The myth, of the high P myth?

spurr · Jan 29, 2011

mullray said:
Spurr what jargon are they spinning here?

Advanced Nutrients use very low levels of amino proteinates (glycine bonded M ions = 2 mol glycine to 1 mol M ion) for chelated micro nutrients along with much higher levels of EDTA chelated micro elements in Sensi Grow and Bloom. They also use Versene Acid and Versene 220 which is an EDTA which will further chelate some elements such as calcium and manganese (they'll also chelate heavy metals and make these more bioavailable).

Chelation is often greatly oversimplified and is way more complex than some would have you to believe.The fact you believe that Advanced Nutrients chelate NPK only supports this.

Your adversarial attitude is getting very old, you can disagree without being disagreeable, you should try it, it's fun.

I understand chelation, albeit it seems to a lower degree than yourself (or as you are trying to make it seem), so try to lay off the attitude, will ya? You are not writing to a 3rd grader or someone who doesn't have a strong science background...

I only wrote what AN claims, so take it up with AN, umkay?

spurr · Jan 29, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
The problem with having a lot of EDTA in your mix is that it forms very large molecules that will not pass through cell walls...it has to let go of whatever metal it is attached to for that metal to be effective.

It's true that the molecule size is larger verses amino acid or humic acid or fulvic acid chelates; but I am pretty sure EDTA can be absorbd by root tissue, or DTPA is maybe what I am thinking about. IIRC that study I posted about synthetic chelating agents covers that topic a bit; but I could be wrong. Do you have references stating that EDTA cannot be absorbed by root tissue?

i honestly think you are better off going with non-chelated micros and controlling your media pH fairly precisely. why put something in your plant that can lead to problems just to avoid paying attention to what you are actually doing.

Some root exudates and microbial exudates will chelate some ions (ex. amino acids, citric acid, citrate, etc.), thus ions will get chelated to some degree even if we do not chelate them. I for one prefer using chelated micros (with amino acid) just to the fact of reducing the insoluble Fe-Pi, Al-Pi, Ca-Pi, etc.

I am currently using Yucca plant extract (therm 70) as a surfactant. i will go on the hunt for the stuff you mentioned Mullray.

I have used ThermX70 and it works OK, but it's not as good as top notch synthetic surfactants, AFAIU, IMO and IME. Before you buy a surfactant make sure to look at its ingredients. After using DM Penetrator and Saturator, I would probably not buy the surfactant Mullray wrote about because I was not happy with the surfactant and emulsifying properties from either DM product. Greanted, I do not know the product Mullray wrote about, so I want to check it out...

YosemiteSam · Jan 29, 2011

I am looking at these surfactants you guys mentioned. My problem is I have a rule that I adhere to when I eat...that is if there is something on the label I cannot pronounce, or is obviously a long combo of synthetic chemicals I ain't gonna eat it...or spray it on the plants I intend to smoke.

I don't doubt they are quite effective but they look a whole lot like the polymer polysorbate.

I am going to have to think for quite a while before I switch from Yucca for whatever small gain I might achieve.

spurr · Jan 29, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
I don't doubt they are quite effective but they look a whole lot like the polymer polysorbate.

I am going to have to think for quite a while before I switch from Yucca for whatever small gain I might achieve.

More important then changing your surfactant is using very high RH for spraying and after spraying. Spay droplet size is worth considering, too; that fogger I posted is only ~$95. For RH I use an expensive higher power humidifier (~$250), but I used to use three impeller style cool-mist humidifiers (ex. Vicks 420) and they worked fine for RH ~80-85% in a room that is ~12x10x8.

What application rate do you use for ThermX-70? I used to use 2.5 ml per gallon, which is close to following label directions of 8 oz. (~237 ml) per 100 gallon; but for 1 gallon. That was effective, but the negative effect of saponins that can hinder some fungi in the phyllosphere was a major reason I wanted to find another option. Granted, the current surfactant I use could also hinder fungi, but I have not found info stating the ingredients do hinder fungi like is the case with saponins.

FWIW, I have tested tween 20 and tween 80 (aka polysorbate 20 and 80) as surfactant/emulsifier and they worked OK, on par with ThermX-70 IMO. They are non-toxic food-grade IIRC, which is nice. I preferred them to using yucca extract because they do not hinder fungi AFAIK.

