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Synce LED vs HLG QBs

Elephunk

Member
Hey guys...

Decided to make a new thread. I had made the one about the htg cobs, but it’s now evident I should steer clear of any HTG gear.

Would rather bring this discussion here now that I’m researching the LED scene harder.

Found out about this company ScynceLED.

Wondering if anyone has experience with their systems. They look pretty sick and there is an app to control the lighting right off your phone. Pretty rad (if it actually gets results)

If you were a part of the HTG cob thread or checked it out, you’ll know my cab in the works is 22 x 58 x 60.

I am looking seriously at HLG QB kits to line the entire top with 4) 135w individual fixtures to run a perpetual SOG.

But having seen this other company I am intrigued.

Their fixtures would fit that narrow space perfectly and I can choose between a 120 degree or 70 degree beam angle. I would likely go with the 70 because my space is narrow.

I have decided to run the LED route. I’m looking for solid yields comparable to the appropriate HID equivalence. It’s already apparent the LEDS are putting out in quality of the flowers.

But the benefits (depending on the system) of lowering your heat, draw wattage, actually being able to control that aspect of the light, now even being able to dial different spectrums!?!, better PAR, ideally running quieter/potentially smaller fans and other secondary environment equip, cleaner and more streamlined set up (important in a cab), is just outweighing the HID route for me.

But anyway, fuck my temporary set up.

I want to know your thoughts and openly discuss the dragon XL 600w, 1200w, or the Dragon LP 250w and compare them to HLG quantum’s.

They have a Dragon LP 150w coming out soon according to their website.

Thoughts? News? Direct experience? How do you think these would stack up to quantum boards? Or is the verdict still out? Thoughts/ experience on the spectrum control app? Anyone seen direct results grown 100% under any of these systems WITHOUT any additional HID or supplementary help? Pics of your set up. Pics of your LED ladies. YIELD report!?

I was literally set to pull the trigger on the 4 QBs. like, I was filling out the order info... then I saw these and fucked myself all up again.

Curious as to your thoughts on the beam angle bubble over the diodes. Is this a real benefit vs the QB diodes?
 
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Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
Why are you interested in them? They don't seem anything special.. No one's used them I've come across in my LED journey, they look like a new company.. from the over engineering and IP66 rating I bet they will be so over priced your jaw will hit the ground.. stick with the QBs imo..
 

Elephunk

Member
Why am i so interested In them...

Well, I work 18 hour days running my own business. I grind my fucking ass off for every dollar I earn. So when it comes to buying equipment, which I do regularly for my business, I want to make the best, most informed decision I can within my allowable budget. I try my best to mitigate mistakes or buying equipment that doesn’t perform or increase my efficiency.

I found these guys on IG. They have pics of their gear in indoor warehouse ops. If that isn’t just a publicity thing, and people running large scale production shows are trusting their financial success on this gear, then I’m curious if it is a solid option to look into.

Thus the reason for this thread. To see if anyone has used this gear or seen its results. I have no idea how new/old they are in the market.

The idea of being able to dial the spectrum is interesting to me. It gives a grower that much more control in this artificial environment which is what we are constantly after; A dialed to perfection simulated space.

Sounds pretty cool. I don’t see those features in the QB realm (yet).

Their fixtures being narrow are ideal for my current situation. Being that these are pricey, the fact that I could take this to a larger set up in the future adds value.


Edit: as far as price goes... I mean $2k on their biggest model doesn’t really phase me. $1k on the 600 is what I would also expect if it really pulls results. LEDs are still expensive, especially quality diodes and drivers. I just expect that cost as part of the tech, R&D, manufacturing, supply, etc. that’s a long fucking list way to extensive to write out to get to end product and it all costs money.

Maybe because I work in manufacturing I understand these things because I live/ run it daily. People need to shit-can that misconception that anything made of quality is cheap. You get what you pay for. Real simple.

So price point wise... my jaw isn’t hitting the floor. They list their prices in their website btw. Take a look.

