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Non-Newb with a coco problem

Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
Whats VPD?
Vapor Pressure Deficit - Basically it's a measure of temperature and humidity with relation to their effect on transpiration. Many gardeners use a low RH which can cause stress without equally low temperatures. Most gardens should be working with their RH in the 60% to 70% range but many people are down under 40% because of mold issues.

Whats CEC?
Cation Exchange Capacity - "Some coirs have been chemically treated, this is most often the case with loose pre-hydrated varieties versus compressed blocks. The treatment has been done to satisfy the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the growing media. As a refresher, “cations” are positively charged ions, such as Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, and Potassium. This means that the growing media will hold these ions in a matrix, releasing them as required by plants. There is one slight drawback to this. Until the cation exchange capacity of the growing media is filled, the growing media may hold positively charged nutrient ions, most notably calcium, in reserve, making them less available to plants. However, the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the coir media is quickly filled, and actually assists calcium absorption in the crop cycle. To ensure optimum availability of all nutrients, supply additional calcium during the first week of growth or during the hydrating process of the coconut coir. Calcium supplement products are ideal for this. Some nutrients specifically formulated for coco tend to have elevated levels of calcium and magnesium while having lower levels of nitrogen."

I wonder who Botanicare gets their Coco from, I doubt they are actually manufacturing it. I bet you could find the same stuff at a nursery for ¼ the price
Enh, The stuff is like $0.15 per liter for me, most people can get it for about x2 that price, which still isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things. Almost all coco comes from Sri Lanka, and a distributor out there. I don't know of any hydroponics company that actually owns a tree or processes everything themselves from husk to bag. Most of the difference between brands come with how they are treated by the manufacturer. I like the Cocogro because it's been steamed and cleaned and compressed. Compared to unsteamed brands like CANNA I've found less debris and bug issues, but that's not 100% universal. The coir depends on the monsoon seasons to rinse it clean and break it down prior to shipping, so even from year to year you could find a reputable brand is suddenly garbage, but the less reputable brands are still selling the good "old" coco while it lasts. I kind of rely on some form of consistency from my brand because of the nature of the coco and steaming it seems to provide a similar product for me time after time.

If I use 3 gallon pots what can I do to catch and capture the run off so I can measure it and make sure I maintain 20-25% runoff? I'd don't want to use flood tables if I can avoid it.
I've used saucers and tables mostly. I went out of my way to accommodate runoff but it's not in the cards for everyone.

So for Canna AB 5-4-3 @ 3ml/gal I multiply (5*3)*2.65 = 39.75 for N, ((4*.44)*3)*2.65=13.99 for P and ((3*.83)*3)*2.65=19.79 for K. Do I have that right?
You got it. Technically, what we are doing is converting the percentage into mg/L=ppm. The 2.65 is a simple reduction of that formula (X%/100)*(1000mg/Yml)*(3.78L/1gal).

For the micronutrients, do I do the same formula that I used for N?
For Calcium and Magnesium you'll use the same as N. I think Suflur is represented in a funky way, but the plant uses that form of sulfur (or something like that, I've never really worried much about it). Apparently, 60 to 120ppm of Sulfate during flowering is recommended.

How do you calculate the ppm of a powder like big bud?
The same way, but you're using grams instead of ml. I use a rough estimate that 1 tsp ~ 5 grams. None of this is an exact science, I just use the numbers as a comparison so that I know MY "78ppm" of Nitrogen from a specific system is either too much or too little for MY plants. As far as another grow, with a different nutrient program, and different plants, it can be difficult to get specific. I just keep an eye on things until I have an idea of what's going on.

When you say you drop everything Day 42, you mean you only run the CNS and CES?
Yup, Just CNS 17 Ripe and the CES Uncle Johns blend until plain tap water feedings over the last 7 to 10 days.

How necessary are humic acids? I was using the Diamond Nectar because of the little bit of P&K
Totally optional, especially outside of organic mixes.
 


Well my RH stays 60%-70% so at least I got that going for me!

Yup, Just CNS 17 Ripe and the CES Uncle Johns blend until plain tap water feedings over the last 7 to 10 days.

So do you use like 18ml/gal of CNS?

