Can someone please.....

... refer me to a chart of optimal nutrient levels in PPM for soilless mixes, to include primary nutes (NPK), as well as secondary and micro nutes. Meaning, nutes IN the mix by virtue of organic amendments, etc.

Arnold had referred me to a posting on a Google cloud or some other source, but that was back when I had SERIOUSLY SLOW internet, and couldn't "get there from here."

I'm hoping for a chart that gives a -range- for all of the nutes, from major/primary, down to micro, and all points between, but which highlights OPTIMAL levels, as well as reasonable upper range, in order to further my efforts to find a mix that only needs a top-feeding of organics maybe a couple weeks before the 12:12 flip.

Directions to such a chart?

I did a search here, as well as Google, but nothing stood out.

I have not yet tried to contact Arnold, who used to frequent the Advanced Botany forum here.

If you're reading this Arnold, chime in. And if you have that link you shared with me a year or 2 ago... apologies for my not having retained it where I can find it.

I've been pursuing a 1-3-2 ratio in N-P-K, so, for example, in the soilless mix, for N-P-K, I've been tentatively seeking to adjust my bloom mix to: N (70 to 80)- P (200-240)- K (120-160).

For the secondary and micro nutes, I've been following a more generic set of levels/limits, not specifically structured or established for cannabis. And as many are aware, each type of plant has its own preferred levels for nutes, etc.

And some of my different strains of canna plants express different tolerances or desired levels for nutes, lighting proximity, temps, humidity, etc.

Thanks in advance for any links or pointers.

Hay moose,,,

Have you factored in DO (desolved oxegen),,, it works in a similar way to salts,, you can only fit so much in before shit crashes out,,

Increeses in DO means a decrease in needed nute strength

I'm really getting into DO atm

Have you thought about root secretions??,,, and how it effects ph stability

Thanks Rick.

Haven't heard of the DO.


The potted mixes change over time, and at times in the past I've tracked ph through the process.

I use yucca extract now, every so often, (in theory) to rinse out salts or neutralize them.

I went through my hard-drive documents earlier this evening, found the link to the work sheet/chart Arnold shared. It apparently was not the type of chart as I had assumed. More of a work sheet. But the link was no good this evening, and Arnold had advised me to down-load it promptly when he had first shared it.

Trouble back then was internet speed.

I've apparently snoozed and lost out.

Gradually drawing down on my levels on many nutes, as well as adjusting the balance between them, and figure I have 2 more phases of incremental adjustments and tests for my mixes before I'm close to being right in there with generic parameters for proper gardening, but was hoping someone had something similar to what Arnold had tried to share with me.

Thanks. I'll do a search for the topics you raised.

DO is huge,,, (desolved oxegen),,, i literally use organic media now just so I can get H202 more organics for it to react with,,, DO can change your nute requirements,, it's definitely a big deal,,

I also find pk is a terp killer,,, Increeses in nutes seem to distroy unique traits and cause terps to be homogenised between cuts

I'm about to test Increeses in DO on nft soon as I can

Ppm of what tho,,, a tds meter only mesures the most conducting element

englishrick said:

DO is huge,,, (desolved oxegen),,, i literally use organic media now just so I can get H202 more organics for it to react with,,, DO can change your nute requirements,, it's definitely a big deal,,

I also find pk is a terp killer,,, Increeses in nutes seem to distroy unique traits and cause terps to be homogenised between cuts

I'm about to test Increeses in DO on nft soon as I can

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I've primarily used H2O2 when addressing a perceived fungal issue in roots.

Some say they've had no issues with it, but in increased dosage, like 2-4 cups per gallon on a repeated regimen, I was concerned about a build-up of additional salts. And at some point, the plants would peak, and I would see some decline.

A little bit of a good thing, versus too much of a good thing.

And I was concerned with the possibility/probability of it eventually affecting beneficial microbes negatively. Kinda' like antibiotics killing both good and bad critters, to the detriment of the host, eventually.

I've noted different preferences for different nutes between my strains, with some in particular reacting to too much N more than others; especially during bloom, dealing with residual N from the base mix, when it was obviously too high, both by sheer numbers, as well as observation of the plants....

I look at ratios rather than ppm because you have to factor in the CEC of your soil. Just something to consider when looking for rates. Hope that helps!

KIS said:

I look at ratios rather than ppm because you have to factor in the CEC of your soil. Just something to consider when looking for rates. Hope that helps!

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Thanks.

Just got back home LATE this evening.

