Distinguished and Nurtured Kind

moses wellfleet said:

On the subject of diversity of inputs. I have been building up my soil with entomopathogenic fungi to combat root aphids etc. Beauveria bassiana, metarhizium, amongst others. I was advised to add 2ml per liter molasses when I dosed. I enquired with the manufacturer if I could use fish hydrolysate to do the same job? They said no because b. Bassiana is saprophytic, it lives off dead and decaying plant matter.

So my point is if you rely on blood meal and seabird guano for your nitrogen input and overlook alfalfa meal you may be missing out on some of the hidden benefits of the alfalfa meal beyond the nitrogen it provides. So they told me that the fresher alfalfa is an excellent addition for the saprophytic fungi, as compost is already well into the process of decay. Good to provide matter that is full spectrum!

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Harley Smith said:

Nitrate-N is a “luxury” element. In other words, if you give your plants extra nitrate, the plant will take it up, whether the plant needs it or not! Over 30% of the energy of photosynthesis is burned just to take up nitrates. So if you add too much nitrate nitrogen, the plant burns up its energy reserves for more top growth, but root growth is inhibited. The plants may look lush and dark green, but the plant will be weakened. Plants supplied with excess nitrates will produce large cells with thin cell walls, making them more susceptible to stress and disease, and excessive nitrates can delay or even prevent flowering! Stored nitrates in plant tissues can also give rise to off-flavors, and they are generally considered unhealthy. In fact, in Europe if nitrate levels are too high in the plant tissue, the produce will lose its organic certification, even if all-natural fertilizers are used.

A little ammonium-nitrogen is a quick fix. Plants will take up the ammonium ions immediately, without accumulating excess nitrates in the process. Ammonium - nitrogen can also be used as a light foliar feed to quickly green up the plant. Professional growers manipulate the ammonium:nitrate ratios of the nutrient solution to maximize quality and yield. For example, a “hard water” nutrient formula will have a higher ammonium to nitrate ratio to help stabilize pH. The ammonium ion is positively charged. So as the plant takes up ammonium ions, it exchanges positively-charged H+ ions from the roots. This tends to neutralize excess bicarbonate ions in well water and help drive the pH down. On the other hand, the nitrate ion is negatively charged. So as the plant takes up nitrates, it exudes negatively-charged bicarbonate or OH- ions from the roots, tending to drive the pH up. Therefore, increasing the ammonium to nitrate ratio can help stabilize pH problems in well water.

Unlike nitrate nitrogen, ammonium nitrogen is assimilated directly by the roots for immediate use by the plant, without burning up excess carbohydrates in the process. Under high light and CO2 conditions, extra ammonium ions can be very beneficial. If carbon dioxide is supplemented to levels above 750 ppm, plants will preferentially take up carbon molecules over nitrate-N, limiting protein production. If more of the nitrogen is provided in the ammonium form, however, the plant can utilize it directly for increased protein production under high CO2 and light conditions. Just don’t overdo it! Ammonium nitrogen can become toxic to plants at even modest levels, producing soft, “rank” growth, especially in cool, low-light conditions."

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slownickel said:

Nitrate pushes veg. Why? Because nitrates allow the plant to pick up 4 Ca for ever 2 K. Ammonia or organic nitrogen for that matter, is the signal for the plant to flower, as the plant can only pick up 2 Ca for every 2 K. A definite signal for the plant to "mature" and flower.

Been practicing that concept for years on melons to set two good harvests! Works great!

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Harley Smith said:

Phosphorus is the energy element, essential to the chemistry of life. It is part of a molecule called ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) that serves as the energy currency of plants. Energy from photosynthesis and respiration is temporarily stored in the high-energy phosphate bonds. When the phosphate bonds are broken, energy is released to activate a series of chemical reactions in plants.

If a plant doesn’t receive adequate phosphorus, its energy needs can’t be fully met. The plant’s new growth will be stunted, both at the roots and at the shoots, and as phosphorus deficiency worsens, the plant will eventually shut down and die. An adequate amount of phosphorus is required throughout the entire life cycle of a plant, and lack of available phosphorus is often the limiting factor for plant growth.

