Clone only strains - one in a million?

Cola Candy · Dec 2, 2011

A lot of clone-only strains, such as Blues and Exodus Cheese are just particular phenotypes of a strain, Skunk #1 that stand out from the rest. If you were to grow a pack of the version of Skunk #1 they came from, you probably wouldn't get a similar phenotype showing up that would be worth keeping and passing around to fellow growers. However, like a group of monkeys typing out the works of Shakespear, I would imagine growing out enough packs of the seeds would eventually yield a phenotype that rivals these legendary strains in flavour, yield, stink etc.

So, what I want to know is how many individuals in a population of a given strain would you normally expect to have to grow out on average to find such an unusual strain? I would guess it takes a certain combination of alleles in a genotype to express the right pheno you're after in a good, constant environment and that like a game of bingo this combination will probably show with high enough number of roles of the genetic dice.

I really would love to find such a killer phenotype but don't know where to start. Am I looking at say 200 individuals? Would I be more or less likely to find such a phenotype in the F1 or F2 generation? There is more variation in the F2 cross, but also more 'noise', in that the good traits will be drowned out by a lot of undesirable ones i.e. licorice allsorts.

Phillthy · Dec 2, 2011

well take strains like sour d or any of the chem crosses. it is easy to find a keeper in a few seeds. as far as freak phenos from mediocre genes... they can be found although with less frequency as when working with top shelf genetics already.

btw blues kicks ass.

mack 10 · Dec 2, 2011

I second that motion, Blues is tip top.

redneck shogun · Dec 2, 2011

I'll offer my limited 2 cents, I only started making f2's about 2 years ago from a particular indica/sativa hybrid that were chosen probably about 2 generations removed from exceptional individuals. The following statements pertain to the females because I have culled all males on sight. The females I have grown over this period seem to come out about 50% similar and about 25% leaning to the mother and 25% leaning to the father. Haven't yet found a special smoke in the 50% that favor both somewhat evenly. The other half is where the fun has been. I find an odd ball in that other half at a ratio of about 1:5. What I mean in that is that I find a trait that I haven't seen before. This trait could be related to odor, color, potency, effect, or structure. I think you can find gems in whatever stock but starting with exceptional individuals will cut down your time searching because desirable traits may be apparent much more often and maybe you will find that keeper in that 50% similar group instead of having to search for the oddball.

mowood3479 · Dec 2, 2014

TheCleanGame · Dec 2, 2014

How many packs?

Depends completely on how stable the genetics have been bred by the breeder.

As stated above you can see that different strains have different ratios of "Like the Parents" and "like the parents of the parents" in the phenotype expressions. The more stable the strain, the higher the percentage of the seeds coming out like the desired phenotype.

So... the more stable the strain is the more 'chosen phenotype' plants you'll have to choose from when looking for yield/rooting/cannabinoid-profile markers that match what you want. The one that is super healthy, roots fastest and is a superb representation of the desired phenotype often becomes an 'elite' cut of that strain.

hyb.0 · Dec 4, 2014

Clone only plants are prevalent today because one can't properly stabilize drug cannabis with 1:1 matings. Cannabis is an open-pollinated outcrosser and needs to be bred by population breedings to become stable for selected phenotypes. This is done through recurrent selection strategies, using populations, not individuals. Prohibition-era amateur breeding methods will never create a phenotype-stable variety. Even though the seeds of today are called strains, they are really just families derived from 1:1 matings. A strain (or a true F1 hyb.) will have a specific and consistent genotype for the selected traits.

Thus, there are no a stable cannabis varieties/strains, except ones Nature has produced(via populations and recurrent selection). The important traits like potency, flavors/aromatics, height, maturity, hardiness, etc.. are all polygenic and cannot be recovered and stabilized in 1:1 matings.

This problem is further exacerbated today by the next breeder in the line not continuing selection or selecting for some other trait, sometimes merely selecting the one plant that lived!..or was first to germinate or had the coolest leaves...Its really no wonder that people have this question even after 50+ years of 'improvement' by amateur breeders...and explains why truly exceptional plants arise at a rate somewhere around 'random', or about 1 in a million.

hyb

Ru5tyNaiL · Dec 4, 2014

hyb.0 said:
This problem is further exacerbated today by the next breeder in the line not continuing selection or selecting for some other trait, sometimes merely selecting the one plant that lived!..or was first to germinate or had the coolest leaves...Its really no wonder that people have this question even after 50+ years of 'improvement' by amateur breeders...and explains why truly exceptional plants arise at a rate somewhere around 'random', or about 1 in a million.

hyb

Good point

Mate Dave · Dec 4, 2014

1-1 matings offer the best outcomes from cannabis breeding, it is how a single plant/clone's is created. Known parentage or otherwise randomly pollinated crops are just as likely to throw up a diamond in the rough as selectively bread stock.

