Question about no-till

Predjee · Nov 30, 2018

Hi all,

There is something i cant wrap my mind to.

It is how i can implement no till farming to my growth style.

Let me explain how i grow now.

I use a container of 1,40M by 1,40M by 0,35M

In it is 500 liter of all mix soil. Wich i prepare with mycorrhiza. I plant my clones with a little scoop of mycorrhiza and thats that. First 3 weeks only water with Bacteria, week 3 till week 6/7/ some bac BIO and bacteria and last 2 weeks flush.

Then i ditch all my soil and buy new one, and the same proces repeats.

Now i am sick and tired of carrying soil, so i want to change things.

At first i wanted to try buffer tabs to re fertilize my soil for the first 3 weeks and do nothing else different, but then i discovered no till.

But what i dont understand is, how do you refertilize your soil if you are not allowed to disturb the soil? I mean; i can drop my trims on the soil, but it will take ages for nature to digest the leaves into nutrients rite?

So can someone give me some tips and pointers, because i have the feeling i am not quite getting it :')

dank.frank · Nov 30, 2018

The rhizosphere is the top few inches of the soil. This is where all the bacteria and fungi intermingle and decompose nutrients. When you top feed, cover with a mulch, you create a moisture barrier. This excess moisture on the surface of the soil allows these beneficial elements to thrive, which in turn creates a rapid decomposition cycle and increases bio-availability of nutrients faster than you'd think.

For a proper no-till system, you need at least 12" of soil depth, as some higher order bacteria need depth to even begin populating and forming colonies.

This is also why people practice living mulches. These mulches form DEEP taproots into the soil that store specific nutrients in their leaves. (dynamic accumulators) Their deep roots pull nutrients from the depths of the soil and return it to the soil surface where the bulk of you beneficial life is. Once trimmed back and allowed to decompose, it's performed the same essential task as tilling / turning the soil.

It's almost like asking how leaves falling from a tree manage to sustain a forest. If you cut down a plant and compost the entire thing, nothing technically ever left the soil. A plant doesn't remove nutrients from the ecosystem unless it is harvested. In a broader sense, it just cycles things.

dank.Frank

Predjee · Nov 30, 2018

Thank you for your answer and explanation Frank

So if i deplete my soil, leave it be and do nothing other then mulch my soil with my old leaves, i should be able to complete a complete new cycle? I cant believe that, so i must be wrong somewhere

dank.frank · Nov 30, 2018

Theoretically, if you aren't harvesting any flowers at all, chop up the plant and then cover it with some mulch, yes, technically, you could grow another round. But, I assume you are harvesting.

You'll need to incorporate organic amendments into things. I made a big post about how to re-amend without guessing, but you need to incorporate soil tests into your gardening practices.

dank.frank said:
One of the things I want to share and develop within this journal is the establishment of a "drug type" cannabis specific N-P-K profile on a per acre basis.

Personally, one of the last big hurdles I see with reusing organic soil, which issues are amplified in a soil bed, is knowing how to properly re-amend the crop after each cycle to ensure a consistent flower. The general "use half original amounts" works but I don't believe it to be the best approach.

That being said, there are a couple of formulas I'm going to use along the way that are essential to this goal.

The first formula, will tell us how much of any given amendment to apply to achieve a desired nutrient level within a known planting area.

[(pounds per acre needed/square foot in an acre) x sq ft to be fertilized] / elemental percentage of fertilizer being applied

Example: A soil test says you need to apply 120 lbs per acre of P. You decide to use steamed bone meal. 2-14-0. Let's assume you have a 2' x 5' soil bed, so 10 sq ft.

[(120 lb/acre / 43,560 sq ft/acre) x 10 sq ft] / 0.14 = 0.1968 lbs of 2-14-0 steamed bone meal to provide 120 lbs of P to the 10 sq ft bed.

However, notice we also applied nitrogen in the bone meal. So that brings us to the second necessary formula, which is a simple 3 part process.

A. weight of fertilizer applied x percent of elemental nutrition
B. Square Foot per acre / square foot fertilized
C. A x B

To continue with the example above, in the process of applying the bone meal to get 120 lbs of P, we also added:

A. 0.1968 lbs bone meal x 0.02 (nitrogen) = 0.0004
B. 43,560 sq ft per acre / 10 sq ft = 4,356
C. 0.004 x 4,356 = 17.424 lbs of N applied

Using this basic approach, I am going to start with a known set of values and then test the soil bed frequently and amend accordingly until I have enough data to establish an optimum amendment process that is truly care free.

When I build the soil, I'll share all the data for the inputs and where things are starting. Let's just say I've learned a few things over the years and it's time to apply some of that knowledge.

The main goal with this project is to increase input efficiency while by default reducing input costs, without, diminishing quality. However, there is zero sense in throwing more at the soil than is necessary.

This is the same process that was used to develop the NSPB mix, except organic options and my own personal knowledge have both improved in the last decade and in some ways I view that mix as obsolete as a result. I think I can develop something more cost effective without diminishing the positive aspects that formula provided.

One of the most common questions I see on organic forums is some version of, "can I sub ____ for ____. It is generally a sourcing issue that prompts such questions.

By sharing these equations, and documenting this process, I hope to give others the tools they need to create mixes that work for them, based on what is available to them. I hope to eliminate the nagging fear of altering a recipe.

I'm using 200-300-250 as my base NPK values to hit at the start of each cycle. Soil tests, will tell me exactly what my pounds per acre is and I can add back to the soil what is needed via select amendments.

