What is with all the hermie seeds these days?

Ibechillin · Dec 28, 2018

Oregonism said:
Has anyone done a rodelized line and tried to STS the same line to compare?
Great comment on the monecious cycle with natural past harvest rodelization, environmental influence should be noted there too...or is it in the genotype?

My understanding is intersex traits are inherited, Rodelized or STS from same line offspring will be the same. The STS/CS line would still be carrying the trait for rodelization post harvest window.

I posted these on page #3 post #22:

Sam_Skunkman said:
I have found many female individuals that I could not reverse by stress, as well as a few that could not be reversed with STS. Why I do not know for sure.

There may be sex linked traits but this has not been proven in Cannabis.

One last point is plants do not just turn intersex because they have not been pollinated, they are born with the intersex traits, be they XY intersex or intersex traits that require stress of some sort to express the intersex. Both are inherited from intersex parents.

DoubleTripleOG said:
I'm about to find that out. The Deep Chunk that went intersex on me. Normally it wouldn't become intersex. But it was forced on it due to a light leak. So will the resulting seeds produce intersex plants ? Gonna find out real soon.

Since the Deep Chunk you have has the trait to go hermaphroditic somewhere in its parental lineage from photoperiod stress, some of the offspring can react the same way if they inherit the trait. Meaning the offspring probably wont unless exposed to photo period stress again.

ahortator · Dec 29, 2018

I was gifted long ago a rare precious (at least for me) sativa/NLD landrace strain. Due to some stupid problems, which weren't may fault, I only got seeds from a single intersexed plant. I have been growing them and they showed intersexed traits in different degree. I have found only a few almost female plants.

I stopped growing them due to a great lack of germination. I thought I lost the strain. However I got 2 plants. I was hoping I would get fresh seeds. But they are so slightly intersexed, that the few male flowers and bananas they make don't shed pollen, so they are completely seedless.

I was sure I could get male flowers interrupting the dark period placing the pots under the light of the kitchen in the middle of the dark period. But it has failed miserably.

igrowone · Dec 29, 2018

ahortator said:
I was gifted long ago a rare precious (at least for me) sativa/NLD landrace strain. Due to some stupid problems, which weren't may fault, I only got seeds from a single intersexed plant. I have been growing them and they showed intersexed traits in different degree. I have found only a few almost female plants.

I stopped growing them due to a great lack of germination. I thought I lost the strain. However I got 2 plants. I was hoping I would get fresh seeds. But they are so slightly intersexed, that the few male flowers and bananas they make don't shed pollen, so they are completely seedless.

I was sure I could get male flowers interrupting the dark period placing the pots under the light of the kitchen in the middle of the dark period. But it has failed miserably.

if the light period changes don't trigger male parts
the usual next step is the silver sprays, which i'm guessing you are aware of

ahortator · Dec 29, 2018

igrowone said:
if the light period changes don't trigger male parts
the usual next step is the silver sprays, which i'm guessing you are aware of

Yes I know. But I am not going to use STS nor CS.

I am going to keep clones alive from these two and I will look for anything which can pollinate them among the seeds of the same strain I still keep in the fridge. I hope some of them still may germinate when the weather gets warmer.

Ready4 · Dec 29, 2018

ahortator said:
I was gifted long ago a rare precious (at least for me) sativa/NLD landrace strain. Due to some stupid problems, which weren't may fault, I only got seeds from a single intersexed plant. I have been growing them and they showed intersexed traits in different degree. I have found only a few almost female plants.

I stopped growing them due to a great lack of germination. I thought I lost the strain. However I got 2 plants. I was hoping I would get fresh seeds. But they are so slightly intersexed, that the few male flowers and bananas they make don't shed pollen, so they are completely seedless.

I was sure I could get male flowers interrupting the dark period placing the pots under the light of the kitchen in the middle of the dark period. But it has failed miserably.

It is not so much the "interruption" of the dark period that causes some male flowers - try keeping a small light shining on the lower branches for 5-6 hours nightly. I just had a plant make some seeds ( no problem !

) , I figured out I had a pinhole direct light leak from the veg grow tent next to the plant - the exhaust tube flap ( do not use) had a tiny opening at its end that was delivering a tiny direct beam of light for about 6 hours nightly, right where the male flowers occurred. Try it out, I think you will get the desired results.

Lost in a SOG · Jan 1, 2019

Truly differentiated sex chromosomes are a pretty new to cannabis..

Dioecy occurs in approximately 7% of flowering plant species*[1],*[2], among which only a small number of species have cytogenetic and/or molecular evidence for sex chromosomes. In contrast to animals, where dioecism is often accompanied by sex chromosome dimorphism, cytogenetically distinguishable sex chromosomes have been reported only in 19 species, in 16 angiosperm families*[2]. Sex chromosomes are thought to have evolved independently in plants many times, suggesting a recent origin of sex chromosome dimorphism in many plants*[2],*[3],*[4],*[5],*[6],*[7],*[8],*[9].