YosemiteSam · Jan 29, 2011

trans fat and partially hydrogenated fat are also considered "food grade" but you didn't exactly find them in real food. my real rule of thumb is if my body cannot digest something in its raw state, i do not eat it...tweens included.

again, not arguing they probably are more effective and probably are mostly safe...it is just a thang with me.

good tip on the humidity. my problem is if i let my sealed room go that high it takes my dehuey/air conditioner 2 days to get humidity back where i want it.

the atomizing sprayer definitely sounds good. we have an air compressor so i was looking at a sprayer used to paint cars to get that same atomizing effect.

spurr · Jan 30, 2011

mullray said:
spurr said:

Your adversarial attitude is getting very old, you can disagree without being disagreeable, you should try it, it's fun.

I only wrote what AN claims, so take it up with AN, umkay?

Click to expand...

I'm guessing this is a hangover from your Phi thread Let it go. It was kinda funny don't you think?

No, I forgot you were the disingenuous troll in that thread, thanks for reminding me. I forgot about your lack of understanding about soil solution (i.e., water) and water in hydro and your imagined/conjuncture filled difference between the two types of water. I also remember your citation of a hydro study that backed up 100% what I wrote, even though you mistakenly thought it didn't. And if you notice, both Phi threads are in my sig, so that should show you how I feel about the threads

FWIW, I was referring to your posts in this thread; I see you haven't changed your modus operandi.

Now I realize who you are, this will be my last post to you, I won't waste my time on you again.

Spurr I was taking it up with AN. It wasn't an attack on you but more their dribble. On the other hand its important to give good info and in some cases I find your info just enough to be dangerous.

What I find odd is out of both of us, I am the only one to provide full references for everything I write. How about you back up your claims about P not being chelate(able)? You posted one study to back up claims you made of Phi, and you didn't even understand that study, I had to explain it to you.

Croda only sells in volume (as the manufacturers) to large onsellers but you will likely find their surfactant in Ag stores rebottled. [snip more BS from you] It is good gear but then so are most surfactants - they're all pretty much of a muchness (just some come with more BS than others and this is particularly true of Dutchmaster Penetrator with its rediclous claims)

There is much difference between types of surfactants, and between NISs, too. And to suggest otherwise is crazy. There are anionic sufactants, cationic surfactants, non-ionic surfactants, organo-silicone surfactants, concentrated crop oil surfactants, etc., etc. Again, between the both of us, I am the only one to fully reference my claims about foliar spraying and surfactants...

Yep, re anion chelation - it's a very different form of chelation and to cation chelation. For instance, fulvic and humic will in some way mobilize P, K and N but this is not actually chelation in the same way as cation chelation occurs.

References please. Also, ammoniacal N are cations, and potassium is a cation to, fwiw.

And yes, amino acids are similar again but to call it chelation is not technically correct in Ag science terms. As I said from the start though if you have any good research on the subject I'd be interested to see it and have a read.

Chelation of cations with amino acids or humic acid (humates) or fulivc acid *is* indeed true chelation for horticultural scientists, and horticulturalists alike; unless you can prove otherwise with legit references (more than one). The onus is on you because you're the one making the claim.

Now I know who you are, I will not be posting the info about humo-phosaphte or amino acid chelated phosphate; I am not about to spend anymore time on you.

Welcome to my ignore list :wave:

FlaDankster · Jan 30, 2011

Shut up guys and talk fookin plants will yas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is it "some" of the most educated and experienced peeps go through this shit?Mofos are tryin ta learn shit and some of the guys that "can" help are needin a damn WHAAAAAMBULANCE!

Don't talk shit back to me please.....just continue the thread so i can learn more than just how touchy some are.Goodfucingrief!!

Thank you....i'm done....

Guest 18340 · Jan 30, 2011

FlaDankster said:
Shut up guys and talk fookin plants will yas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is it "some" of the most educated and experienced peeps go through this shit?Mofos are tryin ta learn shit and some of the guys that "can" help are needin a damn WHAAAAAMBULANCE!

Don't talk shit back to me please.....just continue the thread so i can learn more than just how touchy some are.Goodfucingrief!!

Thank you....i'm done....

