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Itsgotatail

Member
So I'm thinking about tearing apart my MKIII/IV hybrid and rebuild it into something better.

It's currently two 4"x48" material columns, a 12"x12" collection vessel, bi-flow system - I do one run up and another down, 20-30lb of gas. passed over 6-7lb of material (probably too much gas) It was built in late 2013 so a lot of new tech has been developed since then. Biggest problem is that it's all set up to run connected to this HUGE chassis/base. Like 6'x8'x4' without anything attached (nearly 10' tall assembled) and 800+ lbs, because there's a non-working HUGE AC unit welded to the frame. A LOT of work to cut it loose. It takes an engine hoist crane to get the thing off the ground. Lots of guys to get it in and out of a pickup. Not feasible anymore. Can't find a place to set it up anywhere anymore...


I can only manage two runs/day (~14lb starting material) if I'm there for 12 hours. Unfortunately my entire chilling system consists of my (100# standard yellow/white) recovery tank sitting in a 30gallon pot of standard ice surrounding it, and a regular ice surrounded SS coil (that 69-ish size; 6" diameter by 10" tall, ~10 coils) located between the recovery pump and the recovery tank. Also, the only heating being done is by a nice big 220v (another issue) 12"x30" silicone band heater, wrapped around a pot that the collection vessel sits in. I have to run 220v into this system - over a $100+ cord/socket JUST for that, because the AC unit chiller no longer works, which was originally chilling the recovery tank to 5°F. Now I just use ice.

I recognize that this is beyond insufficient, it's downright dangerous...

How did I get to the point where I have a $10k+ extractor (actually $25k+, in 2013, including a lot of expensive labor)
But can't afford $500-2500 in simple upgrades?

Truthfully, this whole rig was payment for an old debt. I just decided to keep it and pick up a new hobby instead of sell it. I've only done maybe 20 runs since I got it in Jan 2014. It's truly a hobby for me, that I haven't been able to afford to fund. Something that I tinker with 1-2 times/month. I haven't made a penny on it (nor do I intend to). But it is pretty sweet to just crank it up once every couple of months and be set for myself and all my friends turning trash into treasure.

So now, I have ~$2500 available for upgrades. First choice would be a CMEP-OL, but I'm going to save that for the next round. I want to be prepped for it, so I can truly appreciate the possible 2.5x increase in throughput. Here's my thoughts on what to do instead:

First, a simpler rack system - preferably something that fits inside my midsize camper. This would necessitate splitting the rigid structure and replacing a two inch column with a 1/2" flexible line between the material column and the collection spool...no problem. 8-10' tall is just too long to trust free-standing, but a set of 4' wide rigid columns, connected by flexible hoses are basically fine, just bungee corded to a backboard (J/K;). Some reducers, hoses, etc. No biggie.

Then I was thinking about simplifying it from a dual column to a single column system. The dual columns seem like they actually slow me down. It's still twice as much butane that has to be recovered, which is most of the time involved. A lot of unnecessary plumbing. A lot of extra parts for later can be scrounged from here.

So I'm thinking about setting up my second 4"x48" column either before or after my material column. Either to prechill my butane before injection, or to work as a dewax chamber. I'd really like to be able to run live (from my freezer) material. In fact, I NEED that ability, with this set of upgrades.

Next, I have a whole secondary 12"x 12" collection spool, bottom, and a second top. I'm considering strapping the two spools together and laying it horizontal for more recovery surface area, like some of BHOgart's machines. Maybe I'll have to get new lids, maybe not. Obviously, I'm trying to reuse as many parts as possible.

But the big question is how do I incorporate the -10
to -40°F treatment into this system? And where? I'd like to not have to replace my material columns...they're not cheap, and the sleeved/jacketed replacements are quite a bit more. I've heard a little about blasting a small amount of butane in, then pulling back to freeze the column easier? If I can keep my second material column as a spare, for prepping the next round, and instead chill using different methods, that would be great. I really want to get to the point where one, or even a pair of CMEP-OLs wouldn't be able to keep up with the rest of the system. I know that might cost $5+k. That's like a 10-20L lab chiller...probably too small. I'll try for some pics tomorrow.