Its nearest relatives are either autosomal:X or recently differentiated.

Hemp (Cannabis sativa, 2n = 20) and the common hop (Humulus lupulus, 2n = 20) have XX/XY chromosome system, while Japanese hop (H. japonicus,*2n = 16 for female and 17 for male) has an XX/XY1Y2 system.*C. sativa*has a male-determining Y*[2],*[35], but, in*H. lupulus*and*H. japonicus, sex is determined by the X to autosome ratio, although the Y chromosome is essential for normal pollen development in*H. lupulus*[36].*C. sativa*has a smaller genome size (0.84–0.91 pg*[37],*[38]) than those of the two Humulus species (1.7 pg for*H. japonicus*[39],*[40], and 2.90 pg for*H. lupulus*[39])

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897423/

Looks like the plant commits at around the 4th node..

Microscopic analysis of male and female apices revealed that their reproductive commitment may occur as soon as the leaves of the fourth node emerge; the genetic expression of male and female apices at this stage has been compared by cDNA-AFLP. A rapid method for the early sex discrimination has been developed, based on the PCR amplification of a male-specific SCAR marker directly from a tissue fragment.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10681-004-4758-7

nickman · Jan 3, 2019

I’ve had seeds that were made by a plant that went hermaphrodite on me... not sure of the exact reason but when I grown some of those seeds-all of them turned out hermaphrodite...

Something I noticed - when I was using chemical fertilizers I would always find a few male flowers here and there... I would feed with the chem ferts everytime I watered the plants...
since I’ve switched over to Organics I haven’t seen a male flower yet...

Mr. Greengenes · Jan 3, 2019

Hermies get a bad rap, but sometimes you need to deal with them to get what you're looking for. Couple decades ago, a friend gave me some seeds of a beautiful golden sativa he got touring near the Mekong Delta region. I think I started 24 seeds and every single one was a fence straddler of some kind or other. I outcrossed, and wrassled that cross for a couple generations eliminating hermies with a vengeance. All I really wanted from the Mekong golden sativa was that amazing smell and taste and I was willing to tolerate hermies to get it.

Genetics play a big role, but people are correct to point out the environmental triggers of hermaphrodites. Other than the usual culprits, I think too much N causing root growth during flowering is often overlooked.

GoatCheese · Jan 4, 2019

Yea grower's skills and environmental factors push plants to show hermie-traits, but i also think that it is an bull shit EXCUSE by some "breeders" (and their fan boys/girls) to many times blame the grower or the environment for hermie-traits in their line. For some people it's never dodgy genetics or lazy parent-plant selection, it's always shitty growing that cause plants to go hermie. ..yea right.

I'm not the best grower and the girls get a rough ride sometimes, but still some plants just DO NOT GROW nanners regardless of my shitty and lazy growing ....strange isn't it! If it's always the "growers' fault" then why don't they all go "hermie" on me.

But also..

Little stress during bloom can also be a useful tool to weed-out the most (hermie)sensitive plants of the bunch
:tiphat:

Lost in a SOG · Jan 4, 2019

Yeah the research seems to show its mostly genetics and not some accident. With better growing conditions you can encourage hermie lines to produce more female:male flowers, because of epigenetics, but it looks like the genetics want to do it regardless anyway so long as they come from lines with certain markers. The lines not carrying the dodgy Autosomal:X rather than more developed X:Y dont seem to have the ability to herm.

maimunji · Jan 4, 2019

Some plants just herm and thats it. Its not only about line its more about individual plants but some lines is more prone to hermi than others. I usually have 1 or 2 from 10 that always herm doesnt matter what line and breeder i grow. Also i have more herm from regular stocks than feminized. I grow many top breeders Bodhi, Karma, Og raskal, Serious seeds, Rare dankness, Sensi seeds and many, many more known and unknown dudes hermi is all over there. Hermi is inside genetics because plant need to reproduce yourself to ensure new life in next generation. Selection is a key. I dont believe there is line without any single nanner maybe will be 1 plant from 100 but hermi will exist its all about luck what you will find same with potency you can have 99 non potent and number 100 can be holy grail.

JohnnyChicago · Jan 4, 2019

In Sensi's, Positronics and Dutch Passion's gear I almost never saw hermi-traits till 2005. Nor in my grows, nor in the grows my friends did. Strawberry Cough and Ultra Skunk were our fav strains in 2005.
Then few years later DP started selling feminized seeds, and we saw banana's popping here and there like we never saw before on the same strains we grew before and we decided to not use Dutch Passions gear again. I don't know what else they changed, but for sure they were the first big breeder/seedbank wo started selling fems only.
Instead we used Karma's gear (loved his old Sour Jack, it was so incensey and so damn sour!) but also Sensi and KC Brain, and we saw almost no herm traits again. Then later more and more offerings became prone to show herm-traits, and today most seem to.