The ratios I've typically sought re. NPK have been (for bloom mix) 1-3-2.

However, the secondary and micro nutes, I haven't had a pat reference that was specific to cannabis, other than for generic preferred ranges from testing facilities.

Thanks again! And if there's specific details you are willing to share, I'm all eyes/ears.

I'd go on further re. observations when the soilless mix was seemingly stout, but buffering kept the wolf from getting past the door, so to speak. But I'm waiting for someone to arrive, then get to bed. Been up 22-1/2 hours, and my normal long-windedness is suffering a bit.

There was a list floating around here. Maybe Slownickle’s thread?
It listed the decomposition rates of different organic amendments.

Not necessarily too much nitrogen in the mix, but rather perhaps the timing of it’s release?
KIS makes a good point about CEC.
I’d throw in environment as well. Microbial count?
Easy at least easier when using a standard chemical mix in coco with perhaps a little perlite.`
Much more complicated with an organic shotgun approach.
Of course I personally add a couple cups of fukit.
It can be a rough journey and the treasure is buried deep.
I’ll watch you dig and share the bounty.

one good tip to remember is every feeding or amendent is delayed on how it shows through the plant. I always start slow and see how they do if they perk up and pray(fan leaves) then i would keep going that direction

Thanks, h.h.

I've got a chart here (actually more of a collage, in pieces) of org. amendments and release times, which was posted by Doc Tim (and others) a couple years back. In the past, I suspect that going from veg to bloom, rarely but sometimes using the same mix, rather than varying N & K between the 2, I've benefitted without intention or premeditation from the delayed release of some of the P, Mag amendments, and K as well.

I'm trying to get counts in ppm and ratios down to where a variety of strains and water sources makes for a success in a generic way, all the while knowing that each has its own preferences.

Arnold had shared a nutrient calculation chart with me, as stated earlier, but it is no longer on the 'cloud' where it was once posted, back when I then had internet that was too slow to be of any real use.

My mix is getting progressively closer as I go, with what I estimate are maybe 2 more tests to go (with modifications in between, but again, I'm dealing with <currently> more generic ranges for secondary and micro nutes than levels specific to cannabis, acknowledging the buffering/CEC dictates how much is too much, or not enough).

I just got back late last night, as stated, and need to get to town to pick up a vehicle, then onto other chores, Or I'd try to get more detail in these 2 posts.

Thanks for the input to all.

Onward!!

FrostAie said:

one good tip to remember is every feeding or amendent is delayed on how it shows through the plant. I always start slow and see how they do if they perk up and pray(fan leaves) then i would keep going that direction

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Yep, over the years I've had to restrain myself in order to prevent doing damage with too much love via supplemental/additional feedings. At this point, my base bloom mix is too stout in re. to most amendments, with the exception of P, and perhaps Boron, maybe another 1 or 2, but I've been gradually bringing it down where it was over, -gradually-, after each mix analysis, rather than over-shooting my mark too rapidly.

This last crop go-round, of Ghost Train Haze #1, California Indica, and Super Lemon Haze, was only really fed a couple times throughout the bloom cycle, using bat guano tea with some bumps from a low-potency K kelp extract solution, very timid amounts of fish emulsion (5-1-1), and compensating for the P needs with a bit of P from a couple other sources, as the P was one item (of a couple) that was low in my soilless mix lab analysis.

Thanks again..

More later. Gotsta' run. Snow's here to stay now, it seems, and lots still to get done.

So.... trying to digest reading re. CEC (my last mix was tested at a CEC of 23.4 with a ph of 6.3 in my Mehlich III test). Apparently the CEC in that test is on the low side.

I'm trying to find specific methods of raising my CEC, while trying to stick to the 1-3-2 ratio of NPK in bloom, and a 2-3-2 or so in veg mix.

I can increase the vermiculite a bit to see if that helps bump the CEC up.

My Calcium saturation was at 66.25%, with (if my notes are correct; too many changes recorded on the same page, and ....) 2/3 cup of granular gypsum and ~1-1/2 cups of garden lime and 3 TBSP of dolomite lime to the ~15 gallons of overall aggregate of mix.

My current plan includes increasing my earlier amount of garden lime by 3 TBSP to 27 TBSP total, and leave the gypsum at 3/4-cup..

It seems (??) that maybe I can slightly decrease the perlite and pumus a wee bit, in adding the increased vermiculite, and that may help bump the CEC as well?

If you want high CEC use zeolite.

