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The myth, of the high P myth?

Marquis de Sod

Marquis de Sod

Member
yo'sam. i noticed you got rid of the fencing around your plants and are just using that green string. any reason?

also have to note that after reading every page i still don't have an answer to the myth proven or busted thing. however the mandalaseeds site says that pot likes ferts with LOW numbers vs high numbers, lower than 10 10 10. i have switched and am getting better plants/buds than ever but i also switched so many things i can't pin it down to one thing. for veg i switched to PBP which is 3-2-4 , and for bloom went to biobizz, which is 1-2-2, (because of Kodiaks advice). it's a long way from 3-1-5 but i'm in the ballpark w/some other additives. i dont make my own. i sometimes add kelp extract, at 3-2-3 in both veg and bloom. You got me thinking i should get more nitrogen into my bloom room tho. Remember those graphs?? PBP bloom (2.5-2-5) is SOMEWHAT closer to the 3-1-5 mark, than the PBP grow. but not much difference between the two. i could use either it seems, from the numbers. But i'm in soil too. Dont know what Yosemite is growing in.
No matter what i use i will probably always add something or other to it. But stuff like budswel or sugar daddy dont have much of any NPK value. same with floralicious plus or liquid karma.

i am long way from knowing what i am doing. this was a pretty good read. will be lurking
How much did you have to pay for the 3-1-5 and how much quantity was that?
 
desertsquirrel

desertsquirrel

Member
Marquis, the numbers sam is using are in actual avaialble ppm, the numbers you are using are n-p-k ratios which are inaccurate and misleading. hope that helps.

And sam i like your nute profile man, great work.
 
Y

YosemiteSam

mullray said:
Looking good YS but it's the finish that counts.
Click to expand...

True dat. My daddy use to say that boy could fuck up an anvil. Plenty of opportunity left to do something wrong.

Here is my actual plan for the rest of the grow...nute cost about 2.5 cents per gallon.

Weeks 4 & 5:
2.41 CaNO3, 1 KNO3, 1.5 MKP, 2 MgSO4, .5 K2SO4 (these numbers are grams per gallon)

136-90-268-121-50-90

Week 6 & 7:
2.41 CaNO3, 1 KNO3, 1 MKP, 2 MgSO4, 1 K2SO4

136-60-285-121-50-113

There is also a micro package of course.

Plus foliar sprayed calcium until the last week cause that K:Ca ratio makes me a hair nervous.

This is not proven though so copy it at your own risk. 3-1-4-2-1 is still what I feel totally comfortable recommending...those are elemental ppms N-P-K-Ca-Mg.

edit...the cages kinda squeezed the plants together and made for poor light penetration. Bamboo stakes and the green stretchy stuff is an attempt to allow the plants to stay open but still support them
 
Y

YosemiteSam

You are correct desertsquirrel. Custom Hydro puts a label on there stuff that says 1 gram per gallon provides x ppm of this and y ppm of that.

That allows me to just sit down with a pencil and play around until I am happy or confused...no spreadsheet needed and so simple a cartoon character can do it.

Mullray...we based the lower N on this study http://www.gardenscure.com/420/redi...ronutrients.com/forum/download/file.php?id=32

Admittedly who knows if that translates to marijuana...but I am going to try to find out. I will be watching closely and figure I can foliar fish if they show any N deficiency.
 
Avenger

Avenger

Well-known member
Veteran
N def is probably the easiest to spot and recover from. but with so much S I doubt it shows at all. If they aren't done stretching by week four, keeping the N up a bit longer would probably work better than trying to stick to a paper plan.


you seen my lighter? :sasmokin:
 
Y

YosemiteSam

I hear you Avenger. They are done stretching and are starting to stack buds. The triacontonal in Ca25 has allowed me to knock a week off flowering and it tends to speed the whole process up.

I wish there was a way to reduce the SO4 but I need a certain amount of Ca which limits the K I can get from KNO3...that means either lots of MKP or K2SO4.

I may take a look at Albion's powdered Metalosate Ca...that might let me take better advantage of the mucho K provided by KNO3.
 