YosemiteSam · Jan 30, 2011

how about a couple of pics

how about a couple of pics

These are 5 weeks into flower. They have been basically fed 40 ppm P throughout their life (i fed them 50 ppm for 3 feeds in week 4 then changed my mind and went to a 3-1-5 formula at 40 ppm P and plant to stay there for the rest of the grow).

Bud formation does not seem to be suffering too badly :tiphat:

I am willing to put on my mythbuster hat and call this one busted. Who would have thunk I would end up agreeing with anything Big Mike said in one of his videos???

spurr · Jan 30, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
These are 5 weeks into flower. They have been basically fed 40 ppm P throughout their life (i fed them 50 ppm for 3 feeds in week 4 then changed my mind and went to a 3-1-5 formula at 40 ppm P and plant to stay there for the rest of the grow).

Bud formation does not seem to be suffering too badly

Hell no it does not; nice plants. Btw, you sure have two green thumbs

Where do you get your fertilizers? From hydro-gardens?

I am willing to put on my mythbuster hat and call this one busted. Who would have thunk I would end up agreeing with anything Big Mike said in one of his videos???

Would you be the funny guy or the guy with the mustache?

I agree and found the same thing using ~40 ppm...

tester · Jan 30, 2011

Lots of colas there bro.
What's your NPKCaMgS and which week is this?

Also could you tell me (here or in a PM) more about the ferts, pH adjusters, and water you use? (type, amounts etc. so I can doublecheck)

SmokinErb · Jan 30, 2011

Just in time, I think. I had every single FF product in a shopping cart and ready to check out just as I came across this.

Lemme get this straight. Tiger Bloom and all 3 of the dry solubles are nothing but marketing for the consumer who believes that they're needed?

Edit: If this is the case is there a better line I should use for a soilless medium application? I've always used the FF line with success. I was looking into Biocanna, would that be a better route?

YosemiteSam · Jan 30, 2011

The plants are exactly 5 weeks into flower in these pics.

These plants started on JRPeters 5-12-26 and YaraLiva CaNO3 from http://customhydronutrients.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index

Then at the end of stretch they were sprayed with Calcium 25 (have been once every 4 weeks since the day they popped roots plus a couple of sprays of Brix Mix also along the way)

From there I increased the strength of that mix to 50 ppm P for 3 feedings then changed my mind and went with a 3-1-5 formula with stuff from Custom Hydro.

I am not at the spot (where my info is) and I do not want to trust my memory. I will get that info tonight and post it tomorrow right here...might as well let everyone see it. Plus I would love to see some tester charts showing what I am up to.

The owner of Custom Hydro is a good friend who is extremely knowledgeable about custom mixes. He has been a huge help in developing my so called "green thumb" which really isn't...just science applied a little at a time til one day...hmmmm, maybe I do know what I am doing. I would highly recommend him and his site for anyone wanting to get into mixing your own. Maybe you can find slightly better prices (and maybe not, they are excellent) but you won't find support like his from anywhere else I know of.

I will post all 3 formulas that I have used in this grow.

tester...you can check out more pics over at my journal.

spurrrr...i am the one with the mustache

edit...ooops, i am using RO and I rarely need pH down but when I do I use citric acid so as not to upset any ratios, I never need pH up.

another edit...fwiw I think they are a hair too green at this point. I am thinking next time I start clones I may start em on a little bit lower N and P. I feel like if you get that right and allow the plants to grow a little more slowly you end up with better structure to the plants and better yield in the long run.

YosemiteSam · Jan 31, 2011

here you go tester

here you go tester

Scott's Hydro Special 5-12-26 Guaranteed Analysis

N (nitrate only).........5%
P2O5.......................12
K2O.........................26
Mg...........................6.32
S.............................8.21
B.............................0.05
Cu............................0.015
Fe............................0.3
Mn...........................0.05
Mo...........................0.01
Zn............................0.015

Derived from: potassium phosphate, potassium nitrate, magnesium sulfate, boric acid, iron edta, manganese edta, zinc edta, copper edta, ammonium molybdate

At 3.64 grams per gal of hydro special plus 2.41 grams of CaNO3 (YaraLiva). Peter's says the elemental ppms are:

N.......150
P.......52
K.......172
Ca.....116
Mg....63
SO4...246 (or S at 82)
Fe.....3
Mn....0.5
Zn....0.15
Cu....0.15
B......0.5
Mo....0.1

To get my 40 ppm P formula I simply use 77% of those numbers. The 50 ppm P feedings were actually just the full strength formula.