If you don’t want aluminum, don’t use vermiculite or zeolite.

https://ag.purdue.edu/hla/fruitveg/Presentations/Langenhoven_Characteristics_Soilless_IHC2017.pdf

Thanks, h.h.

I've got granular zeolite, but have gone light, due to the aluminum. I've cut back on the Z content to 1/4-cup in about 15 gallons

I have Jersey Green Sand, which is a form of zeolite, technically speaking, but carries an average value of 3 for K, which I don't want to boost, as I've ended up with more K than I want already, though, to my favor, re the JGS, the release of K is VERY slow, so amping that up a tiny bit might not be as bad as it might seem.

Admittedly, I'm ignorant re. other metals, etc., in the JGS, so I may be running from one trap into another.

BTW, I was aware from a couple years ago (from your posts) that perlite carried about an 11% (+/-) charge (??) in aluminum, but was unaware of the link between aluminum and vermiculite.

I'm off to town to score some heavy-duty underlayment to make a platform for fuel drums in the utility trailer.

Well, Christmas came early.

A person I'd been trying to reconnect with sent me their nutrient calculations work sheet; partly in a foreign language, but I think Google translate can overcome that hurdle. Then I need to figure out how the work sheet functions. That may take a bit longer.

And another person sent me a list of primary, secondary, and micro nutes targeted optimal levels for cannabis, though they stated there was no strict definition of (safe) upper limits, presumably due to it being both a matter of preferences, plant tolerances, and the variance in traits in different strains.

But numbers?? I can follow that, when blatantly obvious.. I'm somewhat of a Rain Man math guy.

So, when everything else we're into gets settled, including finishing the construction of my custom light hangers for the boxes, to augment the 315s, then I've got a road-map that exceeds the usefulness of my more generic 'map' I'd been using.

Thanks all, and Santa, too!!

You can use the list that someone provided to build a spread sheet in excel.


USE CEC x (Ca 200, Mg 120, K 390, Na 230) x desired %= ppm needed to find your ideal amounts per given CEC.


Do the same with your nutrients on hand, input the amounts in each and calculate what you need to hit your target. Every 1000 grams of soil is just the same as calculating ppm's in a liter of H20, adjust your input numbers based on what the soil test results show you.

THANKS gc!!

You've been very kind and helpful throughout numerous efforts. And I know your time is taxed, as well, making your helpfulness that much more appreciated.


I am aware of what an Excel spread sheet is, have looked at them, but am afraid that if I were to try and construct such an instrument, I'd end up some place off in the South Pacific, before I realized where I was/am.

I will try to use a calculator to assess the nutes per your formula/equation(s), acknowledging that one risky blind spot is the 'minimum content' in various ferts, and that sometimes there's stuff present that didn't get tested for, etc. resulting in the mysterious elevated K, sulfur, salts, etc., that we've seen in some of my efforts, that have caused some of the head-scratching, guess-work, etc..

I'm looking forward to trying my adjusted August mix, and getting some labs done, hopefully with enough time to let the numbers narrow in disparity between H2O extraction and Mehlich III.

A friend in the bush is chomping at the bit for my Satori experiments with the beans I received this spring or summer. He's wanted THAT strain for years, and now I'm sitting on my hands, waiting for an opportunity to clear my proverbial and literal desk sufficiently to make room in my OCD head to tackle that, as well as about 4 other new-to-me well-regarded Bodhi strains.

Meanwhile, in a recent phone call, he was whispering, intentionally barely audible in the background... "Satori... Satori.... Satori..."

So, I'm a tad closer to getting deeply into calculators, quiet thought re. mixes, and making another effort toward soilless mix Nirvana.

I've appreciated EVERYONE'S contributions and patience with my mental blocks to new concepts, and teaching a non-science person hard sciences in what I'm sure, from both ends, is an uphill, sometimes frustrating battle.

I think my 'beginner's luck with cannabis horticulture lasted over 20 years before the Cosmos decided it was time for me do a bit more to actually earn some of the past successes.

Thanks again!!

growingcrazy said:

You can use the list that someone provided to build a spread sheet in excel.


USE CEC x (Ca 200, Mg 120, K 390, Na 230) x desired %= ppm needed to find your ideal amounts per given CEC.


Do the same with your nutrients on hand, input the amounts in each and calculate what you need to hit your target. Every 1000 grams of soil is just the same as calculating ppm's in a liter of H20, adjust your input numbers based on what the soil test results show you.

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