I'm not saying that feminizing is the cause. I have no clue what else DP changed, and I'm no expert, I'm just sharing the experience we had with DP when they changed their gear from reg to fem.

But in my opinion using only regular seeds, will not safe you from having herm-traits in your genetics. Maybe this was true 20 years ago, but today in the whole jungle of modern offerings you can rarely be 100% sure no feminized or herm prone plants have been used in the genetics.

But like I said in my previous post, on the Panama cut I have since 2014 that came from a feminized seed and on the Panama Haze I did with that cut, I never saw a male flower, even when they have been heavily stressed. Same on the crosses I did with the 2 plants. Still searching for hermi traits.

MedResearcher · Jan 6, 2019

Who knows for sure, hard to say.

I figure originally all land race genetics had a lot of hermie issues. Breeders spent decades slowly removing undesirable traits in large populations, and breeding. Eventually a lot of the lines were really worked, people got use to it, took it for granted. One herm popped up in a seed pack, that breeder was shunned, and or the line was pulled from the market.

Fast forward to the last decade of breeding, not sure I can name a single breeder who is doing large populations to remove undesirable traits. Nobody is on instagram advertising stable worked lines. It is almost entirely pollen chuck, pop a huge population, and find the best clone. People get tired of it, repeat again. Half the females having herm issues, is normal.

Quicker, faster returns in the later breeding model. Last three times I have gone to the hydro store, someone was at the counter buying switch, reverse, or a generic knockoff to the hormone that stops herms. The more and the longer the undesirable traits are not removed from the populations, the longer it will take to remove them.

Maybe geneticists and labs will fix the problem, not sure if it will ever be as good as it was though. Think about fruit, no producers grow random seed, its all some specific cut, Pink Lady #3, Fuji #2, etc.

#mochagelatobiniworthsprayinghormones?

Mr^^

Ibechillin · Jan 6, 2019

MedResearcher said:
Who knows for sure, hard to say.

I figure originally all land race genetics had a lot of hermie issues.

There are landraces immune to intersex and reversal. The intersex traits can be worked out of a strain by crossing with a strain that resisits it or is immune. If hermie plants are common in a seed line its because the breeder didnt take the time to work the unsavory traits from the parental plants. Thai is a notorious intersex plant and people have been crossing it to everything for 50+ years now.

Sam_Skunkman said:
I have found many female individuals that I could not reverse by stress, as well as a few that could not be reversed with STS. Why I do not know for sure.

Sam_Skunkman said:
We found that any female clones that can not be stressed to express intersex flowers are unlikely to produce progeny that express intersex flowers. I am not referring to STS as a stress, it alters sex expression temporarily, it does not alter the genes.

We also found that using a Thai female clone that does express intersex flowers even without stress, when we used the pollen from the intersex flowers, they also produced all females and almost all were expressing intersex flowers, not surprising as like begets like.

Mr. Greengenes · Jan 11, 2019

There definitely are plants that are almost entirely 'female' in the sense that they're practically impossible to make hermie. I have 2 or 3 that I think fit that description. I figure that a ten year old clone that's never, ever shown a 'nanner' in 3-4 different growers gardens is a candidate for the label 'un hermie able'.

Obviously, if I were to breed plants like this and select for that trait, we'd have a line of plants that would be resistant to hermie-ism.

As an interesting side note, one of my most un-hermie-able plants is also resistant to pollination. I can dust it with pollin and it will have only a few hollow seeds and probably no viable ones. Occasionally, I have found viable seeds on her, so it's possible, just very difficult.

JockBudman · Jan 17, 2019

I had to kill a hermie last night, my first in ages, a TH seeds strawberry glue.

Looking at the heritage I'm not surprised - it's lineage is a mess of selfed clones hacked together, some known to herm. I'm sure it's that and not environment as the blimburn gsc and GDP seem ok and the ace mix and mandala mix clones from reg seeds are doing ok too. I'm keeping an eye on TH seeds under dawg og as that looks like it might go as well.

Having said that, the only plant I like out of the fem freebies from blimburn and TH is the GDP, which is just an Afghan skunk (big bud) × urkle (purple kush?) and this probably the first selfed generation that I'm growing rather than strawberry glues mashup of s1's. The og is looking like it might herm too and the gsc had great vigour but is now growing tiny buds.

Honestly think I'm done with fem beans as main plants. I'll still chuck freebies in now and then but I'm gonna stick to regs (never, ever had a reg herm on me) although that's not exactly easy as every breeder seems to be dropping their reg lines

Best start breeding my own regs and I'd encourage everyone to do the same before we're drowning in finicky, slow growing bullshit. I don't care if it smells like god's **** - if it grows like crap and herms it can fuck off.

Don't believe the hype

Ganja gu brah :joint:

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What is with all the hermie seeds these days?

Ibechillin

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ahortator

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igrowone

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ahortator

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Ready4

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Lost in a SOG

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Mr. Greengenes

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Lost in a SOG

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maimunji

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MedResearcher

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Ibechillin

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