HPA Aeroponics for Commercial Production

stoned-trout said:

most aero setups for dope is setup towards small clones...wouldn't take much to make the rootspace bigger..but have you priced bigass pvc tubes....expensive

Click to expand...

yea well, pvc pipes are not ideal for such a trivial task. sdr26 bell pipes are probably what you are thinking of. beyond those, you get into c900 pipe w/ the joint locks, and they cost even more.

past say 4" pipe, the cost is such that you are better off making your own enclosures...

for small ones, ive postulated that fluted polypropylene sheets are ideal... you can make enclosures by simple folding, and non water tight joints can be made with poly rivits, and possibly solvent welding. water tight joints can be made with with additional pieces of material and sealant such as OSI TeQ bond or perhaps polyurethane adhesives.

alternatively i hypothesis joints can be made with heat welds, drywall corner bead and fasteners,mastic tape... butyl flashing material... HDPE sheeting stock perhaps. etc.

at this small to mid scale, you can reinforce with interior triangular sections of this material, and make fastening in the same manner.

this is good to around 2'x2'x2' ish containers, or 2x2x however long tubes. lengths of tubing can be joined in a similar manner as that noted above.


for larger enclosures,the same material, and even triple layered material can be used. when support is needed, one could reinforce in the same manner one reinforces large negative pressure duct sections, namely with old style snap wire and thin 22 and up gauge galvanized steel or low sch. pvc tubular struts at 18" oc triangles. fastening would require larger washers, larger than the 2x2 duct washer available perhaps.

this would probably be good for like up to 3 or so wide and not much more imo.

any larger, and this thick material becomes too costly to justify, and one must consider a think films with skeletal support structures. a good film would be the thick liners they use create water impermeable areas. one would require a very good heat sealer, and a great deal of time an patience, but i believe this material could be used to build tent like structures, with light weight steel tubular supports, or perhaps wood. in the case of steel, you would make sleeves in a similar manner to that of tents. you would reinforce these sleves with sections of thicker material. lids could be constructed by laying wood purlin like members across the structure. these members could then support panels of extruded PE foam, or perhaps even the fancy aluminum or fiber reinforced XPS panels they use to build walk in freezers.

furthermore, im of the opinion one could use the good quality geotextile fabrics to make the sides of enclosures... they are fairly.... water repellant, what little water that is lost would be of no consequence imo. alternativly, a bit more expensive material would be woven WRB material ( Tyvek), but it would likely require regular replacement, as its only rated for something like 6 months of UV exposure.

i also considered using light steel framing members, the sort one uses to build interior walls, to support either a thin film as noted above, or a pvc film like a shower curtain material, or perhaps even sheets of extruded foam. the foam boards however even the PE foam boards are venerable to UV and mechanical wear, and would need additional protection from the sun. they are also very expensive, and arguably serve no insulating purpose, as the temperatures will equilibrate regardless. as i never considered cooling the root chambers attractive.

i thought about all this shit for a long time, but never really had the cash to go anywhere with it. all of the above would require some amount of tools.

what im into now, is building fertigation systems. ive accumulated a shit load of equipment, conductivity analyzers, ph analyzers, pulsatrons, bellows pumps, flow switches and all kinds of other shit. one of these days id like to build in legit automated, batch wise, or continuous fertilizer mixing into my fertigation heap.

To make a good large chamber at home, I use a 4x8 low profile flood tray, I like the active aqua ones that are more squared.

Make a frame with white vinyle fence posts (the same that you would use for those little LPA aero systems like aeroflo.) And when i say frame were making a big box with them.

Then using HDPE plastic sheets. You can secure them to the plastic frame with screws or I like to make them detachable or like sliding doors so I can work inside the chamber and see the roots.

On the insides of the plastic vinyl fencepost frame where the root chamber is, I use aquarium silicon anywhere that needs a seal, although most of water is going down into the flood tray anyway, of which you flood to drain or whatever you wanna do.

