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How much does a cannabis plant change with maturity?

One Love 731

One Love 731

Senior Member
Veteran
Ive noticed many plants seem to change structure, smell and even potency as they get older. The Lime Warp is a great example. When she was new she was a PITA, 10+ weeker with a tone of fox tailing anywhere the light was close never really achieving the dense nugs we now know. After a year or so and these days shes a simple to grow girl that behaves and gives the same expected experience every time.

Every time I bring a new cut into the garden I try to run her at least 3 times before deciding if she has a permanent place in the garden. Is this maturity or simply a plant acclimating to a new environment, food, etc?

The reason for current interest is I've been thinking about seed runs again and want to be efficient as I get were I'm going without tossing gems along the way.

Thanks for any help in advance. Peace, pot and karma. 1:ying:
 
SeedsOfFreedom

SeedsOfFreedom

Member
Veteran
I have never seen plants change very much if grown in similar settings. I always thought any differences where because of the environment more than anything.

I have noticed plants flowered before reaching maturity (alternate nodes, showing preflowers) sometime aren't the same. I think it is best to veg until plants are mature and ready for flower. Then I think clones should be nearly same every time, if the environment is nearly the same.

I have far from seen it all, and would love to hear if anyone has experienced large changes in clones over time, but it does sounds a bit like the "genetic drift" myth about clones changing with time and clones of clones. I believe this had been proved as a myth and nothing else.
 
One Love 731

One Love 731

Senior Member
Veteran
It could very possibly be as you say, getting a cut dialed in.

as far as clone from a clone, I've never kept moms, just veg until ready to flower then take a clone. Clone from a clone from a clone and so on.

ya hear all the time about cut's loosing their vigor. Older OG's have this stigma a lot. Personally I feel if ya take the time to bring a cut back to premium health, take cuts and keep healthy until flower theoretically should be as good as the first run.

I do grow everything very similar though and some seem they need to get used to my style and environment before they thrive or age is part of the equation? 1:ying:
 
S

snakewoodssh

New member
I have noted that my clones change little if at all. I learn what they like and notice the mood swings smooth out as I go along. I think it is me learning the strain rather than the strain doing anything but staying alive as we go. I have a cut I recieved 16 years ago. aside from annual renewal of the mother,no problems and no changes. Maybe the strains you work with DO change over time. Keep copious notes on nutes and methods and maybe there is something to your observations.
 
EclipseFour20

EclipseFour20

aka "Doc"
Veteran
Here are some things to ponder--where "stress memories" are transferred to subsequent generations--from my post in this thread--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=272897

"
AlterEgo860 said:
im agreeing with this guy.. ive had a few mothers that are prob like the 100th cut generation. with no variation. if anything ive dialed it in and its better then ever..

I think that diseases .. bugs.. and not transplanting enough cause plants to get shitty..
Click to expand...

I used to think that plants maintained "100% genetic purity" and each successive generation of root cuttings (aka clones) would be the "exact replication" of it's mother (original source).

Well--let me introduce an interesting "complication" to think about--by quoting two posts from this thread--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5982993#post5982993

EclipseFour20 said:
In theory, a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone....(times 100 generations) should be equal in all respects to the original donor/"seed-plant"...of course that assumes that all generations will experience identical environments. Every year my environment changes...as does most of ours.

As growers, we respond to Root Aphids, Spider Mites, Broad Mites, Fungus Gnats, etc with pesticides (some more excessive than others), remedies and magic potions to trick the plant to activate its Systemic Acquired Resistance (SAR). The plant's SAR response (either induced by nature or from magic potion) has an effect on future generations of clones...which means, "all clones are not equal".

These handful of abstracts should quash any thoughts that clones of different generations remain "genetically pure". Examining how SAR effects subsequent generations is easy to understand...without getting into the scientific details of genetics.

Next-generation systemic acquired resistance--http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22147520
Herbivory in the previous generation primes plants for enhanced insect resistance--http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22209873
Descendants of primed Arabidopsis plants exhibit resistance to biotic stress--http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22209872

If SAR response of one generation can effect subsequent generations--then what other things are effected?...Potency? We don't know.

Cheers!

BTW...I do not discriminate, as I make mamas from seeds and from cuttings/clones.
Click to expand...

EclipseFour20 said:
Only--

The studies I cited concluded things a bit differently. The time frame was rather instant since a plant's "stress memories" were transferred to subsequent generations.

Most of us are aware of the plant's Systemic Acquired Resistance and how it can be our friend. So I researched this question, "if a mother plant's SAR is activated...then do the SAR attributes transfer to the new cutting/clone?" The answer I found is YES.

This transgenerational SAR was sustained over one stress-free generation, indicating an epigenetic basis of the phenomenon. (1st doc)

Here, we show that induced resistance was associated with transgenerational priming of jasmonic acid-dependent defense responses in both species, caused caterpillars to grow up to 50% smaller than on control plants, and persisted for two generations in Arabidopsis. (2nd doc )

When transgenerationally primed plants were subjected to an additional priming treatment, their descendants displayed an even stronger primed phenotype, suggesting that plants can inherit a sensitization for the priming phenomenon. (3rd doc)


So if SAR attributes are transferred (environment) then what other attributes are transferred from donor plant to clone? Probably more than we suspect...is my guess.