M

*mistress*

Member
Veteran
YosemiteSam said:
edit...the cages kinda squeezed the plants together and made for poor light penetration. Bamboo stakes and the green stretchy stuff is an attempt to allow the plants to stay open but still support them
Click to expand...
no fun getting poked by the ends, though... some seem to adapt and make stronger limbs, when ran w/out stakes, over/over/over.... stakes/supports only to open canopy & not have tops too close to ea other.......

The triacontonal in Ca25 has allowed me to knock a week off flowering and it tends to speed the whole process up.
Click to expand...
ca25? did *mistress* miss the description/details of this? please give post# describing this....

good input...
 
Y

YosemiteSam

Here is their cheesy website http://www.calcium25.com/

Here is the patent info for it http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/4333758.html

Here is an easy place to get it http://customhydronutrients.com/zen...lt&search_in_description=1&keyword=calcium+25

Read more about it in Tom Hill's big ass plants outdoors thread.

I spray it every other week from the minute my clones root (or a little before that if you want the truth) until the end of stretch. It has cut at least a week off my flowering time and makes some very healthy plants.

There is magic involved. It might even work on some of those imaginary plants mistress likes to grow :wave:
 
grapeman

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
As it has been pointed out to me by V and others, a good EWC tea has much usable Ca. I do however use a product called "Calcium 880" one time around the end of week 2 of flower, along with weekly shots of tea. Multiple applications of Calcium 880 had no additional benefit.
 
Y

YosemiteSam

Where does one find Ca edta?

I am shooting for 125-90-300-150-50 and S in the 60-70 range. Then at the end of week 5 I want to drop the P back down to 60 and maintain the other numbers.

I am now suspecting the easiest way is to buy some Albion Metalosate K...amino complexed K. That would give me some most excellent control of things.

One has to be very careful with K2SO4 because of solubility issues with CaSO4...I discovered this by trying to mix in CaNO3 before my soln was dilute enough. So, ultimately, I fear S above 100 ppm.

edit...Mullray, I do not think Ca25 increases my yield by 1 gram on a single grow. But, the tria in it definitely cuts a week or two off my flowering cycle (2 is what I actually see but I hesitate to say that out loud). Those extra grows per year sure as fuck increase my yield. The stuff is simply amazing and everyone should give it a shot. I would love to see if my results are repeatable by others...or if I am simply losing touch with reality...obviously, without independent confirmation, either is possible.

edit two...in my defense I did mention their site was cheesy. I think they simply chose Ca because of how safe it is to plants to supply tria. Why they do not mention it confuses the hell out of me. But patent info does not lie.

still another edit...grapeman, what is in your ewc teas? I have to admit I am highly interested in adding some microbiology to my grow to see if I can improve my taste. I was thinking amend the coco with ewc, compost and perlite or pumice and then do the occasional ewc tea feed. Are you using an organic media with refined salt nutes/ewc teas? Then again, I just mixed 600 gallons of organic soil for a little outdoor grow yesterday...damn it is a lot of work turning that shit multiple times with a shovel.
 
grapeman

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
YosemiteSam said:
Where does one find Ca edta?

I am shooting for 125-90-300-150-50 and S in the 60-70 range. Then at the end of week 5 I want to drop the P back down to 60 and maintain the other numbers.

I am now suspecting the easiest way is to buy some Albion Metalosate K...amino complexed K. That would give me some most excellent control of things.

One has to be very careful with K2SO4 because of solubility issues with CaSO4...I discovered this by trying to mix in CaNO3 before my soln was dilute enough. So, ultimately, I fear S above 100 ppm.

edit...Mullray, I do not think Ca25 increases my yield by 1 gram on a single grow. But, the tria in it definitely cuts a week or two off my flowering cycle (2 is what I actually see but I hesitate to say that out loud). Those extra grows per year sure as fuck increase my yield. The stuff is simply amazing and everyone should give it a shot. I would love to see if my results are repeatable by others...or if I am simply losing touch with reality...obviously, without independent confirmation, either is possible.

edit two...in my defense I did mention their site was cheesy. I think they simply chose Ca because of how safe it is to plants to supply tria. Why they do not mention it confuses the hell out of me. But patent info does not lie.

still another edit...grapeman, what is in your ewc teas? I have to admit I am highly interested in adding some microbiology to my grow to see if I can improve my taste. I was thinking amend the coco with ewc, compost and perlite or pumice and then do the occasional ewc tea feed. Are you using an organic media with refined salt nutes/ewc teas? Then again, I just mixed 600 gallons of organic soil for a little outdoor grow yesterday...damn it is a lot of work turning that shit multiple times with a shovel.
Click to expand...