You can make the frame as high and deep as you want. 3 feet deep preferably.

I know pictures are worth a thousand words in the case and soon I will walk people through a nice clean chamber and manifold. Hard to picture what I'm saying I'm sure.

HDPE plastic is what you want. FDA approved i believe and with a dirty reservoir you dont even need to take a sponge to it. Just wipe and it's gone! Normally in commercial tray setups you bust out the pressure washer and it was still not easy to scrub off.

Indoor Harvest actually uses the HDPE. Show'd me a video of the cleaning and I was super impressed.

queequeg152 said:

furthermore, im of the opinion one could use the good quality geotextile fabrics to make the sides of enclosures... they are fairly.... water repellant, what little water that is lost would be of no consequence imo. alternativly, a bit more expensive material would be woven WRB material ( Tyvek), but it would likely require regular replacement, as its only rated for something like 6 months of UV exposure.

i also considered using light steel framing members, the sort one uses to build interior walls, to support either a thin film as noted above, or a pvc film like a shower curtain material, or perhaps even sheets of extruded foam. the foam boards however even the PE foam boards are venerable to UV and mechanical wear, and would need additional protection from the sun. they are also very expensive, and arguably serve no insulating purpose, as the temperatures will equilibrate regardless. as i never considered cooling the root chambers attractive.

i thought about all this shit for a long time, but never really had the cash to go anywhere with it. all of the above would require some amount of tools.

what im into now, is building fertigation systems. ive accumulated a shit load of equipment, conductivity analyzers, ph analyzers, pulsatrons, bellows pumps, flow switches and all kinds of other shit. one of these days id like to build in legit automated, batch wise, or continuous fertilizer mixing into my fertigation heap.

Click to expand...

I like your thinking. I've gone through the same ideas.

Mad Lab said:

To make a good large chamber at home, I use a 4x8 low profile flood tray, I like the active aqua ones that are more squared.

Make a frame with white vinyle fence posts (the same that you would use for those little LPA aero systems like aeroflo.) And when i say frame were making a big box with them.

Then using HDPE plastic sheets. You can secure them to the plastic frame with screws or I like to make them detachable or like sliding doors so I can work inside the chamber and see the roots.

On the insides of the plastic vinyl fencepost frame where the root chamber is, I use aquarium silicon anywhere that needs a seal, although most of water is going down into the flood tray anyway, of which you flood to drain or whatever you wanna do.

You can make the frame as high and deep as you want. 3 feet deep preferably.

I know pictures are worth a thousand words in the case and soon I will walk people through a nice clean chamber and manifold. Hard to picture what I'm saying I'm sure.

Click to expand...

kudos for fabricating something that works, but you are talking about 300 dollars worth of trays alone and probably alother 50-75 bucks for sheets of HDPE and pvc fence posts. for this grow one enclosure.

seriously, it makes no sense outside that plants that you grow.

the corrugated material i noted above is closer to 20-50cents a square. a 3x3 cube would be 27 square feet, or 14 or so dollars worth of material. the support structure would probably be another 10 - 15 bucks worth of material.

however you would be right in pointing out that that this plastic is hardly resilient.

Here's an example of a simple HPA manifold I drew up real quick for people who are really new it to, to give them an idea of the components and where to get them if they need reliable ones.



I put this together really quick as well for some people who needed a real good breakdown, it is not complete and it is also copied and pasted from a few old threads, mostly on rollitup. So TB, atomizer and treefarmer: credit goes to you.

Aeroponics is a method of growing plants which uses air as a growth medium. When growing in a soil medium, roots grow through and around soil. In a hydroponic system, water takes the place of soil, and roots grow in and through water. In an aeroponic system, air is the growth medium. Roots are suspended in air and are periodically misted with a nutrient solution. Roots are constantly in contact with the air, allowing for an increased uptake of nutrients, water, and oxygen.