One idea that I'm just barely starting to explore is peltier elements to assist a dry ice/nenatured alcohol system. There's 500+W peltier elements available for <$50. Seems like a sub-$1000 2.5-10kW cooler could be made, although it may require dry ice or LN2 for the cold side. Anyone played with this? I know...so many questions! Maybe I'll make an introductory post tomorrow. This site has been my primary source of info on extraction for 4+ years now!
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Itsgotatail said:
So I'm thinking about tearing apart my MKIII/IV hybrid and rebuild it into something better.

It's currently two 4"x48" material columns, a 12"x12" collection vessel, bi-flow system - I do one run up and another down, 20-30lb of gas. passed over 6-7lb of material (probably too much gas) It was built in late 2013 so a lot of new tech has been developed since then. Biggest problem is that it's all set up to run connected to this HUGE chassis/base. Like 6'x8'x4' without anything attached (nearly 10' tall assembled) and 800+ lbs, because there's a non-working HUGE AC unit welded to the frame. A LOT of work to cut it loose. It takes an engine hoist crane to get the thing off the ground. Lots of guys to get it in and out of a pickup. Not feasible anymore. Can't find a place to set it up anywhere anymore...


I can only manage two runs/day (~14lb starting material) if I'm there for 12 hours. Unfortunately my entire chilling system consists of my (100# standard yellow/white) recovery tank sitting in a 30gallon pot of standard ice surrounding it, and a regular ice surrounded SS coil (that 69-ish size; 6" diameter by 10" tall, ~10 coils) located between the recovery pump and the recovery tank. Also, the only heating being done is by a nice big 220v (another issue) 12"x30" silicone band heater, wrapped around a pot that the collection vessel sits in. I have to run 220v into this system - over a $100+ cord/socket JUST for that, because the AC unit chiller no longer works, which was originally chilling the recovery tank to 5°F. Now I just use ice.

I recognize that this is beyond insufficient, it's downright dangerous...

How did I get to the point where I have a $10k+ extractor (actually $25k+, in 2013, including a lot of expensive labor)
But can't afford $500-2500 in simple upgrades?

Truthfully, this whole rig was payment for an old debt. I just decided to keep it and pick up a new hobby instead of sell it. I've only done maybe 20 runs since I got it in Jan 2014. It's truly a hobby for me, that I haven't been able to afford to fund. Something that I tinker with 1-2 times/month. I haven't made a penny on it (nor do I intend to). But it is pretty sweet to just crank it up once every couple of months and be set for myself and all my friends turning trash into treasure.

So now, I have ~$2500 available for upgrades. First choice would be a CMEP-OL, but I'm going to save that for the next round. I want to be prepped for it, so I can truly appreciate the possible 2.5x increase in throughput. Here's my thoughts on what to do instead:

First, a simpler rack system - preferably something that fits inside my midsize camper. This would necessitate splitting the rigid structure and replacing a two inch column with a 1/2" flexible line between the material column and the collection spool...no problem. 8-10' tall is just too long to trust free-standing, but a set of 4' wide rigid columns, connected by flexible hoses are basically fine, just bungee corded to a backboard (J/K;). Some reducers, hoses, etc. No biggie.

Then I was thinking about simplifying it from a dual column to a single column system. The dual columns seem like they actually slow me down. It's still twice as much butane that has to be recovered, which is most of the time involved. A lot of unnecessary plumbing. A lot of extra parts for later can be scrounged from here.

So I'm thinking about setting up my second 4"x48" column either before or after my material column. Either to prechill my butane before injection, or to work as a dewax chamber. I'd really like to be able to run live (from my freezer) material. In fact, I NEED that ability, with this set of upgrades.

Next, I have a whole secondary 12"x 12" collection spool, bottom, and a second top. I'm considering strapping the two spools together and laying it horizontal for more recovery surface area, like some of BHOgart's machines. Maybe I'll have to get new lids, maybe not. Obviously, I'm trying to reuse as many parts as possible.

But the big question is how do I incorporate the -10
to -40°F treatment into this system? And where? I'd like to not have to replace my material columns...they're not cheap, and the sleeved/jacketed replacements are quite a bit more. I've heard a little about blasting a small amount of butane in, then pulling back to freeze the column easier? If I can keep my second material column as a spare, for prepping the next round, and instead chill using different methods, that would be great. I really want to get to the point where one, or even a pair of CMEP-OLs wouldn't be able to keep up with the rest of the system. I know that might cost $5+k. That's like a 10-20L lab chiller...probably too small. I'll try for some pics tomorrow.