In my situation though, I’m not outfitting a warehouse. I’m talking about 1 light to aid in bringing solid, consistent yields and top quality herb for a personal cab. So it really doesn’t kill me to spend that. I mean... I could buy herb all day... but this is a hobby for me. Actually growing brings me immense satisfaction and helps me relax and unwind from all of the stress of my business. (Lol, smoking the herb is the other component to that of course). So I don’t mind putting some money into it in order to grow the best herb I can with my own hands. And... I can also bury the costs associated into a job price to pay for it for me. So there’s that...

I spend many tens of thousands more on machinery for my business. But those machines get me efficiency, higher precision, and ultimately higher quality so it’s worth it. But I still research the shit out of any piece of equipment and compare first because business has driven into me the necessity of not wasting money.

If it doesn’t make gains, it’s not worth it.

Just trying to find out more and get real feedback from people who get their hands dirty.
 
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Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
Yeah I've not come across anyone's opinions on them yet. Hopefully someone pops in here that has first hand experience.

I mean I agree with you. Buy once, buy right. And I'm sure that light will last ages and it looks well designed and manufactured.

most people using LEDs are trying to save money so spending so much initially puts many off..

Will all the extra bells and whistles be that much more worth it in the end product? I doubt it.. but happiness and satisfaction are intangeable concepts and that light might make you super happy.

I say buy one and let the community know what you think..
 

Koondense

Well-known member
Veteran
My thoughts are "meh".
The site provides more words than data and looks a bit fishy, kinda nice for a not so educated customer but worthless for a led tech spec sheet seeker.
Nobody knows which led models are in their fixtures so I would assume the total efficiency to be similar to hps lights(600w or 1000w).
The prices are way too high for such lights and I'd recommend you to look for Timber led lights, latest tech, real specs and nicely built + most affordable on the market(plug in & grow).


Good luck
 

Elephunk

Member
Question with the QBs...

Does anyone see any major differences between the 3000k and 4000k growth?

I'm looking at the different options in kelvin between these two manufacturers and what they have available to try and figure out how I'm going to piece the lighting together.

In relation to flower growth... Do you guys see a big difference with far red LEDs vs say the 4000k or 5000k?

The QBs have the option for 3k,4k,5k.

This other company lets you adjust and play with those levels all in one.

But does it really make any noticeable differences when you run a 4k and add in the supplement far reds vs just running the 4k?
 

Elephunk

Member
Thanks KD.

Yeah I did check out Rapid and Timber. I think you or someone else in the other thread posted about the Rapids.

These guys are running COB led though right?

I kind of stopped thinking of them as an option due to the more focused design. I could see that being great if you have ceiling height to get the fixture up higher where it can spread out more before it hits the top of the canopy.

Unless I'm wrong on that thinking. Likely.

Do the COBs have better light penetration that the samsungs in the QBs?

Also, do the COBs produce more heat than the QBs?

Sigh... feel like I'm running in circles on this. But thinking is free so I would rather really think this over before just jumping.

I guess I'm trying to figure if I'll get better, more consistent growth out of a more even spread of LEDs or if I went with something like a Timber, would it be short and compact directly under the bulb/ stretchy to the sides of the directed beam.
 

Koondense

Well-known member
Veteran
Indeed thinking is free, it reminded my deciding days when I went the DIY route with cree cobs.
I think there are minor differences between 4000K and 3000K, but from my experience would pick the 3K leds for a full cycle and especially for flowering. The 3500K cobs I have now are perfect for both phases, I suspect the 4000K lack reds for proper flowering.


Cobs produce more or less same amount of heat as QBs but QBs are larger and dissipate heat much easier off the board surface, no need for cooling fans.
Cobs should in theory have better light penetration but are not so even in light spread.


You can give me some details about your grow space to get better infos on what would better fits your needs.


Cheers
 

Elephunk

Member
KD,

Thats interesting to know about the QBs and heat management.

So do your COBs all have computer fans on the back of the heat sinks?

I spoke to a guy at timber. He said regardless of the tech, each 1 watt LED produces 31.4 BTU.
 