Proponents of this method argue that aeroponic growing is superior to both hydroponic and soil grow systems. Increased efficiency means less nutrients, water, and oxygen are required. The potential of aeroponics to create larger crops in less time and a fraction of nutrient and medium costs holds promise for the future of agriculture. The presence of more oxygen also discourages bacterial and fungal growth. The most effective root medium is the one which delivers the most oxygen to the roots. A dense soil may only deliver 30% oxygen to the roots, while a soilless mix will deliver up to 50%, and hydroponics will deliver around 80% oxygen. With aeroponics the sky is the limit, you literally receive 99% possible oxygen to the roots.

HIGH PRESSURE AEROPONICS (HPA)
HPA is a specific subset of aeroponic growing, developed by NASA. NASA’s goal with HPA was to create the largest amount of bio-mass with the smallest amount of input. All HPA systems are aeroponic, but not all aeroponic systems are HPA. HPA is a kind of aeroponic method in which the nutrient solution is misted or sprayed on the roots at a high pressure, usually around 120 PSI or so. This solution is sprayed via nozzles, which are generally quite small. This high pressure forces the nutrient solution out of the nozzles in the form of water droplets. The higher the pressure, the smaller the resulting water droplet.

NASA studies have indicated that there is a specifically-sized water droplet that is taken up by plant root systems more efficiently than other sizes. This sweet spot is within the 30-80 micron diameter range. Water, oxygen, and nutrient solution are more efficiently and rapidly processed when roots are exposed to nutrient solution droplets of this size. High pressures also atomize the nutrient solution, furthering positive benefits. Consequently, less water, oxygen, and nutrients are required than in a conventional growing system. HPA systems can cut nutrient use by 90%, meaning lower costs, a “greener” product, and farming that is more environmentally friendly. Clearly, HPA is a superior method of growing.

AEROPONICS vs. FOGPONICS
In aeroponics, the best benefits are from the smaller 50 micron average target size droplets (Based on NASA experiments years ago). Well, Ultrasonic transducers create from 1-5 micron droplets. Most think, "if 50 was good, then 5 must be better!" But not so. The size of droplets are so small that they cannot get enough fluid and nutrients to the roots to sustain much growth. The fogger also creates enough heat to cause root rot, although chillers are an expensive option.



VARIOUS HPA METHODS
There are a few methods of producing the droplets required for HPA:

CENTRIFIGUL: where a high speed disc shears the water into tiny droplets
PUMPED: where a liquid pressure of generally at least 60 psi is used.
ATOMIZING: where high pressure air is used to mix with the nutrients in a specialized and expensive nozzle. Also referred to as air assisted aeroponics (HPAA)

FUZZY ROOTS
HPA plant roots are unique as the roots take on a different structure, actually looking like fishbones, fuzzy and puffed out as opposed to the typical spaghetti roots that are subjected to large amounts of water. These specialized roots are very efficient, with the ability to really take out what you spray at them. The roots try to make most efficient use of the environment (if it's conducive). Each little hair is actually one big single root cell that only lives for a day or 2 and are constantly replaced. Roots only feed from the tip, but since there are hundreds of tips in a tiny sample area when the hairs develop, you can figure out the obvious advantages from there
Apparently the plant roots will prefer to find pooling water, and if so, the fuzzies will quickly absolve and return to a normal root structure. So the idea it to perpetually keep them in the right environment, subject only to atomized mist-and never allowed to touch pooling anaerobic nutrient in the bottom. Some people have found silkscreen suspended from the bottom of the chamber installed very tightly so roots cannot climb around and under it, is a good way to keep the roots out of the bottom condensation. Overspraying the nutrients to point of saturation, or any types of stress on the plant may make the fuzzies disappear apparently. The idea is to get the fuzzies, and keep the fuzzies.