Just good EWC hanging in a 400 mesh sock in a 5 gal bucket of declorinated water with 5 tsp's of blackstrap molasses and plenty of air bubbles. 18 to 24 hours will do it. Go to the "tea article" thread. It's full of available Ca.
 
grapeman

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
mullray said:
Grapeman if all you are doing is bubbling molasses what beneficial bacteria what do you think are being added? Microflora forms quickly in hydro systems but without control mechanisms such as adding beneficials such as trichoderma it seems extremely random and a hope for the best situation or am I missing something here? Are you also adding beneficial microbes to the tea?
Click to expand...
LOL. Re-read my sentence. It all starts with "just good ewc......"

But I have been known to make dumb mistakes. but not this time.
 
pinecone

pinecone

Sativa Tamer
Veteran
mullray said:
So what I'm wondering is whether they think they are getting beneficial bacteria and fungi as well or whether this is just an NPK micro etc mix?
Click to expand...

By putting earth worm castings (EWC) in an aerated compost tea (ACT) which includes a food source (molasses) you are creating favorable conditions for the for bacteria, fungi, and other microbes to multiply (in addition to supplying available N-P-K). Thus, the EWC is like is like spawn and the tea is the culture created from that spawn that can be used to inoculate a substrate with microbes.

For more information - http://www.microbeorganics.com/

Pine
 
pinecone

pinecone

Sativa Tamer
Veteran
mullray said:
OK - every time I hear the word organics my skin crawls. The greatest Ag hoax.
Click to expand...

Different strokes for different folks.

So you take a heap of worm dung and hope for the best.
Click to expand...

Whereas EC meters, PPM meters, and pH meters tools of serious hydro growers, organic growers that are serious about it and/or operating at a certain scale have microscopes to identify different bacteria, protozoa, and fungi in ACTs and soil. Compost, other tea ingredients, and brew time can tweaked to achieve a particular desired balance of microbial life.

High quality friendly bacteria and/or fungi products depend on having high concentrations of the microorganism(s), long shelf-life and a formulation appropriate to their use.
Click to expand...

What products? We really aren't talking about any products other than EWC (homemade or store bought) and molasses which serve as the basis for most ACTs. One of the reasons that ACT is commonly brewed with EWC instead of compost is because EWC is more consistent in terms of the balance of microbial activity.

Molasses and other microbial carriers commonly used for producing liquid beneficial products and peat granule, traditionally used for creating dry micro products, are unique in that they have a high initial ‘bio-burden’ (I.e. high number of
Click to expand...

Maybe my store bought molasses is loaded with anaerobic bacteria. I honestly don't know as I'm not one of the serious organic growers with a microscope. If it was I suspect they would not do well competing with aerobic bacteria in the aerobic environment of an ACT.

Pine
 
grapeman

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
mullray said:
Thanks - now there's a great idea:) So what I'm wondering is whether they think they are getting beneficial bacteria and fungi as well or whether this is just an NPK micro etc mix. Love the concept of organics (e.g. mycorrhizae and other microbes break down insoluble organic phosphates and turn them into inorganic phosphorous at which point and only then does the "inorganic" P become available for uptake and so on). Thanks BB - that clarifies for me.
Click to expand...

Mullray - just think of it as a tonic for the soil. I get my EWC from a local ewc farm where the owner blends products for local farmers. Very few of these farmers are "organic". They are all serious folks who are looking for an edge in the competition.
 
Y

YosemiteSam

I have heard things like it makes a big difference in the taste of the grapes...is that correct grapeman?

If it does then I suspect it will also change the taste of marijuana. That is why I am interested.
 
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