesis. As the polyketide part is larger, a cannabinoid IMO is a prenylated polyketide.
Here, people use the term terpene exclusively for mono- and sesquiterpenes which are the volatile 'branch' of the huge terpene family.

HL45 · Mar 25, 2015

acridlab said:
I don't have any science to back it up,, but I have grown my house strain with at least 8 different nute lines,, and I have gotten 8 different flavors..so I would say,, yes,, dif nutes can change things..

Ill see ya and raise ya with;

I grew the same clones
from the same mother plant
from the same cloner
at the same exact time
in the same media
with the same room dimensions 10'x10'
with the same lighting
receiving the same exact feed from the same res

the only difference was one room got 10 degrees cooler at night.

The strain was 3Kings and in the colder room it grew smaller and looked and smelled more Kushy, in the warmer room it grew larger and smelled more sour D ish.

the warmer side yielded +20% more and took a bit over a week longer to finish.

I wish I had them tested to compare thc content.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 25, 2015

I did analyze the Cannabinoids and terpenes, that is why I suggested the environment could change the profile of the terps but not make new terps or Cannabinoids pop up.
So at all the other times it was exactly the same temperature?? What was the temps day and night?
-SamS

EclipseFour20 · Mar 25, 2015

In researching information on essential oils (non cannabis related) I stumbled on this "figure" that summarizes essential oils emitted under certain variable conditions.

This figure illustrates quite nicely why we should not view terpene production/emission in a vacuum or as a result of a single "cause and effect" (I do ________ and terpenes will increase), rather terpene production/emission it is a symphony of many independent actions/things.

Text that accompanies the above figure:
"Network representation of the compound data in EssOilDB. The view summarizes essential oils emitted under some of the variable conditions depicted in Figure 3, each condition being depicted in distinct colors. Edges are colored by the specific variable condition being studied. Peripheral nodes represent compounds while hub nodes represent a specific feature of the data, as annotated. Nodes towards the periphery of the network are unique to a given condition, whereas as one moves from the periphery to the center, nodes represent compounds that are common to an increasing number of conditions. For example, the inset shows the nodes (compounds) that are common to two distinct features, namely, geographical location variations (yellow) and population based variations (orange). Note that a large number of compounds synthesized under stress (red edges) are unique, whereas compounds that are released based on developmental stage variations or seasonal variations are common to a majority of the conditions analyzed."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4273207/

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 25, 2015

Well this is a bit different then a single clone, a single clone might be effected by some but not all of the factors. This is really comparing multi-populations of many plants in each population.
I am still waiting to be shown that the profile can express new different terpenes or Cannabinoids just from non genetic factors, I know they can modify the profile by increasing and or decreasing terpenes and Cannabinoids, I have seen it numerous times, confirmed by GC analysis. I have not yet seen new compounds synthesized under stress, at least not terpenes or Cannabinoids.
Not so sure this is true for Cannabis that unique compounds are synthesized under stress.
Don't they need the genes for any specific Cannabinoid or terpene to produce them?
-SamS

genedigger · Mar 25, 2015

it seems to me that my bud changes flavor time to time or maybe some batches are just more stinky/smelly.i attribute this to being 100% organic.i change from honey to mollasas an sometimes maple syrup which is happening now since the trees are running.nothing like being stoned and tapping maple trees.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 25, 2015

Sam_Skunkman said:
... I have not yet seen new compounds synthesized under stress, at least not terpenes or Cannabinoids.
Not so sure this is true for Cannabis that unique compounds are synthesized under stress.
Don't they need the genes for any specific Cannabinoid or terpene to produce them?
-SamS

Sam, when using the term "new compounds", do you mean a "new" terpene/compound that originally was not part of a particular clone's genome and now it is? ("potential")....or do you mean a "new" terpene/compound that was not previously detected (dormant) and now is part of that particular clone's terpene profile ("actual")?

The above study found there is a difference between a plant's "actual" (recorded) and "potential" (genetic makeup) terpene emissions, that a number of biosynthetic genes may also lie dormant under natural conditions (not detected)....and then we have the contrasting trend of "chickpea"--which emits more "actual" terpenes than it's genetic makeup ("potential").

"....in the case of Eucalyptus, the emission of only 21 monoterpenes have been recorded in literature, whereas the genome of this plant contains genes that code for more than double this number of monoterpene synthases." (51 actually...which means 30 are dormant?). This is the case with many other plants analysed in this effort, and it may be explained by limitations of record compilations or the unavailability of data under stress for the plant, since these are secondary metabolites induced for specific functions and a large number of biosynthetic genes may lie dormant under natural conditions. Interestingly, a few plants like the legume crop chickpea (Cicer arietinum) show a contrasting trend, wherein more terpene emissions have been recorded in literature than the predicted genomic potential (Marked in bold font in Table 1). This means that the number of TPS gene models in the plant genome is less than the total number of terpenes released by that plant, reflecting in turn, the unique ability of TPS enzymes to synthesize multiple products from a single substrate. A single predicted TPS gene product can thus generate many terpene compounds rather than only one, and this ability to create complex odor profiles from a minimal gene set can lead to an expansion of the terpene potential of the respective genome."