TEMPERATURE
Optimal root chamber temperature is said to be 68F degrees. No colder than 58F degrees or warmer than 75F degrees. As for temperature and effecting evaporation of droplets in chamber after a cycle fed, a 50 micron droplet holds a small volume of water (0.000295 mm) so the water temperature isn`t too important. The air temperature and humidity in the root zone are more important as they affect the lifespan of the droplets. A 50m droplet in a 25 C, 50% RH root chamber will live for around 4.5 seconds reducing in size as it dies.



DEMAND PUMP SYSTEM EQUIPMENT
ROOT CHAMBER
This is where the plants grow out of. It can be virtually any container that separates the roots from light and allows the mist to freely flow. You may choose to have one pod for each plant, or a larger chamber containing many plants. You may choose to use an insulated chamber or not depending on the ambient temperatures. The basic needs are to block light, contain the mist, maintain a reasonable temperature, and provide the roots with enough room to spread out. A few drainage holes in the bottom to let excess condensation out (your used throwaway nutes) and a netpot or pvc step down size adaptor with a neoprene disk to hold the plant are about the only thing you need to add. The rootspace you'll need for each plant varies by how much veg time you plan on. A bigger chamber also allows the mist to spread out more evenly- a positive trait.


SILK SCREEN
The roots only stay fuzzy as long as they don't get soaked, and sitting in the chamber bottom with the condensation and runoff is bad for that. So the idea is to use a super fine mesh screen slighly above the bottom that allows drainage, but not the roots to slip through into the moisture. Either a silkscreen or a NFT Spreader mat is what was recommended, as normal window screen is not fine enough to keep the roots from going through. And it must be installed tightly around the edges, because once a tiny root gets under it, the root will continue to press through it like the way they push through the soil.
FILTERS
Debris doesn`t come in uniform shapes or sizes, something 1 micron around and 2mm long will pass a 1 micron filter, the same applies to coarser filters. 0.075" is 1.905mm or 1905 microns. (1000 microns = 1mm). One micron is one millionth of a metre or 1000th of 1mm, either way its pretty small.

Mesh usually relates to the number of "wires" per inch, the aperture depends to some extent on the thickness of the wires. If you buy it in sheet form, the specs will usually give you the wire diameter and the aperture size.


Inlet/Outlet: 1/4" Push-in
Strainer: 200 mesh (60 micron)
Max. Operating Pressure: 170 PSI
Max. Operating Temp: (-20 F) - (+185 F)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5873-dmfit-filter-strainer-14-x-14-push-in-200-mesh-60-mic.aspx

Inlet/Outlet: 1 1/2"
Strainer: 10 Micron filter
Max. Operating Pressure: 150 PSI
Shatterproof clear plastic housing
http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/I..._micron_filter_31_8_CFM_1_2_NPT_F/EW-79700-70

PUMPS
The pump needs for pressure over volume is a difference between HPA and other methods. The amount of fluid your pump pushes (GPH) becomes less important to the pressure it pumps it at (PSI). Although sizing the volume output will have some effect on your setup, it only has to do with how long the pump will be on for in it's cycle to fill the accumulator. The higher pressure the fluid pushes through the nozzles at, the smaller the droplets of water will be. 50 micron droplets are the target size, and most low volume nozzles generally need at least 80 psi to achieve this size. Diaphram pumps are the least expensive and most readily available type of pump to create these pressures. They are commonly used on carpet steam cleaners among other things. There are also 2 styles of high pressure diaphram pumps:

Demand Pump: this pump type has a built in pressure switch and automatically comes on when it senses demand, or a drop in pressure initiated by the opening of a solenoid or valve. There will be a preset pressure level that the switch turns the pump on (cut in pressure) and a preset pressure level it switches back off at. (cut out pressure). Most nozzles we are looking at for this seem to produce the 50 micron droplet size between 80psi-100psi.

Bypass pump: this pump is just always on when an electric current is applied to it's terminals. It has an internal fluid bypass that routes the excess flow of water to recirculate within the pump beyond the psi rating it is set for. Apparently this bypassing can cause the fluids to warm, so allowing the pump to run for long periods in bypass is not ideal.