Ichabod Crane

Well-known member
Veteran
The Dragon 600XL 600 has a PPF of 1063 at 600 watts. The HLG 550 has a PPF of 1178 at 473 watts. PPF is a rating of how much light the fixture produces in the light spectrums that the plant needs.

So the HLG 550 produces more usable light for less power consumption. And at a cheaper price. The Dragon cost $1295 and the HLG 550 cost $1048.

I only looked at this one light.
 

Ichabod Crane

Well-known member
Veteran
And another thing about the Dragon is that it is only 24"x7". That is a small foot print. About a third the size of the HLG 550.

And since you mentioned the density of the cobs being a issue this may be a issue for you as well.
 

Elephunk

Member
Thanks for the knowledge Ichabod. (And everyone who has contributed to helping me learn more.

That’s exactly the info I had zero idea about in how to compare. All these little tid bits you guys drop helps point me into more research to get a better understanding.

I’m still a bit lost in the way you guys compare the leds strength/effectiveness. The whole umol thing and efficacy measures. Trying to get informed.

At this point I’m totally, totally sold on LED. Somehow I stumbled into a thread where guys were running the off the shelf led bulbs with the lenses off.

I was thinking, no way in hell is this going to get it done (well). FLOORED.

I’m almost feeling like it doesn’t even matter anymore... QB, COBs... just pick one. if the screw ins are doing that for people, anything I choose at this point is going to help produce top quality in addition to a dialed system.


Being that I’m planning to perpetual SOG, the varried heights from left to right might be an issue.

This is where I just don’t have the experience with these.

What is the circumference of the light spread on cobs like? I know it gets bigger with height.

KD mentioned the timbers and those are some nice lights for sure.

I think I’m going to do 2 x Timber 2CS 200w with a mix of staggered corner 3k, 3.5k, and 2 x centered vero29 v7s in 1750k.

This way I can adjust the height of the fixture that will be over the plants in weeks 1-5 vs the fixture over weeks 6-10.

The fifth center vero hopefully overlaps the beam spread so there is less or no dead spot. It’s a single 100w that should have better penetration.

I also like that the 5 bulb config allows me to do a more even mix of different spectrum vs say a single Model 4VL.

So there you have it... cobs... to QBs... to whatever brands... back to cobs...

600watts total Between 2 x 300w fixtures with separate dimmers for the V7s and Crees. The whole thing dimmed down to cut back the draw and ease up on the drivers/diodes/heat. Total insanity and waste for this cab? Yes. But I don’t plan to be stuck in this cab forever and it will be nice to have these ready to go for a bigger set up

And by then I’m sure the tech will be something even better, but I’ll cross that bridge when I get there. Or supplement in some new tech in addition to this.

Going to see what a quote will be for a custom order from timber with this rig layout.

Otherwise I’ll do it with kits and 80/20inc extrusions. F
 

Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
Yeah they will all work.. some LEDs you have to have a lot closer others produce decent umol at a greater distance than others.. some of the cheaper bulbs will lose efficiency quicker than others but will grow great pot until then whilst they put out decent PAR.

Cobs don't spread light that brilliantly as it's just a single point of light, you practically want one per plant imo..

The QBs are impressive in their output..

I'd really advise buying a PAR meter. The hydrofarm one is perfectly fine. I pissed around for too long without one and wish I'd had that knowledge..
 

Ichabod Crane

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks for the knowledge Ichabod. (And everyone who has contributed to helping me learn more.

That’s exactly the info I had zero idea about in how to compare. All these little tid bits you guys drop helps point me into more research to get a better understanding.

I’m still a bit lost in the way you guys compare the leds strength/effectiveness. The whole umol thing and efficacy measures. Trying to get informed


Being that I’m planning to perpetual SOG, the varried heights from left to right might be an issue.

This is where I just don’t have the experience with these.

What is the circumference of the light spread on cobs like? I know it gets bigger with height.