I attached a pic of modified version of my week 7 nutrients according to the 100N-100P-200K-50Ca-60Mg profile

Can you take a look and see if I'm on the right track?
[url='https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=60386&pictureid=1418298']
 
I mixed a 1 gallon test batch of nutrients just to see how my latest profile would work out and my ppm on paper vs actual ppm is waaaay off.

Check the attachment pic. The ppm numbers on the left are what I calculated using the CannaStats Nutrient profile Calculator (link below). The numbers that are underlined on the right are the actual ppm that was read using my bluLab combo meter ppm 500. So I'm pretty sure I'm still missing something.

I feel like I should back off the PeaK to 2ml/gal and Kangaroots (KR) to 1ml/gal and Epsom Salt to 1g/gal to reduce the ppm by my estimation to 580. But I'm worried that if do the PeaK at 2ml it will bring my K down from 185 to 155. That's higher than what I started at 116 but still missing the 180+ mark. Also my K would drop from 105 to 78 :(

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm#profilecalculator

 

Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
Well my RH stays 60%-70% so at least I got that going for me!
Nice, I'm sure that it's helping as much as possible. Your VPD is probably all good.

So do you use like 18ml/gal of CNS?
I want to say I was running something like 90ml per 5 gallon container, that measurement sounds about right. I really like the CNS17 program, I think it's dialed in perfectly for coco, and its cheap. The only downside is that because the system is all 1 part nutrients the elements need to be kept in a goopy suspension to keep them from precipitating. The nutes need to be mixed up more than most systems and they need another 10-20 minutes in the reservoir to dissolve before using the solution (there's always a catch).

I attached a pic of modified version of my week 7 nutrients according to the 100N-100P-200K-50Ca-60Mg profile

Can you take a look and see if I'm on the right track?
I cannot seem to see any of the images you've posted. Maybe it's my browser? I can see the html tag when I do the reply but not from the regular post. And the link doesn't go anywhere for me.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=60386&pictureid=1418298
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=60386&pictureid=1418298&thumb=1

When I'm running CNS17 Ripe 1-5-4 at 18ml/gallon my solution is closer to 50N-105P-160K-0Ca-70Mg, then I'll add in ~10ml of 0-0-2 Uncle Johns Blend to bump the K into the 200ppm range. The Phosphorus is a tad on the high side but I'll reduce the CNS to 15ml/gallon, then to under 10ml per gallon pretty rapidly so it doesn't stay that high for long. I use unfiltered tap water at about 250ppm to start so I don't worry much about Calcium at this stage, but 1-2ml of a Cal-Mag product to bring in 20-40ppm of that element won't hurt.
 
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Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
I mixed a 1 gallon test batch of nutrients just to see how my latest profile would work out and my ppm on paper vs actual ppm is waaaay off.

It's definitely going to be different from what you calculate. I found that some products, like Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus, will register a little under 2x where they should. CANNA Coco A+B a little over 2x. PK 13/14 actually under where it should register, and Botanicare's Liquid Karma at 7x where it "should be" based on our calculations.

What I need to stress is that this is not an exact science, it's foggy. The percentages on the bottle are only the minimum, so that's not an accurate place to start. Our measuring apparatus is usually questionable for both the water and the nutrients, a ml here or there will add up. The meter's themselves are also calibrated with a simple solution of salt to measure the conductivity at a specific concentration, then they apply that calibration to the 10+ other elements we mix in the reservoir. Between the incorrect percentages, the human error, and the meters we use... You should expect it to be different. Being right on would actually be a red flag.

Check the attachment pic. The ppm numbers on the left are what I calculated using the CannaStats Nutrient profile Calculator (link below). The numbers that are underlined on the right are the actual ppm that was read using my bluLab combo meter ppm 500. So I'm pretty sure I'm still missing something.

It's not about accuracy as much as it is about consistency. Just keep your notes and follow a solid feed program. The numbers are a relational, comparative, tool for grow after grow.

