Hydrogen Peroxide ???

Wildlifer69 said:

So any Mychorrhizae will be depleated with the addition of H2O2?

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With all due respect, I don't think Whatever knows of what he speaks. I am betting he is only repeating the "mumbo jumbo" he has heard.
Granted I am too repeating information, but mine came from researching the subject and experience, rather than simply raring back and making bold statements.

So it won't harm my growing mediums Bacteria/Mycor levels?

"mumbo jumbo"

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Gawd sakes I was just kidding really. I was referring to the yack about the 35%, safety and costs really. As for H202 and rocket fuel I'm familiar with the general characteristics of peroxides through a project I dealt with on calcium peroxide...which can be used to make bombs and it's restrictions in shipping. I also worked with 35% at a chemical company for about a year.

Some of my information about H202 and bacteria/fungi came from PM chats with Tom Hill, some of it came from chats with my friend who I mentioned above who works with a microscope and 100% organics in soil, a bit of info came from someone who's a mycologist. That's research in my book.

I mean jeez...do we need to post resumes when talking about stuff sometimes? Which was a bold statement(s)? I'd rather deal with this in a PM so will leave it at that.

Wildlifer69 said:

So it won't harm my growing mediums Bacteria/Mycor levels?

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What I have found is that H2O2 does indeed kill anaerobic bacteria, which does not thrive in a high oxygen environment. On the other hand, it feeds and adds to the health of aerobic bacteria, which thrives on oxygen.
We want aerobics in out medium and root zones, we do not want anaerobic.

It is common for folks to spout off about H2O2 killing the microherd, but I have found that this is for the most part unfounded and often just something folks like to add, when they have no idea of what they are saying.

I see no reason for PM's. This has nothing to do with anything personal.

Thanks Hoosierdaddy for clearing that up for me.

It's been said that the difference between medicine and poison is dosage.

I just had to do a little quick research to add to the conversation. Here's some information from by Amanda Hancock, Jennifer Hughes and Susan Watkins, Center of Excellence for Poultry Science, University of Arkansas and published in Avian Advice. Study basically done to assist the poultry industry. I've basically excerpted the article. Can you comment on this?

Products were evaluated for their ability to kill oxygen loving (or aerobic) bacteria, yeast and mold in the presence of a heavy organic load.

The products tested included a citric acid product; CID 2000®, (20 % stabilized hydrogen peroxide with acetic acid); 35% hydrogen peroxide; Poultry PronTech™ (quaternary ammonium compound); Pro Clean™, (50% stabilized hydrogen peroxide); Proxy Clean™, (50% stabilized hydrogen peroxide); and 6% sodium hypochlorite or house bleach.

Prior to adding the cleaners, the water in each jar was tested for the different microbes. Following cleaner addition the jars were held at room temperature until they were sampled at 4 and 24 hours. The pH of the samples was checked with a pH meter, while the aerobic plate counts (APC), yeast and mold counts were done using Petrifilm‰.

The initial aerobic bacteria counts (APC) ranged from 2 million to 35 million colony forming units per milliliter (CFU/ ml).

Counts from untreated (control) water increased slightly at both 4 and 24 hours, which showed that conditions favor survival of aerobic bacteria. When the products were compared at four hours post treatment, counts from the CID 2000® hydrogen peroxide treated water had the greatest reduction in bacteria counts with only 105 CFU/ml remaining. At 4 hours post treatment counts from the citric acid treated water showed no reduction. Although all the other products tested reduced bacteria counts, several thousand CFU/ml survived and this level is not acceptable for drinking water systems because it serves as a reservoir of bacteria to re-establish biofilms. At 24 hours, no bacteria were detected in water treated with the CID 2000®, ProClean™ 3%, or ProxyClean™ 3%. The hydrogen peroxide 3% solution also had dramatic reduction in bacteria counts at 24 hours. The bleach solutions tested showed minimal effectiveness in reducing bacterial counts, as did the PronTech™.

Conclusion
The products which showed the most effectiveness in virtually eliminating bacteria, yeast and mold were 2% CID 2000®, 3% ProClean™, 3% ProxyClean™ and 3% hydrogen peroxide (35% concentrate).


Honestly...I run across a lot of contradictory information over the last few years trying to understand the dynamics of growing better cannabis. Anything you can do to prove that some of what I have learned is wrong would be appreciated.