So there you have it... cobs... to QBs... to whatever brands... back to cobs...

It is easy to determine which fixture is better than another. Simple use the PPF rating per watts the fixture uses. The higher the PPF per watt the better the fixture at producing light for the power used.

You will have to decide if the cost per PPF is worth the extra the fixture might cost. If the more efficientfixture cost less than there is no real choice. Take the cheaper one.

Now for determining how big a area a given light might cover you need to look at the PPF rating of the light. Lets look at a light that has 800 PPF. This light will cover a meter of flower area nicely if you are not running CO2. For CO2 it is better to have about 1000 PPFD. With out CO2 veg is good at about 500 PPFD.

So lets say you want to know how much area that 800 PPF light would cover at 1000 PPFD. We can use a formula like this to find out.

(800/1000)x10.75=8.6

What this is is the 800 PPF divided by the desired light density of 1000 PPFD multiplied by 10.75 which gives a area of 8.6 square feet. So the coverage would be 8.6 square feet at 1000 PPFD.

The 10.75 is how many square feet are in one square meter. If you are using the metric system just skip the multiplication by 10.75 and you get .80 which means your coverage area is 80% of a meter.

You can do the same to get the cover for veg of 500 PPFD. Here is how to do that.

(800/500)x10.75=17.2

So you would be able to cover about 17.2 square feet.

I got the PPFD numbers off this chart.

 

Elephunk

Member
Lost in SOG,

What do your readings look like when you dim down? Or is your light strip set up (great thread btw) not able to dim?

I feel like... I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and hope I choose right.

I hear what you're saying about the COBs being more direct light under just the bulb.

Where do you guys find beam angle/ spread specs for these? Or do you just contact the companies and ask if they have the study?

I'm flying on the idea (not 100% if this is true) that the COB led puts out a tighter beam, but has better light penetration through the canopy. Where the QBs have a much wider beam angle and spread the light more effectively both in the diode itself and the manner it is laid out on the board.

I hope I'm thinking about these two correctly.

If so that means the COBs should be mounted higher so the beam angle widens in circumference as much as possible to get a more even distribution. Or... you hang a bunch of these and that essentially kills the heat/ wattage efficiency.

So for my situation there is a balance of all to be had.

If I ran an overkill light scenario using timber 25CS like I had said I would absolutely have to keep the lights dimmed. So this improves the draw wattage, heat (I think), and I was hoping there would still be such a huge amount of light that the dimming wouldn't be an issue.

The 5 bulb lay out spreads the Cobs better over the surface area and allows for individual adjustment over the varied stage growth canopy.

I can see getting into an area of diminishing returns with this set up and not really taking advantage of the full investment having to dim down. So there is something to be said about that for sure.



I might rethink my entire approach and ditch the SOG method. If I go perpetual scrog running 4 scrog buckets, I would have 2 clones filling the screen in a much larger veg cab, and cycle out 1 scrog bucket every 4- 4.5 weeks.

Advantage here I suppose is the larger bucket size, even canopy suited to QBs, solid yeilds, lower plant numbers.

Downside is time spent training, need for a veg cab that can hold bonsai moms, cloner, 2 vegging scrog buckets.

I'll have to figure out if I can make the perpetual scrog route work. I don't mind more wait time when each plant will produce more at one time. Need to figure out where my utility closet/exhaust set up would go though.
 

Elephunk

Member
Ichabod you rock dude!

Taking this to all the sites and jotting down their numbers to compare and take a hard look at.

I could see the QBs with some supplemental absolutely killing it with a scrog set up. The more I mull this over and process the more I'm thinking I need to ditch the SOG and go for perpetual scrog for the even canopy. Also drops my plant numbers.

Not totally decided on that, but it's creeping more and more into my brain with all these variables.

SOG might work well, but I don't want to end up with golf balls and wide flower spacing. This has a lot to do with the strain of course, but light spectrums and penetration definitely play a roll.

But what do I know, a cob or qb set up might both do just fine and yield solid bud sticks and all this thinking doesn't matter.
 

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