I feel like I should back off the PeaK to 2ml/gal and Kangaroots (KR) to 1ml/gal and Epsom Salt to 1g/gal to reduce the ppm by my estimation to 580. But I'm worried that if do the PeaK at 2ml it will bring my K down from 185 to 155. That's higher than what I started at 116 but still missing the 180+ mark. Also my K would drop from 105 to 78 :(
What I do is mix the nutrients to my calculations, so that I know that my ratios aren't totally off (even when the ppm's turn out higher than expected). Then I'll just add fresh water to my reservoir. This will drop the EC into a safe range for the plants and evenly decrease all the elements so that the good ratio is saved.
 
It's definitely going to be different from what you calculate. I found that some products, like Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus, will register a little under 2x where they should. CANNA Coco A+B a little over 2x. PK 13/14 actually under where it should register, and Botanicare's Liquid Karma at 7x where it "should be" based on our calculations.

When you say that Cal-Mag is registered under, do you mean that the stated analysis of of 2-0-0-3.2-1.3 is really closer to 4-0-0-6-2?
because that's fucked boys...

It's not about accuracy as much as it is about consistency. Just keep your notes and follow a solid feed program. The numbers are a relational, comparative, tool for grow after grow.


What I do is mix the nutrients to my calculations, so that I know that my ratios aren't totally off (even when the ppm's turn out higher than expected). Then I'll just add fresh water to my reservoir. This will drop the EC into a safe range for the plants and evenly decrease all the elements so that the good ratio is saved.

Word. So after some research and looking around an extra closet I discovered I had a new bag of Maxibloom from GH and it looks like its close to perfect for flowering.
It's a 5-15-14 and at 6g/gal this is what I come up with

N - 79
P - 104
K - 184
Ca - 79
Mg - 55
S - 63
Fe - 1.58

Looks good to me, but what about the other 10 micro nutrients it's missing. Manganese, being the big one.

Also, why is mixing 6g/gal (1.5ec) then basically cutting it in half (.7ec) any different than just running 3g/gal?
 

Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
When you say that Cal-Mag is registered under, do you mean that the stated analysis of of 2-0-0-3.2-1.3 is really closer to 4-0-0-6-2?
because that's fucked boys...
Yup... You got it. I think it's probably closer to a 3-0-0-3.5-1.5 and then it measures a little higher because of the standards of EC on the meter.

Word. So after some research and looking around an extra closet I discovered I had a new bag of Maxibloom from GH and it looks like its close to perfect for flowering.
It's a 5-15-14 and at 6g/gal this is what I come up with

N - 79
P - 104
K - 184
Ca - 79
Mg - 55
S - 63
Fe - 1.58

Looks good to me, but what about the other 10 micro nutrients it's missing. Manganese, being the big one.

GH MaxiBloom is the basic one-stop formula. Super cheap, totally effective across a broad range of medias and phenotypes of not just Cannabis, but all sorts of plants. It is really similar to the Lucas formula as a dry salt and it works well in Coco. Most people tend to supplement it with some Epsom Salts, and I've seen some tinker with KoolBloom and Floralicious in conjunction.

You can always do a little something with it though to dial it in better for your plants but let me stress that it's a great base nutrient for coco coir at a rock bottom price. Some elements do get left out of the label. I'm not 100% sure if that means they aren't in there or if labeling laws are too strict to actually say what is going on. That's the issue we deal with most of the time. There's many products, Banana Manna comes to mind, where the issue is the label not conforming to state code.

Also, why is mixing 6g/gal (1.5ec) then basically cutting it in half (.7ec) any different than just running 3g/gal?

It's totally the same. Many gardens are using different measurements of their nutrients and supplements, so it was meant more to those situations. I have a bloom formula that looks like: 2ml of Cal-Mag Plus, 5ml of Canna Coco A+B, 0.25g Big Bud dry, 2ml Hydroplex, 10ml Uncle Johns. Tends to balance out around 1.6ish, which is good most of the time, but sometimes I like to go a little lighter and that's where I mean to keep your ratios. I kind of mix it up as strong as I'd like to go and then tone it down for each feeding based on how plants read.
 
GH MaxiBloom is the basic one-stop formula. Super cheap, totally effective across a broad range of medias and phenotypes of not just Cannabis, but all sorts of plants. It is really similar to the Lucas formula as a dry salt and it works well in Coco. Most people tend to supplement it with some Epsom Salts, and I've seen some tinker with KoolBloom and Floralicious in conjunction.