The unique plants are usually the 5% that are double recessive in any F1 divergent cross as they clearly show the potential of the f2 generation. These double recessive individuals are usually true breeding for the visible phenotype shown and the best course producing a seed line of the clone is backcrossing to form f2 progeny with some variation over the known genotype.

Many males can be used to perform test crosses to the reoccurring female parent.

They say the best in 10.000 is a good true representation of the potential for each cross, but in reality if one single plant has what you need it is best to keep a clone of the plant.

There are many avenues to try when looking for the 'Holy Grail' including selfing males to determine their outcome over regular crosses. Even selfing the unique female individual will allow a new variety to form.

hyb.0 · Dec 4, 2014

Absolutely not.

Everything you said is wrong. At best, you may be referencing a program that seeks to recover simply inherited traits controlled by ONE GENE with 2 ALLELES ONLY...This is not even close to the real-world situation behind the inheritance of potency, flavor/aroma PROFILES, height, maturity....which are ALL polygenic, likely to be polyallelic and have gene interactions between genotypes and are not simply bred with single individuals based on some 'double recessive' idea. No. Please review your notes (or investigate) quantitative plant breeding on outcrossing species, and the recurrent programs that are employed there..in the real world.

purple_man · Dec 4, 2014

high fambz!

actually it's all a "numbers game" if you ask about how many seeds to pop to find an "elite keeper"...

most of the time, those "keepers" were/are found by amateurs via popping 2-3 or 10s of bagseeds lol

so it's all about the selection and marketing, for every gsc, kush, diesel n gorilla we loose REAL keepers, which don't get grown, due to the marketing macheniery behind the "nowdays" elites (same reason, everyone and their granny try to find a RKS but cant)...

blessss
ps.: same ish will go on in 20 years unless legal "sfv diesel" n others get kept alive in clone form,...

pps.: by the way dave, you rather have a homozygote aa keeper over a AA keeper??? sounds like you misunderstand selection with "breeding", which is nearly to non existent in the cannaBIZ (sadly)...

bambi · Dec 4, 2014

Elite clone - the chosen one:

Elite clone - the chosen one:

I think you've a better chance of finding the plant your after as in using cross seed or first f/1 and work on it from there, if its a good cross and selective breeding is in use then a plant like this can get better and better with each new generation of in line breeding and like the old dutch breeders used to do or still do is crossing them back over the original perants for stability purpose,

When taking clones off a plant seed - 6 clones are needed to find if theres any indica or sativa phenotypes amongst it, 6 clones off of different branchs also, saves a lot of time this, otherwise we'd have to grow out dozens and dozens of say 1 clone mother to find the clone we could've found in the original 6,

Well its how I do things learnt off others before my time, it helps a lot if smell aroma's and flavours are a must for the project or new plant, - depending on what seeds you choose to grow out such as the f/2 mentioned I think you should find one or two good plants much like the f/1 perants' by using 28 -30 seeds if there f/2's,

perfume smelling plants can make terrific flavours and aroma's in plants ive noted over time, purple budded plants being less desirable as there not normally as good a high as the usual green types, well enuff from me summer has begun in kiwi land and time to get out plotting I suppose, good luck with the new project plant) - b.

purple_man · Dec 4, 2014

high fambz!

first of all, any beanz you recieve nowdays are f1 hybrids (or femmed polyhybrids), now good luck with that as a starting point and low population numbers...

2nd, how come everyone and their granny start pushing the same mongrel recombinations for like 10$ a bean(femmed or even better, femmed auto)???

back in the day, folks would have bitchslapped (or worse) you for growing 10 plants and having 10 different phenos.... from a "legit" "breeders pack"...

blessss
ps.: all that "info" you posted is known to most "afficiendos" n wannabe breeders/pollenchuckers, BUT why spend 100s of thousands of $ on a strict/real breeding regimen/aim when one can get away with polllenchucking n marketing???

stoned-trout · Dec 5, 2014

clone only means the creator couldn't breed a stable line...

Apomixis · Dec 5, 2014

Hybe,

This is Kanza Kaya from Overgrow. I've been wanting to get ahold of you for moons! Would love to hear from you!

TheOutlawTree · Dec 6, 2014

Interesting stuff.

Can anyone recommend a couple good books with the right information for breeding cannabis?

draconis · Dec 6, 2014

Interesting. Some really great points.

Apomixis · Dec 6, 2014

Hybe,

Get at me. We both know we 're not gonna make it to 50 posts.

My visitor messages have been disabled. I have no way to get ahold of you but here

-Kanza

hyb.0 · Dec 7, 2014

Kanza! its done...and yea,...50 posts..they don't let me post 50 times...lol

budsoftruth · Dec 17, 2014

q for purpleman

q for purpleman

pman....is your avatar an orthodox icon/image?

looks a lot like the many i grew up with

Clone only strains - one in a million?

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