Lots of things going on---

Bubbleblower · Mar 25, 2015

You only get certain expressions if it is in the genes.
I tried turning an indica into a sativa -limonene pinene chemotype- and that doesn't work or had no noticable effect.

Still I believe though new cannabinoïds, terpenes and other substances are developed non stop as part of what I see as an arms race between plants/animals and pests/diseases.
To develop them should be "easy" by introducing the plants to unknown stress.
We'd only need very little of it, in one experiment it took less than 2 hours to completely change the chemistry.
It seems some plants/animals are good at developing terpenes, while others like cannabis are masters of copying them.

EclipseFour20 said:
This is the case with many other plants analysed in this effort, and it may be explained by limitations of record compilations or the unavailability of data under stress for the plant, since these are secondary metabolites induced for specific functions and a large number of biosynthetic genes may lie dormant under natural conditions.

These dormant genes must be very important.
That great Thai we had was from 1982, in 83 it might have been crap so to speak.
Terroir is as important as it is with wine.
That's why you can grow the very best weed at 53N (!!!!), but only if you live in the polder.

genedigger · Mar 25, 2015

ive found many times growing outdoors it takes on the essence of nearby plants trees.pine trees is what comes to mind.when i plant nearby pines outdoors i always get a more piney result regardless of strain. those pine trees do something to the soil near them cause the plants planted near them are always smaller but still good. anybody else have this happen.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 25, 2015

I bet if someone composed a list of "factors affecting cannabis terpene emissions" the number would be over 1000.

We all agree on this simple notion: Nutrition (or the absence of them) affects the health of a plant, which in turn affects it's ability to produce and emit terpenes. So which element/mineral are required?

There are about 90 or so naturally occurring elements/minerals found on earth and most "bottled nutrients" include a fraction of them (16-21 or so)....one has to wonder which terpenes "lie dormant" for those that limit their plant's nutrition to just 16-21?

So under the "nutrition variables" in our list of "factors that affect cannabis terpene emission" we start with at least 90 variables. Simply stated: How much bling (gold/titanium/silver) is in your plant's nutrition? Environment same story--I can think of about 20 environmental variables (nighttime/daytime air/soil temperature, humidity, light intensity, gas levels (nitrogen, CO2, oxygen, etc), air flow, etc.)

Terroir in the wine world...includes things like: climate, soil, vine (rootstock and cultivar), and human factors including cultivator practices. That said, it seems the best vintages for wines occurred in years which there was a water deficit from flowering to harvest (climate). Types of soil and vine had very little correlation...which makes sense, because if they did then every year would be a stellar year for a given geographic location. Ahhh another example of how certain abiotic stress (particularly water stress) can be your friend.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 26, 2015

x

EclipseFour20 said:
Sam, when using the term "new compounds", do you mean a "new" terpene/compound that originally was not part of a particular clone's genome and now it is?

YES

("potential")....or do you mean a "new" terpene/compound that was not previously detected (dormant) and now is part of that particular clone's terpene profile ("actual")?

How could anyone tell the difference? No one has the ability to know all the dormant genes in a Cannabis plant unless you can make them un-dormant, active.

The above study found there is a difference between a plant's "actual" (recorded) and "potential" (genetic makeup) terpene emissions, that a number of biosynthetic genes may also lie dormant under natural conditions (not detected)

If you can't activate the genes for potential new terpenes or Cannabinoids are they relevant?

Please list one example found in Cannabis that illustrates your proposal?

....and then we have the contrasting trend of "chickpea"--which emits more "actual" terpenes than it's genetic makeup ("potential").

So what does that mean? To you?

"....in the case of Eucalyptus, the emission of only 21 monoterpenes have been recorded in literature, whereas the genome of this plant contains genes that code for more than double this number of monoterpene synthases." (51 actually...which means 30 are dormant?). This is the case with many other plants analysed in this effort, and it may be explained by limitations of record compilations or the unavailability of data under stress for the plant, since these are secondary metabolites induced for specific functions and a large number of biosynthetic genes may lie dormant under natural conditions. Interestingly, a few plants like the legume crop chickpea (Cicer arietinum) show a contrasting trend, wherein more terpene emissions have been recorded in literature than the predicted genomic potential (Marked in bold font in Table 1). This means that the number of TPS gene models in the plant genome is less than the total number of terpenes released by that plant, reflecting in turn, the unique ability of TPS enzymes to synthesize multiple products from a single substrate. A single predicted TPS gene product can thus generate many terpene compounds rather than only one, and this ability to create complex odor profiles from a minimal gene set can lead to an expansion of the terpene potential of the respective genome."