Demand pump is the better bet, but the pressure switches included with most of them are not the greatest quality, and offer poor control, so the ideal situation is to get a demand pump, but also purchase a high quality pressure switch to use independently of the pump.

\
Aquatech 8800
Maximum Flowrate: 8800 gph
http://www.reptilebasics.com/aquatec-8800-booster-pump
ACCUMULATOR TANK
This is a pressure vessel meant to store energy in the form of compressed air with fluid. It holds air which will compress when the fluids are pumped in since water does not really compress in itself. Most people try to get by using a pump without an accumulator, and it yields poor results. The idea is that the pump pressurizes the accumulator, filling it with the nutrients, until the desired psi is achieved by the pump and it shuts off. A solenoid is located down line at the mist nozzles that can open and close, initiating the misting cycles. The nozzles will output various micron mist size under different pressures. There is a ramping up and down of the pump pressure as it starts and stops, during which lower pressures are affecting the nozzle's spray. The mist cycles on HPA are generally fractions of a second to 2 seconds per cycle, the pump spends a portion that much time just getting to pressure, causing undesirable large drops spitting out of the nozzles which will cause wet roots, and undermine the benefits were trying for here in HPA. Even if the proper 50 micron mists are created during part of the cycle, the larger droplets will land on top of them and wet them all together as if it never happened. A good accumulator will have a bladder that can be initially charged with air that will compress and exert pressure upon the liquid you pump in, and force it out under such pressure when the solenoids open. You'll want to pressurize the bladder with air at 2psi less than the minimum pressure you plan to run in your system. Tanks often come precharged to 40 psi or so, and more air will have to be added before connecting them to the system- using an accurate digital air gauge preferably. If using a pressure cut in switch set to 80psi, then the idea is to set the accumulator air charge to 78psi. The interior will be coated with a plastic coating to resist the nutrients from rusting it out. The larger volume the accumulator can hold, the longer you can go without the pump even coming on. If you size your accumulator correctly, you can go days or a week without the pump even needing to come on. Some people use a large accumulator tank along with a manual hydraulic pump.


Amtrol ST-12 (Therm-X-Trol)
Max Pressure (PSI): 150
Temperature Range (F): 200°F MAX
Tank Volume: 4.4 Gallons
http://www.supplyhouse.com/THERM-X-TROL-Tanks-354000


Max Pressure (PSI): 125
Temperature Range (F): 200°F MAX
Tank Volume: 21 ounces
http://www.superwater.com/181201.ht...LzzIGl125z_i5qWszT9Kn6ART4TyVUmPdEaApPc8P8HAQ

SOLENOID
This is simply an electrically actuated liquid flow on/off valve, that instantly opens/closes to control the flow to the nozzles from a signal sent from the timer. They come in all sorts of voltages and pipe diameters depending on what you are running. I like the idea of running everything, including the pump and timer at 12v DC, so a deep cycle battery can be connected with a trickle charger. This way if the power fails, the plants won't die- the system can operate for days without external power. In aero everything happens before you know it, and the roots can dry out fairly quickly if not supplied with mist. It is best to have a solenoid just before each nozzle if possible. One solenoid could control the flow for the whole system, but once again, it's about control. The longer the run of tube between the solenoid and all the mister nozzles, the more the tube can expand and contract, causing pressure variations. The idea is to have the solenoid inches from the nozzle, so that when the solenoid triggers the spray instantly flows through the nozzles at the proper pressures, and also instantly turns off when they close. This is what gives the necessary control for doing this type or growing.. There are so many sizes and variations, but for the system being described we are looking for a 1/4" John guest type fitting 12v DC normally closed version.