H2o2

H2o2

I use Hydrogen Peroxide (3% from the store) This really works. If you have a bad tooth ache. Cut it one part HP. and two parts water, put it in a glass and take a bunch in your mouth and don't swallow, just hold it on the bad tooth for about 1/2 hour about three to four times a day and in three to four days your tooth ache is gone. This really works, TRY IT. RM.

Whatever, I think we may need to analyze the numbers we see with a study like that.
The 3% solution is what was netted after a dilution was made using 35% concentrate.
The control sample would be like a bottle of 3% H2O2 sitting on the shelf.
In comparison to the topic at hand, if we add a straight bottle of H2o2 3% to our grow undiluted, we can expect to see funny things happen.
What you found really has no impact on our application.
Again, the difference between medicine and poison is dosage.

Ahhhh Man ~ Just when I thought it was all cleared up

AnyWay, all this info is "GREAT"...I truly Appreciate all the input!

And RocketMan, next time I get a Tooth Ache ~I know what too do.....
(I'll gargle with my nutes,& hope theres enough H2O2 )!

I said H202 will kill bacteria and it does. That statement was not incorrect or wrong. I don't want people to read this thread thinking H202 won't kill aerobic bacteria because it will. The concentration of H202 of a solution will determine its ability to reduce the bacterial load. From what I've learned monitoring ORP is the most scientific way to determine proper H202 levels. My friend Rolanterry said through his studies he learned that even small additions of H202 WILL negatively affect soil bacteria to some extent. This was done through microscopy work. I believe him as he's one of the more research oriented growers I know. He is focused on avoiding anything that negatively microlife.

I do believe that small concentrations of H202 added to soil grows will have a negative effect on SOME of the micropopulation but you will not sterilize the soil and it will recover fairly quickly but this also depends on the H202 concentration used. Yeasts/molds/fungi are more resilient than bacteria to H202. Yes the oxygen release will also promote new and vibrant microbial growth. Any bacterial die off will promote growth by providing a burst of nutrients and that is also some of the benefit people see. By manipulating ORP, which most people don't realize they are also doing when using H202, you are affecting the nutrient uptake fairly dramatically.

Wildlifer69 said:

(I'll gargle with my nutes,& hope theres enough H2O2 )!

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LOL...

If we take a look at all the growers that use H2o2 in multiple mediums, with no problems and only good reports, we will find testimonial after testimonial.
Finding reports of bad experiences are few and far between, and most of them have something other than the proper usage of H2o2 at the root.

Couple those anecdotes with the recommendations of both hydro shop guys and nute mfgs to use the stuff, and it's a safe bet it is not much of a hazard to anyones grow, IF used properly.

The evidence of it's worth is clear.

Just how many folks grows do we read about that have been damaged, or ruined, that could be blamed on peroxide killing their beneficial microbes? And just how did they arrive at this conclusion anyway?

IF used properly

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I've been saying the same thing all along.

The evidence of it's worth is clear.

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I've already stated I understand it's value. I never hesitate to recommend it to people in certain applications.

Just how many folks grows do we read about that have been damaged, or ruined, that could be blamed on peroxide killing their beneficial microbes?

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LOL...I never said folks stuff has been damaged or ruined and can't see how that would happen unless you really went over the edge with H202. Even then in something like hydro salts the only problem may be is if you had such a high concentration you actually burned the roots up. You probably couldn't even get that high cause you're pumps would probably bind up. In soil you could run into problems with overuse when running organics cause you're dependent on the microlife to convert the things like guanos, cottonseed meal, etc. into a form the plant can absorb. I don't think you'd kill the plant, unless maybe you were just watering with 3% straight out of the bottle all the time, but it wouldn't grow very well with excess use.

I'm mainly talking about the action of H202 in contact with microbes. You said H202 will not kill aerobic bacteria and is only good...that's not the truth. Find me a study that says that the introduction of some H202 will NOT kill at least some of the aerobic bacteria. The concentration determines it's 'sanitizing' strength which can range from almost non existent, but still there, to 100% lethal. ORP measures sanitizing strength. Some people are anal and adamant about checking pH and EC but wonder why no one except one person I've seen has not done more work with ORP...especially when using H202. The microlife is constantly repopulating itself and can easily handle a little hit then quickly recover. It's a natural life/death cycle but now you are not only accelerating the death cycle but also an accelerated and vigorous rebirth.

Honestly I don't think H202 in soil is necessary if you have got your mixed dialed in properly but not saying there would not be some benefit.