Phosphorus is not very mobile in soil. It is easily adsorbed or locked up with other minerals, making it unavailable to plants. Very little plant-available phosphorus is actually dissolved in the soil solution. In fact, adsorbed phosphates on soil particles are often hundreds to thousands of times greater than phosphates in the soil solution. As a plant takes up the phosphates from the soil solution, the adsorbed phosphates slowly take their place, but they are sometimes not fast enough to meet the energy needs of the plants. Plants must have a steady supply of phosphorus from seed to harvest.

In nature, mycorrhizal fungi help plants take up phosphorus. The fungi penetrate root cells and send out hyphae (thread-like structures), seeking out water and precious phosphorus in the surrounding soil and organic matter. The fungi exude enzymes and organic acids to make the phosphorus soluble, then feed it to the roots of the plant.

In exchange, the plant exudes sugars to feed the mycorrhizal fungal. Usually, it’s a good trade. In fact, if there is a phosphorus deficiency in the soil, plants will exude signal molecules to attract mycorrhizal fungi. On the other hand, if there is plenty of water-soluble phosphorus, plants will exude enzymes to repel mycorrhizal fungi, treating them as a pathogen.

Organic gardeners using relatively insoluble forms of phosphorus such as bone meal and rock phosphate should consider inoculating roots with mycorrhizal fungi. But for even better results, adding phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria along with the mycorrhizae is a powerful combination.

The beneficial bacteria hitch a ride on the fungal strands and swim to places in the soil solution the fungi can’t reach. The bacteria then exude enzymes to release phosphorus from the surrounding soil and organic matter and make it more available to the mycorrhizae. Phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria feed the fungi, and the fungi feed the plants.

One of the benefits of hydroponics is the availability of water-soluble phosphorus. Even so, the phosphates must be kept separate from calcium ions in concentrated form. That’s why hydroponic nutrients often come in two-part and three-part formulas. All of the calcium is in one bottle, and all of the phosphates are in the other bottle.

If the two were combined in concentrated form, the calcium would react with the phosphates to form calcium phosphate, which is 95% insoluble. Both the calcium and the phosphates would lock up, precipitate out of solution and become unavailable to the plants. But once diluted in enough water, the calcium and phosphates remain soluble in solution to be easily absorbed.

Mono-ammonium phosphate (MAP), a highly water-soluble form of phosphorus, is often included in starter fertilizers used by commercial growers. The additional phosphorus energizes the rooting process, and the ammonium is quickly assimilated through the developing roots to produce growth hormones and enzymes.

Adding a little extra phosphorus during the first 2-3 weeks of vegetative growth can have a dramatic effect on root strike and the establishment of plants. Lab tests have shown up to a 20% increase in root mass with nutrient formulas supplemented with a moderate increase of MAP during the early vegetative growth stage.

Another key stage for phosphorus application is during the fruiting and flowering stage. Most hydroponic bloom formulas provide phosphorus in the form of mono-potassium phosphate, providing adequate phosphorus throughout this phase. But sometimes plants need a boost. For example, during the transition from grow to bloom, a great deal of energy is diverted to flower production, and the plant may not be able to keep up with the extra energy demand. A little supplemental phosphorus during the early flowering stage can give a plant the energy boost it needs, promoting earlier flowering and more flowering sites.

During heavy fruit and flower production, plants continue to require higher levels of phosphorus to help provide energy for the developing fruit, but higher levels of potassium are also important for increased carbohydrate metabolism. That’s why there are many P-K boost formulas on the market.

Generally speaking, phosphorus and potassium are both important during the fruiting and flowering stage, but increased phosphorus is particularly beneficial during the early flowering stage, while increased potassium is particularly beneficial during heavy fruiting and flowering. If you want to fine-tune the nutritional needs of your plants, it’s best to spoon-feed phosphorus and potassium separately whenever possible.

Many hydroponic growers use phosphoric acid to lower the pH of their nutrient solution, but since phosphoric acid is actually a phosphorus fertilizer, it can quickly build up to toxic levels if too much is used. Moderation is the key. Phosphorus additives are beneficial when they are used in the correct amounts at the correct times. Learn to spoon-feed your crops to give them exactly what they need when they need it. A little extra phosphorus can energize the rooting process and stimulate the flowering process, but too much at the wrong time can have adverse effects. Manage your phosphorus fertilizers wisely and your plants will reward you with heavy yields of vibrant flowers and tasty fruits.