One idea that I'm just barely starting to explore is peltier elements to assist a dry ice/nenatured alcohol system. There's 500+W peltier elements available for <$50. Seems like a sub-$1000 2.5-10kW cooler could be made, although it may require dry ice or LN2 for the cold side. Anyone played with this? I know...so many questions! Maybe I'll make an introductory post tomorrow. This site has been my primary source of info on extraction for 4+ years now!
Click to expand...

Dirty peeectures?

4X48" is tooo much column for a 12X12" spool. To run three volumes through the column will require clamping your two bottoms together in at least a vertical position.

Laying the spools on their side gives you maximum surface area when they are half full, but the surface area falls as the level falls, because of the curved sides.

I tried cooling using evaporation on the Mk VII, but found the boiling point is directly related to the mix and unless it is high in Propane, the boiling point isn't low enough for timely in line dewaxing.

You can add a counterflow heat exchanger for under $1K, and use LN2 for injection cooling, so that in line dewaxing is unnecessary.
 
J

jswick93

Member
My #1 bit of advice is going to be: Absolutely do not buy a cmep-ol for the pump, especially if you are worried about expenses. I am 5k into one that's never been usable. Had it rebuilt by BHOGART and it completely shit itself on the first run. Ran correctly, no vacuum ever, elevated, mol sieve, self draining coil, didn't matter. Without modifications made to the pump, they pretty much are guaranteed to take a shit inside. The Chinese pieces of shit are designed incorrectly. Im even gonna go as far as to say if you care about your product you won't use a cmep-ol without a vented crankcase.
 
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Itsgotatail

Member
I should mention that I'm still just using a TR21, which I just had to rebuild with the x3 piston kit. I probably should have been taking it apart and cleaning it every 5-10 runs. My rig is broken down right now but here are some quick pics of the main manifold and the vacuum manifold. Custom built, thesetook a lot of labor.
 

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Itsgotatail

Member
I'm really thinking that dry ice and methanol/denatured would be a lot easier for me as I can find it locally. Thinking I could set something up to cool at both ends, coming and going from the recovery tank.
 
L

learningta

Member
Itsgotatail said:
I'm really thinking that dry ice and methanol/denatured would be a lot easier for me as I can find it locally. Thinking I could set something up to cool at both ends, coming and going from the recovery tank.
Click to expand...

Whats so bad about this AC unit that you can't get it fixed? Depending on what refrigerant it runs likely just needs an HVAC guy who can recharge it for relatively cheap. IMHO lot of money down the toilet in dry ice and methanol to keep a machine that big cooled down, multiplied by how often you run it.

Peltier concern is going to be getting the right volts/amps to run a 10kW grid of them and the next big problem will be how to get rid of the excess heat. You will likely need something more than just routing the heat thru a water cooler setup to your recovery pot, as you'll probably be generating more heat (both in terms of temperature and wattage) than you can use to offset the enthalpy of evaporation in your recovery pot. The safety concern part of me asks if a Chinese peltier and the cabling to it can be made to be safe enough to use around potentially explosive gas mixtures.

I do think you're on the right path to get rid of the silicone heater and get a water bath or water jacket to heat around the evaporation chamber. Even heat to every square inch possible will improve the system's performance and recovery speed.

As others have mentioned the CMEP is a shitty pump and everything marketing says about it is a lie (ask me how I know). Bhogart is run by people who are at best idiots and I wouldn't trust them to sell you anything much less repair your stuff. If you can possibly do so I'd be looking at a Haskell and a big enough compressor to run it for a rig this big. What are you currently using for a recovery pump and what is the problem you have with it? Note that until your temp control issues are sorted out your pump is going to be working harder to accomplish less.
 
I

Itsgotatail

Member
Thanks so much for The replies guys. I recognize that a lot of this is pretty basic stuff. As I said, I'm really just a hobbiest and only put 8-10 hours/month into this project. But I'm interested in stepping it up.