Some info about ORP:

The ORP (Oxidation Reduction Potential) is of major significance in the soil from both a biological and mineral standpoint. The ORP meter measures the quantity of available Oxygen which can be utilized by soil microorganisms and the roots of the plant. A deficiency of available Oxygen will limit biological activity as well as root activity and may increase the presence of pathogenic anaerobic soil microbes. All life obtains its energy from the flow of electrons from one material to another via oxidation-reduction reactions. In the soil, electrons are continually being transferred by the biological oxidation of organic matter. The organic matter and humus are major electron donors. Oxygen is the major electron acceptor and is the only electron acceptor which plants roots can utilize. Electron flow is reduced as organic matter is converted to humus and increases as fresh organic matter is added. When organic matter or raw manure is added to the soil, soil microbes begin digesting it and in the process tie up the soil)sd available Oxygen. This will cause a drop in ORP readings. This is particularly true in a compost pile. As the material is digested and converted into humus by the microbes, CO2 is created and a deficiency of Oxygen is common. This is why turning a compost pile is necessary, to introduce additional Oxygen. The ORP does not affect plant growth directly, but does control influential environmental conditions such as biological activity and nutrient flow. The ORP tester is the simplest way to measure the state of soil oxidation. Optimum ORP reading for active, healthy soils should be between 125-150. Soils below 100 are severely limited in Oxygen availability. Plant and microbial activity will suffer.

The rH (relative Humus) is a measurement developed by Lubkes of Austria to give a numerical reference to the humus formation process in the soil. A soil with an optimum rH has the ability to convert the highest potential of organic matter into humus, thus creating optimum plant growing conditions.

rH=(2xpH)+((210+ORP)/30)

The optimum rH is 27-29. Soils below 27 are lacking in available Oxygen and thus also in aerobic microbes. An rH level above 29 indicates a soil where decomposition is happening too quickly and some of the important carbon is being lost to the atmosphere as Carbon Dioxide.


Research Lubkes and think you'll find some interesting info. Unless people are monitoring ORP when using H202 they're just guessing...and I guessed a lot...lol.

good thread guys. I'm learning lots.

The bleach solutions tested showed minimal effectiveness in reducing bacterial counts, as did the PronTech (quaternary ammonium)™.

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Wow, pretty darned interesting, considering I've always been told Physan 20 (quaternary ammonium) is the best sterilizer then bleach.

It's nice to know cheap h202 beats them all.

And the Debate Rages on !

I Love This Scientific / High-Tech Stuff

Roll another one & on with the Lessons !

the Grotek superoxy claims to be food grade
and at $12 for a quart at 35%, it breaks down to less than
$.60 for a pint when compared to regular 3%
(after you unconsentrate it)

I used H2O2, at about 1tbs/gal, throughout my last hydro grow. Had really high temps and did get some root rot while away on vacation. The H2O2 killed the root rot and even seemed to trim the seriously affected roots leaving the healthy roots. I didn't take any pics, but the end root ball was huge and nearly white--until I added the mollasass during flush.

I would not do another hydro grow with out using H2O2. Good stuff.

Best,

DM

And the Debate Rages on !

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I'm just looking for solid, proven info.

inflorescence said:

Wow, pretty darned interesting, considering I've always been told Physan 20 (quaternary ammonium) is the best sterilizer then bleach.

It's nice to know cheap h202 beats them all.

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I messed with Physan 20 for a bit and been awhile but think there's something to it...right tool for the right job maybe? When I read that study I stumbled upon I also went whoa...bleach doesn't do much but Physan 20 seems to be effective...at least based on what the manufacturer is telling us. Problem with high concentrations of H202 in certain hydro systems is the 'bubbling' action as it will 'bind' up pumps and make em useless...even possibly damage em. It seemed to kill at least one pump I had going. H202 can be had for cheap...paid $30 a gal for 35%....but I used a lot...lol. If you get H202 like that DO NOT store exposed to light and best kept in a cool, dark place. If in the fridge wrap with tinfoil. I've yet to see a report of some explosion due to 35% H202 but have seen people get nasty burns...take precautions, ALWAYS wear cheap latex gloves, don't handle when stoned, rinse measuring containers when done. I mean you don't drink and drive drunk...do ya?

I did more research and came across US patent #4727031 where the 'claim' in the patent also included an addition of .1 mg to 1000 mg/l of hydrogen peroxide (no strength mentioned so only can make assumptions) to the medium/solution to help promote bacterial growth. Can only guess that 1 tbs of 3% per gal of water easily falls within that range.