I am not a geneticist but I kinda understand the following conclusion:

Stress-induced changes in histone variants, histone N-tail modifications, and DNA methylation have been shown to regulate stress-responsive gene expression and plant development under stress. Transient chromatin modifications mediate acclimation response. Heritable, epigenetic modifications may provide within-generation and transgenerational stress memory (Figure 1). It is unclear how much of the stress-induced histone and DNA modification changes that have been observed to date may be epigenetic in nature because little is known about their mitotic or meiotic heritability. Abiotic stress-induced epigenetic changes might have an adaptive advantage. However, stress memory could have a negative impact on crop yield by preventing the plant from growing to its full potential. Thus, stress memory has implications for the use of seeds from stressed crop to raise ensuing crops by the farmers, breeding for stress environments and in situ conservation of plant species. Recent progress in understanding DNA methylation and demethylation, histone modifications, small RNAs and in developing powerful and versatile tools to study these epigenetic processes makes it possible to critically analyze epigenetic stress memory and harness it for crop management and improvement.

Source: Conclusion paragraph--http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139470/

It appears, that some "stress memories" kinda have a life of their own.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

So...since SAR can be induced by many things--simple things like adding aspirin to the water, compost tea foliar applications...and in more complex concoctions like organic fungicides/insecticides.

So...if SAR triggers (altered DNA) can be transferred to subsequent generations (as proven above--in both seed and "clone" form), then what other things are transferred? Ergo...it seems that argument that "clones maintain genetic purity" is not absolute--and the 100th generation specimen will not be "exactly the same" as the original donor (mama of the 1st generation clone). Close, similar--but not exactly, and certainly not "pure".

I know, I know....who am I to believe? Simple "facts" or my lying eyes?...LOL. I think science trumps my "lying eyes"--people smarter than me have established that: subsequent generations (both seed and clone varieties) contain genetic attributes that are BOTH "inherited" (like original mama's DNA) and "acquired" (like environmental "stress memories").

Complications, what to do?....I run seed lines every so often. Why?..."new blood" and "phenos". Hard to run the next hot $train if you run the same old gear and never change/experiement, besides--the best phenos I discovered always came from seedlines...not one pheno ever came from a bunch of clones I clipped from the same mama (potential mamas....yes, but never a "pheno"-like when a desirable recessive trait becomes dominant).

Cheers!"

So I am thinking nothing stays the same..not even a plant.
 
trichrider

trichrider

Kiss My Ring
Veteran
heya bro!
my observation is that clones can and will degrade.
but logic contradicts.

when you take a cutting for a clone, where on the plant is it taken from?

ime, cuttings are taken from lower branches (because they don't amount to much after stretch) ...
these branches are not optimal for clones...they no longer receive best light and apical dominance dictates hormones and cytokines bypass lower shoots. so they are not the healthiest candidates for continuing a line.

i've found environment will alter different phenotypes to homogeneity...making them taste/smell very similar to one another.

i use seed and only clone superior examples for testing and reproducing.

Have a wonderful holiday my brother...
 
aridbud

aridbud

automeister
ICMag Donor
Veteran
trichrider said:
heya bro!
my observation is that clones can and will degrade.
but logic contradicts.

when you take a cutting for a clone, where on the plant is it taken from?

ime, cuttings are taken from lower branches (because they don't amount to much after stretch) ...
these branches are not optimal for clones...they no longer receive best light and apical dominance dictates hormones and cytokines bypass lower shoots. so they are not the healthiest candidates for continuing a line.

i've found environment will alter different phenotypes to homogeneity...making them taste/smell very similar to one another.

i use seed and only clone superior examples for testing and reproducing.

Have a wonderful holiday my brother...
Click to expand...

Sage info and experience!

i've found environment will alter different phenotypes to homogeneity...making them taste/smell very similar to one another.

Ditto your info. Prefer to take clones when I cloned using upper areas of plant.
 
stoned-trout

stoned-trout

if it smells like fish
Veteran
when I top plants I use them for clones... I take big healthy clones..i have made clones of clones for 7 years straight before with no change....yeehaw..I have flowered clones early off a small plant that were indeed not as good as the next run with the next older batch tho...hmmmm
 
Phaeton

Phaeton

Speed of Dark
Veteran
When a seed sprouts the branches grow in pairs, one on each side of the trunk. This is why topping doubles the colas.
As the plant matures the branches begin to come out on alternate sides. This does not affect topping as the all the upper branches are paired.

Clones taken from young plants continue this pairing of branches.
As the plant ages the clones start having the alternating branches right from the beginning. Topping these plants merely result in the uppermost branch becoming the new cola, no doubling.

After about three generations all the clones have alternate branches and are stable from that point on.
I personally kept a Northern Lights clone from 1995 until 2007 and the last plant was the same as the third.
 
Bwanabud

Bwanabud

Active member
If the plants are kept healthy and stress free, pheno should remain the same...I have strains that are 7 years old, will no ill effects on growth, potency, etc...
 
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