ASCO Stainless Steel Solenoid Valve 1/4in
Operating Pressure: 0 - 650 psi
Normally Closed
Price: $79.95
http://store.flw.com/products/asco-...Mb8sMSUWwfGJM00cS5U-mqJrZ8grqAlBu4aAkoY8P8HAQ

HIGH PRESSURE LINES
For anything pressurized after the accumulator, the best bet seems to be John Guest tubing (PEX) 1/4" and using all John Guest fittings. It is simple to slide in the tubing and lock into the fittings, and can also come back apart and together again without cutting the lines. I've seen some people using pvc, but it doesn't make sense to me as the pvc leaves too much volume to expand and will cause the issues we're trying to avoid with pressure variations. The tubing is cheap 15c-30c/foot, but each T or other fitting are around a few dollars or so- apparently they can really add up- but everyone swears by them and they make the most sense.

NOZZLES
The ideal target is <1ml per 100L of chamber volume per misting, maintaining a droplet size range of 5-80 microns with full coverage. The challenging part is staying below the mist saturation point using the only variable you have to work with: the timing. There`s a very good chance the timer wont go low enough so you may have to settle for something less than perfect and resort to altering to pause timing to compensate but its not ideal. Correct droplet size range and full coverage take top priority as nothing works without those. Once you have those sorted you have effectively set your flowrate in stone and you`re left with timing for adjustment. A 0.25sec/30 sec cycle gives the same daily throughput as a 1sec/2min cycle but produces a more consistant level of mist in the chamber. Maintaining constant 30-80micron mist in the chamber without exceeding the max saturation point is the goal.

You want your misters near the top of the root chamber, 1) because the roots will tend to grow over the nozzles if they are below and block the spray, and 2) because you need to let gravity pull the mist down and spread it out. Copper components, or even brass, as it contains copper are a no-no. Copper leaches out into the nutrients and becomes toxic to the plants. Stainless steel is fine, but components made of it tend to be pricey.


Tefen Plastic Nozzle
http://www.reptilebasics.com/misting-nozzles

TIMER
All we are trying to do here is provide a slight moisture, and if you see any formed drops on the roots, then you need to back off the misting time and/or extend the pause time. Also if you are basing your timing observations off of cycling the pump on/off for a second, this will be a very big difference than the effect you'll get from getting instant pressure from an accumulator/solenoid setup.

Universal Operating Voltage: 20VAC to 240VAC and 12-240VDC
Output Relay: DPDT 10A @ 250VAC
(6) Switch Selectable Ranges: 1.0 sec., 10 sec., 1.0 min, 10 min.., 1.0 hr., 10 hr.
http://www.iseincstore.com/422AR_Timer.aspx

DEEP CYCLE BATTERY
Connecting plumbing essentials to a deep cycle battery instead of plugging them into AC Power outlets has more than one upside. 1. You don't have to worry about mixing high voltage and water. 2. The system could be ran off a battery independent of the unreliable electric company, so if the power goes out and you don’t have a backup generator installed, the system should run for days. Key is to have a trickle charger connected to the battery at all times.


True Deep Cycle Battery 12 volt
http://www.batteryspec.com/cgi-bin/...Xec0PHK4BilHfBqUW23OowgpegzpVyUrhAaAkwP8P8HAQ

PRESSURE GAUGE
Pressure gauge to tell you the psi of the system.

PRESSURE SWITCH
A high quality pressure switch rated for 80 psi cut in and 100 psi cut out. Most onboard pressure switches are usually cheap junk. Buy a good quality external pressure switch, short the onboard switch and the pumps will get a new lease of life

PRESSURE REGULATOR
A pressure regulator to keep the pressure exact despite the pressure the accumulator is at depending on how much it's been drained. Remember, it's all about control, and if the pressure is varying over time, the mist will too. SDC10


Watts P60 Plastic Water Pressure Regulator
Size: 1/4-1/2in. (8mm) gauge port.
Maximum Oper. Pressure: 300 PSI
http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=769

PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE
A pressure relief valve is very important if not manually pumping, incase the pressure switch fails and the pump keeps running, the accumulator could reach a bursting pressure and blow up like a bomb! GET ONE AND INSTALL IT IN THE PROPER LOCATION!