My 40 ppm P 3-1-5 formula is (per gallon):

CaNO3....2 grams
KNO3......1
MKP........0.66
MgSO4....1.6
K2SO4.....0.45
Plus a micro package

I believe this to be (elemental ppm)
N...118
P....40
K....201
Ca...96
Mg...40
S.....73

Calcium 25 was fed at 1 teaspoon per gallon (i weighed a teaspoon full at 6 grams...a little past level) about 1 time per month (i am going to do it weekly from now on)

Brix Mix was fed 2 or 3 times total. I don't have the analysis but it is mostly K.

I look forward to your analysis.

tester · Jan 31, 2011

Based on that NPK I get a different K content (pls note that the NPK ratios also changed because of this difference (Bolded)):

50P

146.8 N
140.4 NO3
7 NH4
115.4 P2O5
50.3 P
250 K2O
207.5 K (instead of 172. To get 172, the NPK on the label should be 5-12-22 instead of 5-12-26)
121 Ca
60.8 Mg
2.88 Fe
0.4808 B
0.4808 Mn
0.0962 Mo
0.1442 Cu
78.9 S
669 PPM
N2O5:K2O ratio = 1.3 : 1 : 2.2
N:K ratio = 2.9 : 1 : 4.1
Ca:Mg ratio = 2 : 1
K:N ratio = 1.4 : 1
NO3:NH4 ratio = 20 : 1

40P with the salts

118.2 N
112.9 NO3
5.8 NH4
90.7 P2O5
39.5 P
240.2 K2O
199.4 K
100.4 Ca
40.2 Mg
73 S
571 PPM
N2O5:K2O ratio = 1.3 : 1 : 2.6
N:K ratio = 3 : 1 : 5
Ca:Mg ratio = 2.5 : 1
K:N ratio = 1.7 : 1
NO3:NH4 ratio = 19.4 : 1

And a chart just for you

OsWiZzLe · Jan 31, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
These are 5 weeks into flower. They have been basically fed 40 ppm P throughout their life (i fed them 50 ppm for 3 feeds in week 4 then changed my mind and went to a 3-1-5 formula at 40 ppm P and plant to stay there for the rest of the grow).

Bud formation does not seem to be suffering too badly
View attachment 99931

View attachment 99932

View attachment 99934

View attachment 99933

I am willing to put on my mythbuster hat and call this one busted. Who would have thunk I would end up agreeing with anything Big Mike said in one of his videos???

nice

YosemiteSam · Jan 31, 2011

Yes my own chart. Credit for the actual calculating part goes to Custom Hydro...I merely asked for a 3-1-5 formula.

Methinks after looking at that I will bump up the magsulfate to achieve 50 ppm Mg. So I will be going to 2 grams/gal magsulfate next res.

I really like your charts tester. It makes comparisons really easy. Thank you.

spurr · Jan 31, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
Yes my own chart

I really like your charts tester. It makes comparisons really easy. Thank you.

Ditto! And it appears tester has changed the layout a bit, your chart is more eye pleasing than the one he made for me for my mix vs. lucas mix vs. Gh3d mix (not that I don't like the chart tester, I do)

I am getting the nurton 2000+ software, so I think I will be making some custom mixes with fertilizer compounds from Hydro-gardens (link), he sells chelated micros, etc. I will have to ask tester to make a new chart (or two) for me...hope you don't mind tester!

YosemiteSam · Feb 1, 2011

Those are some nice chelated micros. If I get my hands on one of those mg gem scales that looks like a most excellent way to go...one more knob to play with, micro ratios.

spurr · Feb 1, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
Those are some nice chelated micros. If I get my hands on one of those mg gem scales that looks like a most excellent way to go...one more knob to play with, micro ratios.

Here is what I use for small weighting tasks:

$129 and down to 0.001 g
http://www.americanweigh.com/produc...cts_id=2116&osCsid=t1963gapqg069aaekoaisc1s17

Here is a cheaper option, $74 and down to 0.001g
http://www.americanweigh.com/produc...ucts_id=580&osCsid=t1963gapqg069aaekoaisc1s17

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The myth, of the high P myth?

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