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Harley Smith said:

During heavy fruiting and flowering, plants can deplete the potassium in the root zone very quickly, sometimes in as little as three or four days! Potassium is a catalyst for carbohydrate metabolism. So if your plants don’t get the potassium that they need, sugar production slows down and your plants have a hard time storing up the energy that they need for fruit and flower development. Plant growth stalls, and the quality of fruits and flowers declines. So to keep the quality of your fruits and flowers high, potassium supplements can make a big difference.

Phosphorus is especially beneficial at the beginning of the flowering stage since phosphorus provides energy for earlier flowering and the production of more flowering sites. Potassium, on the other hand, is best during heavy fruiting and flowering. For example, if tomato plants begin to develop a potassium deficiency, the fruit will become watery with low sugar content and poor shelf life. That’s why commercial hydroponic tomato growers often use potassium sulfate as a boost to their nutrient formula during the fruiting and flowering stage. Maintaining high potassium to nitrate ratios promote fruit and flower quality, with higher sugar content, better shelf life and improved flavors.

If you use an organic bloom stimulant, the need for potassium supplements is even more important. In 2007, I had the privilege of visiting a prestigious research greenhouse in Belgium where they were performing scientific trials on organic bloom stimulants. They were growing sweet peppers in the trial, with and without bio-stimulants. Even the control plants were impressive. The untreated sweet pepper plants were 12-feet tall and loaded with peppers! The treated plants in the next row were even more productive. Half way through the trial the plants treated with organic bloom stimulants had already achieved a 10% increase in yield, and the numbers were continuing to rise. Not only were there more fruit and flowers, but the fruit was heavier and more fully developed.

There was a catch, however. As the pepper plants were putting on more weight with fruits and flowers, the potassium was being pulled out of the nutrient solution very quickly. Every week the scientists took a nutrient solution sample for testing and charted the amount of every mineral in the nutrient solution. As production increased, potassium levels decreased, while most of the other minerals remained relatively unchanged. Unfortunately, the scientists weren’t allowed to add extra potassium to the experiment. A controlled experiment can only have one variable. If they had added more potassium to the nutrient solution, it would have been impossible to know for sure if the increased yield was a result of the bio-stimulants or the extra potassium. So to keep the results clear, only the bio-stimulants were added in the experiment, even though potassium was sure to become the limiting factor. A 10% increase in yield is significant, but I’ve often wondered how much more the plants could have produced if the researchers would have been allowed to combine bloom stimulants with just the right amount of supplemental potassium.

Without question, if you want to push your plants to reach their true genetic potential, always add potassium supplements to your feeding schedule during heavy fruiting and flowering. But how do you know which potassium supplements work the best? A targeted potassium supplement may be a better choice to help your plants reach their peak of fruit and flower production. Near the end of flowering, plants don’t need additional nitrogen or phosphorus in the feeding schedule. So instead of continuing to give your plants supplements derived from potassium nitrate or mono-potassium phosphate, try a potassium supplement derived from potassium sulfate, instead. Potassium sulfate provides the potassium boost that plants need, without any additional nitrates or phosphates. The sulfur in potassium sulfate is an added bonus, since sulfur compounds help “turn on” flowering genes in the plant and contributes to flavors and aromas.

In plant nutrition, it’s all about balance. Ideally, we should give the plant only what it needs, when it needs it. If you overdo it and give your plants more potassium than they need, it could cause a deficiency in other nutrients, especially calcium and magnesium. So how do you know how much is too much? Your plants will tell you. For example, potassium toxicity commonly shows up as a magnesium deficiency. Potassium and magnesium ions can compete with one another for uptake by the plant. So if you use too much potassium, magnesium deficiency symptoms may start to appear. Magnesium deficiency shows up in the older growth near the bottom of the plant as interveinal chlorosis. In other words, the veins of the lower leaves stay green, but the tissue between the veins will start to turn yellow. So if you start to see symptoms of magnesium deficiency, back off on your potassium supplements a little. And don’t worry; correcting a magnesium deficiency is easy. Simply add a little cal/mag to your nutrient solution or spray a mild solution of Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) on the bottom leaves of your plants. The leaves will green up in a matter of days. So don’t be afraid of using a generous dose of potassium supplements during flowering; just use them as directed for best results.