Hypro Pressure Regulating Relief Valve
Size: 3/4"
Max Oper. Pressure: 150PSI
http://www.spraysmarter.com/liquid-...150psi-pressure-regulating-relief-valve.html#

queequeg152 said:

kudos for fabricating something that works, but you are talking about 300 dollars worth of trays alone and probably alother 50-75 bucks for sheets of HDPE and pvc fence posts. for this grow one enclosure.

seriously, it makes no sense outside that plants that you grow.

the corrugated material i noted above is closer to 20-50cents a square. a 3x3 cube would be 27 square feet, or 14 or so dollars worth of material. the support structure would probably be another 10 - 15 bucks worth of material.

however you would be right in pointing out that that this plastic is hardly resilient.

Click to expand...

I would hardly do that for anything more than a 2 tray 4 light room.

For commerical

I would go the metal frame route with long troughs. Thin HDPE sheets.

Or, saving slightly by ditching the metal frame work and spending that money on a thicker HDPE plastic sheet and weld the plastic trough sides together at the seems.

Of course with the second route your still going to be make a metal frame for the stand and trellis bars so why not just save the money by doing all metal frame with the plastic sheets.


Here's the big question for me. If the Federal government legalize cannabis in the near future, will the FDA force hydroponic growers to use FDA approved food grade lines and FDA approved plastics?

Mad Lab said:

For commerical

I would go the metal frame route with long troughs. Thin HDPE sheets.

Or, saving slightly by ditching the metal frame work and spending that money on a thicker HDPE plastic sheet and weld the plastic trough sides together at the seems.

Of course with the second route your still going to be make a metal frame for the stand and trellis bars so why not just save the money by doing all metal frame with the plastic sheets.


Here's the big question for me. If the Federal government legalize cannabis in the near future, will the FDA force hydroponic growers to use FDA approved food grade lines and FDA approved plastics?

Click to expand...

fda approved plastics?

what makes you think the fda would regulate what plastics can be used in a greenhouse environment?

queequeg152 said:

fda approved plastics?

what makes you think the fda would regulate what plastics can be used in a greenhouse environment?

Click to expand...

"NSF International, formally knows as The National Sanitation Foundation, is an independent, not-for-profit, neutral agency, serving government, industry, and consumers in achieving solutions to problems relating to public health and the environment. NSF Standards for equipment, products and services are developed with the active participation of public health and other regulatory officials, users and industry. NSF publishes Listing Books which identify equipment, products, components, materials, ingredients or services that have demonstrated conformance with NSF requirements and are authorized for Certification. Materials used for NSF approved devices must often comply with NSF material standards. Three commonly referenced NSF Standards for plastics materials are 14, 61, and 51. NSF Standard 14: Plastics Piping Components and Related Materials applies to thermoplastic and thermoset plastics piping system components in contact with potable water and primarily addresses physical properties of plastic components in piping and plumbing systems. ANSI/NSF Standard 61: Drinking Water System Components – Health Effects covers indirect drinking water additives. This standard addresses health and toxicity effects of plastic resins. NSF Standard 51: Plastic Materials and Components Used in Food Equipment defines the material requirements for foot protection, considering extractables using FDA guidelines. For further information on NSF Standards, contact NSF International, 3475 Plymouth Road, P.O. Box 1301140, Ann Arbor, MI 48113-00140. By phone; (313)769-8010."


http://www.plasticsintl.com/food_compliant_materials.html

Thanks for providing all this info. Knew most of theoretical stuff already, but the examples of parts and their costs is really helpful

On the FDA approved plastics note: I'm not from the US, I'm from the netherlands. So I don't know much about FDA regulations, but almost all commercialized aeroponics systems are provided with food-safe plastics and tubings, which makes me think it will be regulated.