Why do you run Canna instead of something like a Maxibloom?
 

Meison

Member
have you guys tried GH duo? I have always wondered why people sticks to lucas or the new lucas with floranova..

Barely see growers using GH duo, any hints? Stuff I should know about? I have set my mind on trying it on coco, at least once!
 

Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
Why do you run Canna instead of something like a Maxibloom?

There's just too many nutrients!

I've tried a few other systems. Organicare, General Organics, Cutting Edge Solutions, Humboldt Nutrients, Earth Juice, Cyco, Advanced Nutrients, and Fox Farms, if we're only talking about the base...

These days I'm pretty well set on Botanicare as a brand for my base systems. CNS17 All Media for Coco is great stuff. Their Pure Blend Pro system is great too and works really well in those quasi-organic systems. I just did a very simplistic grow with each and the harvest was well beyond my expectations.

The comparison I think I could make is to golfing. Why doesn't everyone use Ping? Or Nike? Or Taylor Made? Steel Shaft or Graphite, and what kind of graphite firm to soft? Then there's the balls, and the shoes, hat, visor, sunglasses, grips, gloves...What about what's in the bag? Carry a 5 wood or a utility wedge? 10 degree or 8 degree loft on the driver? Every course is different. And every golfer has slightly different mechanics. I approach gardening like this, where not every club is necessary but sometimes they're nice to have around. The right one at the right time makes all the difference.
 

Rondon

Member
Im not sure exactly, but just my .2 cents worth. I had similar results after changing over to Coco and it wasnt until I went down to 3gallon pots (Coco does very well in smaller containers) and made sure to NEVER let the coco dry out that I was able to get the deficiencies eliminated. In my case I decided to go with tap water/ no cal/mag. I also follow the KISS technique and keep a consistent 1.0 EC until flush. Ive now settled on Veg+Bloom formula and use Earth Juice catalyst to lower my PH to 5.6-5.9, best results so far.
Sounds like you need some runoff if your EC is going up that high.
IMO 5 gallon is too big for Coco unless you have a massive root system to handle and then you are feeding 3-4 times a day or more.

Good idea using EJ Catalyst as a very beneficial and natural pH down. I been growing a long ass time and used all the brands and I never thought of this supplements naurally acidic profile as a traditional phos.acid pH down replacement. Thx.
 

Rondon

Member
Experience can be your worst enemy when switching to coco:biggrin: If your root zone temps are ok then the lockouts are caused by that insane ec they are living in as you probably already know. Not much you can do except flush it down to an acceptable range. I learned my lessons, I stay in nothing larger than 2gal fabric pots with 100% coco and never go above 1.0ec in veg and 1.2ec in bloom. Up to 6' trees. Goodluck with the flush.:tiphat:

1.0 to 1.4 EC of nutrient plus a decent 0.2 - 0.4 EC tap water is perfect for my drip to waste coco coir system. 2 and 3 gallon fabric pots..which arent true 2 and 3 gallons..they are less especailly Aurora brand fabric pots. Ive been growing in coco well over 10 years and almost 20 before that. Ive used all the brands. They are all extremely overpriced and they all work. That being said...I went to Jacks 3 grams 2 grams 1 gram about a year ago and I have spectacular results. Comparable to any expensive hydroponic hobby shop brand and saving ALOT of money doing it. I bought enough Jacks 6 months ago to last me at least 3 years worth of 65 to 70 day crops. I used Canna..Cns17 and Ionic prettt regularly before the switch with awesome results but I get the same now for a fraction of the price. I run a fairly decent sized basement operation using 8x Gavita 6/750's and 4x1000 single ended and a nice sized veg room. Nutrient expense was a factor back before the switch. Not anymore. I also reuse my coco up to 3 times..saving even more money. Soon Iam making the switch to cmh fixtures for extreme cost efficiency. I will pass the savings in operating costs on to my patients. They will be pleased just as I am now.
 

CHEFfy

Member
Don't know if anybody has already suggested this but Hydroponic Research V&B will save you some serious PITA. One part truly complete nutrient, hardly ever needs PH'ing. I used t alongside Jack's and got better results. Enough so to offset the cost difference (which is big) while being MUCH easier. There's a couple good threads in the nutrients forum.
 
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