It’s always best to use the purest, most water-soluble forms of potassium you can find. Generally speaking, try to stay away from “agricultural grade” potassium supplements if you can. They often use a chemical extraction process and may have unacceptable levels of impurities. The best natural forms of potassium sulfate supplements are “soluble fines”, and some even qualify for OMRI certification for organic gardening. The bottom line is, “Potassium is the health element”. If you want healthier plants with higher-quality flowers and sweeter fruit, potassium is the key. As the summer progresses and your plants begin to fill in with fruits and flowers, spoon-feeding your garden with potassium supplements will keep your garden growing strong!

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slownickel said:

If one understands the cycles, pushes the cycles, it is pretty amazing how far we go and still get amazing quality and at the same time increasing yields. Important to have both.

High K at the end of the cycle(s) matures up everything. Which at the end of flower means moving everything up to the flower.

I insist that folks stay a week ahead of what they plan on doing, one week early. So if the program is to mature up and I have enough Ca to cover my bet, I will push 13 gr of K sulfate per gallon on ONE PLANT, one week ahead of time. If I see positive response, the plant has spoken. We're good to go.

This can be confirmed with a refractometer.

This is all about nutrient density. Knowing when to push and knowing when to pull.

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jidoka said:

Slow...so k2so4 definitely increases terpene levels compared to mkp when used this way, yea?

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slownickel said:

Most definitely terp increase with the KS.

Most definitely! On lots of crops you can push maturity, but you better have everything right if you push!

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Harley Smith said:

Biogenic silica from volcanic sources does not have sharp edges. In fact, the biogenic silica particles are very smooth and porous, with a fine matrix of tiny holes that can actually filter water as it passes through them. As the water flows through the particles, mineral ions adhere to silica surfaces, allowing them to be released to plant roots on demand. So biogenic silica is not just a great source of plant-available silica, it is a reservoir for other important nutrients, actually making trace elements more available to the plant instead of locking them up!

Since biogenic silica comes from a natural source, it is not 100% water soluble. It is usually provided as a dry powder with the consistency of talcum powder. When added to water, about 25-30% of the silica dissolves into various forms of silicic acid and becomes immediately available to the plant. The rest of the silica is “flowable”, becoming trapped in the root zone to provide a slow-release form of silica and other beneficial minerals. The flowable particles are small enough that they won’t clog emitters, but they must be stirred up to keep them suspended in water. If they are not stirred, some of the fine particles will settle out of solution in a few hours.

Silica is great for plants, but the greatest benefit of biogenic silica is its effect on plant-growth-promoting bacteria in the root zone. Beneficial bacteria thrive at neutral pH, so biogenic silica makes a perfect home for bacteria that colonize the root zone. In fact, biogenic silica is actually one of the best “carriers” for microbial blends used to inoculate plant roots. As the fine particles of silica embed themselves in the root zone, the microbes use the particles as launching stations to the developing roots. In addition, the trace elements that adsorb to the surfaces of the silica particles are readily available to microbes, speeding up their metabolism and providing a biological bridge to the roots. Along with the microbial-enhanced silicon and trace elements, microorganisms provide vitamins, enzymes and growth hormones that stimulate root development and provide a nutritious soup of natural plant protection agents. Therefore, plant-growth-promoting bacteria in the root zone, in conjunction with the biogenic silica, greatly enhance the plant’s natural resistance to stress and disease.

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dank.frank said:

@Ibechillin - Without going down the rabbit hole, I'll just say, if you need to apply anything via foliar, then the soil wasn't right to begin with.



dank.Frank

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slownickel said:

The idea of a super soil is just that, an idea. I would argue, not a good one.

This crop goes through cycles. The cycle needs to start with high Ca and adequate (not high) K. As you go further in to veg, you raise K to mature the roots and bulk up. Going into flower, Ca needs to be raised quickly again and K at the same time ramping up.