Lixtryum said:

Thanks for providing all this info. Knew most of theoretical stuff already, but the examples of parts and their costs is really helpful

On the FDA approved plastics note: I'm not from the US, I'm from the netherlands. So I don't know much about FDA regulations, but almost all commercialized aeroponics systems are provided with food-safe plastics and tubings, which makes me think it will be regulated.

Click to expand...

Glad to get more awareness out there! Thanks for stopping by.

Also, thanks for your input on the food-safe plastics. I think alot of growers when they see food-safe they say, "WTF? Noone ever made me use approved plastics for any of my grows" and assume that this unregulated world will last forever.

If we wanna play soon, we are going to have to think about these things.

Do you have any information regarding Netherlands use of HPA? I remember some bad ass GH's 10 or 15 years ago implementing aeroponics over there, but cant find much information on it.

I’ve been growing in HPA systems for more than 2 years not commercial but for personal use,

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=250246

Many of your initial statements like a 90% water savings and 50% nutrient savings not so much. Labor savings quite probably.

I’ve built many systems large plant multi sprayer to single sprayer.

Many people building HPA systems are obsessed with how fluffy the roots are and pay little attention to the plant.

Indirect spray, Restricting water (more time in-between sprays) gives a fluffy root ball with many tiny feeder hairs, lowering the nutrient level will also give a fluffier root ball, But at the expense of the plant.

Direct spray of 1.0-1.2ec on bare roots has given me the best results overall.

The plumbing is very similar to the diagram except for the regulator and relief valves.

Weed said:

I’ve been growing in HPA systems for more than 2 years not commercial but for personal use,

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=250246

Many of your initial statements like a 90% water savings and 50% nutrient savings not so much. Labor savings quite probably.

Click to expand...

The 93% water saving number is a well known statistic.

This is if you choose to recirculate the water and this is also comparing to the same size/age plant as SOIL.

Obviously, recirculating hydro systems are not 93% savings.

93% might be a well repeated statistic, does not mean it is accurate.

Plants are 90% water, transpiration carries nutrients throughout the plant, restricting the water will restrict the growth of the plant.

A plant must process a great deal of water to remain healthy, does not matter if hydro, aero, or soil. This is why we buy dehumidifiers.

Hydro and aero are more efficient but not 93% more.

I still highly recommend HPA, it is by far the easiest cleanest and most productive method I have ever used.

In two years the only equipment failures were a loose wire from the factory on the pressure switch and one solenoid not closing so it was using a lot of water.

I will check back in, looking forward to see what you come up with.

Weed said:

93% might be a well repeated statistic, does not mean it is accurate.

Plants are 90% water, transpiration carries nutrients throughout the plant, restricting the water will restrict the growth of the plant.

A plant must process a great deal of water to remain healthy, does not matter if hydro, aero, or soil. This is why we buy dehumidifiers.

Hydro and aero are more efficient but not 93% more.

Click to expand...

im inclined to agree with your doubts towards HPA, or at least doubt the fantastic statistics mentioned above.

if anything the 93% figure is comparing sophisticated HPA growing systems to that of shitty center pivot walking overhead irrigation systems that DESTROY water...

but compare it to a simple drip to waste hydro system, which is easily the most common commercial greenhouse system. i suspect this number drops to 30% or so. its also worth noting that drip to waste systems can be recirculated as well. if this is done, id suspect this number would drop further.

all that being said, id love to see some one grow toms aggressively and fairly economically using such a system. I admit to having doubts, but i have NO problem admitting when i am wrong.

outside extreeme environments like the desert, where agriculture is very difficult, water is simply not worth a whole lot. i can see water getting up to say... double digit pennies per gallon in a very extreme short term scenario, but not in a long term case, as its very easy, though costly to build infrastructure to convey or generate water.

contrary to what is taught, water is literally everywhere. one must jsut trade energy to get it into a usable form. people like to think in terms of pipes when they converse about water scarcity, but this is a very narrow view, and one that is too costly to pursue in most cases.