I currently using a TR21 to recover. I *know* that I'm not heating and cooling enough to make that run anywhere near as well as it could. I also agree that I'd like to cut as many consumables out as possible. My collection pot currently sits in a water bath, with the silicone heater wrapped around that. I believe it's 1200W @220V but will run at 110V(but only 300W?). The collection pot has a spacer under it so that the little submergable pump can push water under the collection spool. 2/3 of the 12x12 collection spool is submerged. The heater band is controlled by a PID and only kicks on about 30-40% of the time when the collection spool is fullest, set at 80F. So I'm not sure if this is the limiting factor. I kind of feel like the cooling of my recovery vapors is more of the issue. The top of my recovery tanks often hits 85-95F, surrounded 2/3 of the way up with regular ice.

I'm sure that GrayWolf was right in saying that I need to be passing more butane over my material, especially if going sub-0... Currently, I do a bottom flood, just until my columns start overflowing. Then I open the columns, let it dump into my collection spool, then let it recover for an hour or so. Then I switch it to top fill, and dump all the butane in my recovery tank over the columns. It's probably not enough though, which could explain my mediocre yields.. AND, I'm dumping hot butane down on that second part.

Often, I'm not even running enough butane in the system. I have a 100# recovery tank but I often only put 20-24lb of butane in because that's all I can afford.

The biggest problem with the AC unit is that it's very heavy. It takes an engine hoist plus 4 guys just to get the frame and AC unit in and out of my pickup. It probably wouldn't be hard to get back running. But it's currently only plumbed to a copper coil within the recovery tank bath. The AC unit was set up running LP gas as a refrigerant. I saw it get the recovery bath down to 5F. Maybe a better refrigerant could get colder. It's a huge full-house unit...maybe 300-400lb. Maybe if I could get it to cool the recovery tank, AND a counterflow heat exchanger AND another heat exchanger between my pump AND recovery tank, it MIGHT be worth fixing. Portability is a major issue though. I'm not blessed with a warehouse space...I have to run this thing on location, which is usually off-grid, running off my 9kW 220/110 generator (another consumable cost), under an EZ-up, on the back corner of a property somewhere. And most of the property owners aren't OK with a system that can't be concealed/moved within an hour's notice. I'm also not crazy about a rig that I can't set up and break down on my own, quickly. Sometimes things get tense, and you just gotta go.
 
I

Itsgotatail

Member
And yeah, I know that a Haskel + compressor is probably one of the best solutions, and it will last forever, but that's like $6k, right?

I've considered just getting 3 TR21/TRS21's and running them together, so if one stops working, there's still two going. A lot of rebuilding, but still probably cheaper for me as I only do 4-8 loads/year right now. Maybe 30-50 if I really get running smoothly. But this last time that the pump broke, mid-cycle, it started leaking so much butane that I could SEE it. Which scared the beck out of me, even with the genny 50ft away and a good breeze. Maybe running off a genny changes a lot of variables. Its probably not how most of y'all are doing it.
 
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Itsgotatail

Member
Also, the reason that the AC unit keeps breaking is because of the jostling in transit, making things shift and crack welds in the copper coil. So yes, an HVAC tech with a torch should be able to fix it for $200-400. But I don't want to have to redo that every time I move the rig.
 
L

learningta

Member
Itsgotatail said:
And yeah, I know that a Haskel + compressor is probably one of the best solutions, and it will last forever, but that's like $6k, right?
Click to expand...

Bhogart lists it at $2999 for the Haskell, new. There's cheaper options used (GW did a rebuild video they're pretty simple to rebuild should you need). IMO you can get a much bigger gas/diesel air compressor for $3k than a Haskell could use all the air out of running balls out, I see towable gas rotary screw air compressors on CL for inside of $2k with some frequency but a gas 10-12 HP piston compressor ought to be plenty enough for a Haskell (think like what you see in the back of service trucks)

There's also an Anion Goliath pump that looks like a clone of the Haskell for <$2k on eBay, new. No idea what build quality or longevity is like on that one, would be interested to hear if anyone on this forum has one.

I've considered just getting 3 TR21/TRS21's and running them together, so if one stops working, there's still two going. A lot of rebuilding, but still probably cheaper for me as I only do 4-8 loads/year right now. Maybe 30-50 if I really get running smoothly. But this last time that the pump broke, mid-cycle, it started leaking so much butane that I could SEE it. Which scared the beck out of me, even with the genny 50ft away and a good breeze. Maybe running off a genny changes a lot of variables. Its probably not how most of y'all are doing it.
Click to expand...