If a terpene or Cannabinoid has not been produced in a given plant, until it has been found I will take it at that. There is no end to presuming that TPS genes can produce many different compounds in Cannabis, do it, analyze the plant with and without the stress or factors you believe will cause activation of the dormant genes and then we can see the results. Until then it is speculation that Cannabis can do this, find it!!!
-SamS

Lots of things going on---

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 26, 2015

Or as I am saying the terpene and Cannabinoid contents can be negatively affected by the environmental factors which can reduce the %'s of terpenes and Cannabinoids, not that new different terpenes or Cannabinoids are made. With wine we know that over watering and over fertilization is great for yield and bad for quality, with Cannabis this has not yet been shown if it is true. I do agree that with the best cannabis the N is almost used up by harvest time and the taste and smells are better then high N levels at harvest.
-SamS

EclipseFour20 said:
I bet if someone composed a list of "factors affecting cannabis terpene emissions" the number would be over 1000.

We all agree on this simple notion: Nutrition (or the absence of them) affects the health of a plant, which in turn affects it's ability to produce and emit terpenes. So which element/mineral are required?

There are about 90 or so naturally occurring elements/minerals found on earth and most "bottled nutrients" include a fraction of them (16-21 or so)....one has to wonder which terpenes "lie dormant" for those that limit their plant's nutrition to just 16-21?

So under the "nutrition variables" in our list of "factors that affect cannabis terpene emission" we start with at least 90 variables. Simply stated: How much bling (gold/titanium/silver) is in your plant's nutrition? Environment same story--I can think of about 20 environmental variables (nighttime/daytime air/soil temperature, humidity, light intensity, gas levels (nitrogen, CO2, oxygen, etc), air flow, etc.)

Terroir in the wine world...includes things like: climate, soil, vine (rootstock and cultivar), and human factors including cultivator practices. That said, it seems the best vintages for wines occurred in years which there was a water deficit from flowering to harvest (climate). Types of soil and vine had very little correlation...which makes sense, because if they did then every year would be a stellar year for a given geographic location. Ahhh another example of how certain abiotic stress (particularly water stress) can be your friend.

Bubbleblower · Mar 26, 2015

Sam_Skunkman said:
If you can't activate the genes for potential new terpenes or Cannabinoids are they relevant?

What makes you think you can't?

Apparently they do come alive every once in a while and then we still talk about it 33 years later.

Nobody'sNursery · Mar 26, 2015

My two cents, mainly so I can get one post closer to 50 posts is this...
Nutrients (and other environmental factors) definitely effect the amount of terpene production, and to some smaller degree the flavor and character of the terpenes as well.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 26, 2015

Bubbleblower said:
What makes you think you can't?

Apparently they do come alive every once in a while and then we still talk about it 33 years later.

I suggest you list one example of lots of analysis of a Cannabis clone that when tested for terpenes or Cannabinoids over years only showed particular terpenes and Cannabinoids until dormant genes reactivated by whatever and then other terpenes or Cannabinoids showed up. Until you do your ideas are just speculation, maybe good maybe bad.
Once you can show it has happened you then need to sequence that Cannabis clone's DNA and find the genes for the different terpenes and Cannabinoids and see if they were active or dormant? Both when the new compound is found and before and after when it is not. Until then I will rely on what I do find with a GC analysis, I don't care about dormant genes if they do not produce something I can analyze and find, DNA sequencing work on all the varieties to find dormant genes or even active genes, is a much much much bigger task then a simple terpene and Cannabinoid analysis.
I am in favor of the DNA work, please do it and publish the results, I am more then interested, but not holding my breath. It will be done sooner or later, and then instead of speculation we will have hard facts. Just because it may be true for other species of plants does not make it true for Cannabis, I suggest you check hops for papers on DNA sequencing hops to find dormant genes for terpenes and if the genes can be turned on and made to express new novel terpenes never seen in the hop clone before? A lot more of this kind of work has been done with Hops then Cannabis, good luck with your search.
-SamS

Bubbleblower · Mar 26, 2015

Sam_Skunkman said:
I suggest you list one example of lots of analysis of a Cannabis clone that when tested for terpenes or Cannabinoids over years only showed particular terpenes and Cannabinoids until dormant genes reactivated by whatever and then other terpenes or Cannabinoids showed up.

Still watching the Chemistry of Essential oils, here is a start;

"The hierarchical cluster analysis of the C.sativa essential oil compositions indicated the essential oil from the Nepalese plants was chemically distinct from the essential oil of other Cannabis plants"

Chemotyping and Determination of Antimicrobial, Insecticidal, and Cytotoxic Properties of Wild-Grown Cannabis sativa from Nepal

Terpin production according to nutrients

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