No way to run cycles in a super soil. Every one that I have taken an analysis from had terribly high K and Mg, no where near enough Ca.

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ReikoX said:

Subcool even said his super soil isn't a great idea recently on GrowTube. He is now amending soil based on soil tests.

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slownickel said:

Folks evolve! Thank God! No substitute for well applied good science. Otherwise it is called GUESSING!

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dank.frank said:

What plants need may differ, but how that is taken from the soil, as long as it is present, is completely controlled by the individual plant.

Roots exudates control the bacteria and in turn control what populations exist and what is being converted from raw form to ionic form. If it is present in the soil, then the plant will be able to sequester what it needs, when it needs it, and in what quantities.

A mix shouldn't have to be different at all for different strains or for that matter different species of plants as long as they prefer the same general pH ranges.



dank.Frank

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dank.frank said:

Every soil has living micro-biology in it...even the stuff you go dig out of your front yard. While it may be common practice to supplement these bacteria with specific species for the purpose of taking advantage of scientific data and research, it does not negate or diminish the fact that ALL soils, to some extent, contain living elements.

Cannabis growers are honestly some of the most advanced organic gardeners on the planet. Truly - we are more passionate and extreme in our methodologies than any other type of general agriculture. I think this is a great thing because it is a clear example of how much effort we have exerted in order to learn and produce the best.

I would call any structured soil...one that is custom designed and specifically amended and contains so many various individual components, a bit of an anomaly to what MOST people would consider "organic". Do realize, I'm not talking about the various amendments themselves, but rather the various components that make our basic planting media. It's not the same as "soil" as it is spoken of in the classical sense.

Diversity of amendments is for the purpose of supporting diversity within the bacterial and fungal communities...not necessarily for providing short term/long term N-P-K. It goes back to that old adage of feeding the soil and not the plant.

I like organics because it forces me to remove myself from the equation and to simply allow nature to take over and do what it does.

Just stop and consider how many places do trees or grass or flowers grow that are never specifically "cultivated"...lol...that is the result of a living, self-fluctuating, self-controlled, independent ecosystem.

Never forget to realize that science is merely trying to explain the observations we see within the natural world. There are millions of things we observe that we are trying to still understand and there is much to be learned...or rather, interpreted from observation into a functional, conversational knowledge.

Don't get stuck on branding and fail to realize that simply because you aren't marching to the beat of the same drum, that your soil or "mix" is not living, to some extent or various degree.

BUT - STILL - it does not take multiple mixes to properly grow different cultivars. In hydro, people talk of dialing in the plant. In organic soil, we talk of properly amending the soil so the plant can be in control and dial itself. If the plant isn't performing to expectations, it's because it isn't being pumped full of chemical steroids to make it look or behave a specific way...and when a plant under performs in organic soil, we don't try to find a new magic bottle to fix the problem, we simply cull the garbage and sprout more seed.

dank.Frank

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dank.frank said:

Find out what analytical method they are using. Different methods use different chemicals / different strengths of acids to break down the different components of the soil in order get accurate read outs from the lab equipment.

Ask the lab if their saturated media extract method includes readings for CEC and % Humic Mater. Weight/Volume ratio and also exchangeable acidity. You want to know base saturation % as well, because it tells you what percentage of the CEC is actually bound to various cations.

It all depends on the lab and what information they include with the various analytical methods. Some labs include more than others, even for the same process.

Here is something important to KNOW about soil testing though. Cannabis, unlike other agricultural commodities does not have a set nutritional value for the lab to say whether your data is above or below an established threshold. In part, you have to know exactly what is in your base soil, and after a grow cycle, need to have it analyzed again to create a data set for yourself that tells you how much of each element is being removed from the soil in a single crop cycle. With that information, you can begin to establish a set of parameters you feel should be met within your soil.



dank.Frank

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slownickel said:

Folks evolve! Thank God! No substitute for well applied good science. Otherwise it is called GUESSING!

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Ibechillin said:

No intention of starting an argument, not a right or wrong way to do things. Were all working towards the same goal from different sides of the question is all the way I see it. Just sharing where Im at currently in my understanding, utilize what you agree with and shitcan what you disagree with idgaf lol.

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