You should have a way to bypass the pump completely in case of another failure like that, that way you could recover your butane passively and not leak it all out.

As I said above unless you can get your evaporation vessel hot and your tank cool simultaneously the pump is going to work harder to accomplish less. Every degree colder you can get that recovery tank will mean faster recovery and faster to go onto the next run. I'd think about how you could keep that tank in a deep freeze or something.
 
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Itsgotatail

Member
I'm a little worried about getting my recovery tank that cold. I think I Read that this model maybe had some issues with the valves getting brittle. Although I suppose I could just use external valves that I don't let get that cold. What about a counterflow heat exchanger coming out of my recovery tank as well as another heat exchanger leaving my pump going into the recovery tank to replace my coil chiller that currently also just sits in ice. Run both heat exchangers with a shared circulating dry ice/alcohol bath? Maybe I could even chill the recovery tank with the same shared coolant? With LN2 I'm worried about getting things too cold. Maybe I could buy heat exhangers that would also work with a refrigerant if I get that AC unit working again? Is that possible? And how big of heat exchangers do I need. I suppose I'd need bigger ones for dry ice/alcohol than for LN2.

As far as that blowout last time, YEAH, that was a good staartle! I'll definitely be building some failsafe mechanisms in now. As well as the bypass you mentioned, I have another 50lb recovery tank that I can keep under vaccum and chilled, maybe even attached at two or more points in the loop, with separate valves so that I can recover passively from different isolated parts of the system if something goes awry.
 
J

Jslump510

New member
I Bottom fill a 6x48 to different levels of tane depending on material column size imma push threw, close it off at bottom and pull recovery off top the column with a cmep 6000 while throttling vacuum with a 24 inch Bfe base to chill my tane kinda rapidly then when psi gets to 3 ish on the 6x48 i dump it threw bottom and use the head pressure from solvent tank to push out the top of the 6x48 inch solvent column, you can pull the ran material back to the 6x48 as well recool it and push threw a filter stack. when i do this it feels creative lol :tiphat:
 
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Itsgotatail

Member
Would a plate style heat exchanger like this work? They seem to come in any size imaginable. Ports look workable without any welding. Just trying to figure out how big of ones I'd need.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00X...r+triclamp&dpPl=1&dpID=21ZtxttJxRL&ref=plSrch


A circulating alcohol glycol coolant seems like a winner for me. I could chill the reservoir with dry ice now and then use that AC unit to chill it later...or just have the refrigerant run through the heat exchanger, if that's possible.
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
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Itsgotatail said:
Would a plate style heat exchanger like this work? They seem to come in any size imaginable. Ports look workable without any welding. Just trying to figure out how big of ones I'd need.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00X...r+triclamp&dpPl=1&dpID=21ZtxttJxRL&ref=plSrch


A circulating alcohol glycol coolant seems like a winner for me. I could chill the reservoir with dry ice now and then use that AC unit to chill it later...or just have the refrigerant run through the heat exchanger, if that's possible.
Click to expand...

Check the rated operating pressure. For LPG it needs to be 350psi minimum.
 
I

Itsgotatail

Member
Yes, I wouldn't order anything without checking psi ratings beforehand. Do you have a preference for these plate style heat exchanger vs. the tube and shell style vs some other style that I'm not seeing out there? There doesn't seem to be a ton of material out there on heat exchangers for this application. I'm guessing I should just order the one with the most internal transfer surface area as I can afford. Many seem to be rated inBTUs but I wouldn't know how to calculate that.
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Itsgotatail said:
Yes, I wouldn't order anything without checking psi ratings beforehand. Do you have a preference for these plate style heat exchanger vs. the tube and shell style vs some other style that I'm not seeing out there? There doesn't seem to be a ton of material out there on heat exchangers for this application. I'm guessing I should just order the one with the most internal transfer surface area as I can afford. Many seem to be rated inBTUs but I wouldn't know how to calculate that.
Click to expand...

A counterflow or a tube and shell will have a higher pressure rating than a plate type. A simple 50' coil of 1/2" 304SS tubing will also have a higher pressure rating.

The way I calculate gross btu rejection capacity, is start with the R-value of the material used and convert that to K-value by dividing (1) one by the R-value (1/R=K). K value is the btu's transfered per square inch, per degree of delta temperature across it, per unit time.
 
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