This post explains that a bit more:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8363099&postcount=26

Once you get your soil mixed and you learn what your plants are pulling from the soil each cycle, you'll establish a re-amendment mix that you know will be appropriate without having to test each time, you just need to learn how things are performing in the ecosystem you've created.

dank.Frank

dank.frank · Nov 30, 2018

If you need information on how to get started in the first place, this post is over 5 years old:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=258168

dank.Frank

Predjee · Nov 30, 2018

thank you man! This helped a lot! gonna dive into these old posts!

Predjee · Nov 30, 2018

there is only one thing that i dont understand.

if the first few inches is where all the action is happening, why do we need alllllll the other soil then thats below the first few inches?

So far from what i understand is that the nutriants are created by the decomposting of the mulch rite? So the food is coming from above.

dank.frank · Nov 30, 2018

As you pour water over the soil, you're adding hydrogen and not everything forms the proper chemical bonds due to not having enough free positively charged cations to hold the nutrients in place. (this broaches the topic CEC) Also, during periods of higher temps, moisture evaporation, dry spells, etc, these beneficial elements retreat into the depths of the soil. They also don't necessarily reproduce in the same environment in which they feed.

Not all nutrients come directly from raw organic inputs. Nutrition in the proper ionic form for uptake may be the result of one bacterial species eating another and the waste byproduct is plant available nutrition. These shifts in bacterial and fungal competition are spurred by the plant, via root exudates. The organic chemicals, acids, and hormones are literal instruction sets that tell the soil what to do and how to function in order to met the plants needs. The plant and the soil have a symbiotic relationship, if we simply learn to remove ourselves from the equation as much as possible.

That doesn't begin to address fungal pathways that are the nutrient distribution centers of the soil food web, which can run throughout the entire soil system. I can't say precisely why we "need" the rest of the soil, other than to say, this is simply how nature works.

dank.Frank

paradoxlost · Nov 30, 2018

dank.frank said:
The rhizosphere is the top few inches of the soil. This is where all the bacteria and fungi intermingle and decompose nutrients. When you top feed, cover with a mulch, you create a moisture barrier. This excess moisture on the surface of the soil allows these beneficial elements to thrive, which in turn creates a rapid decomposition cycle and increases bio-availability of nutrients faster than you'd think.

For a proper no-till system, you need at least 12" of soil depth, as some higher order bacteria need depth to even begin populating and forming colonies.

This is also why people practice living mulches. These mulches form DEEP taproots into the soil that store specific nutrients in their leaves. (dynamic accumulators) Their deep roots pull nutrients from the depths of the soil and return it to the soil surface where the bulk of you beneficial life is. Once trimmed back and allowed to decompose, it's performed the same essential task as tilling / turning the soil.

It's almost like asking how leaves falling from a tree manage to sustain a forest. If you cut down a plant and compost the entire thing, nothing technically ever left the soil. A plant doesn't remove nutrients from the ecosystem unless it is harvested. In a broader sense, it just cycles things.

dank.Frank

thats not what a rhizosphere is

Teddybrae · Nov 30, 2018

Yes, the mass of soil is a heat sink and a reservoir for water.

Like yourself I grow in large pots and replacing the soil each season is hard work. this year I have introduced worms to work thru the soil for me. As I feed the worms (Lucerne mulch, eg) they till and convert mulch into rich soil. I think the quality of the mulch used will determine the ONGOING health of the soil.

cheers!

Predjee · Dec 1, 2018

Thank you for your answers guy's

I am slowly working trough all the new information you are giving me every spare minute i have ;-)

Unfortunately i am not native english and there are some language barriers

Sometimes the translation and/or definition makes no sense to me.

Frank, could you clear this up for me?

When you talk about incorporating organic amendments, do you mean adding extra's apart from the mulch? For example extra nutriants or other chemicals that signal the plant to act or behave in a certain way? Like adding chemicals to stimulate the plant for extra root growth etc?

When i translate amendments and look up the dutch definition of the outcome, i come up with organic 'bondings'

But organic bondings is quite a broad definition.

Edit:

Ok i made a huge edit and it disapeared. In short:

Read trough your 5y old post.
If no till means not disturbing your soil. And your cycle ends, your soil is depleted.

You made a recipe to reuse your soil correct? But how do you add the 'ingredients' of your 'recipe' if the whole idea is not disturbing your soil. Surely your mulch alone is not enough for the next round, otherwhise, you would not have added your 'ingredients' of the recipe in the first place.

Also when reusing soil you first need to know what is depleted or 'lost' from the soil. Thus: we do a soil test.
But to do a soil test, and know its precise values i can only think of a laboratorium.

That means removing soil and send it for inspection. Also disturbing the soil. Apart from that, i am only a home grower man

i cant send soil to laboratoriums haha. I only use 132 USGAL of soil

That's on a space of 24.21 Square Feet (if i calculate correct) I also use a tent with 64 Square Feet, but the principle is the same.

Or am i thinking wrong about this? I mean, in theory i could send soil to a laboratorium, but there surely is a easier way to test the soil?

Predjee · Dec 1, 2018

Microbeman · Dec 1, 2018

The Rhizosphere is actually wherever there is a root-soil interface which involves pockets of moisture called the soil solution. It is within these pockets that nutrients are (exchanged) taken up by the roots.

The surface area is called the detritusphere and there are many roots present there but roots do extend deep into the soil. In the detritusphere organic matter is rapidly degraded by specialized microorganisms. The compounds created are passed into deeper regions of the soil by complexes of microorganisms and water.

I wrote a post 'Living Soil' but I could not search it out. Success in container no-till depends on a good initial soil structure. The most important component in my opinion is varying drainage material. Some which will last years, some that will degrade slowly, some big, some small.

Another important item is large containers, which you have. You should read many of the good threads on no-till which will answer some of your questions.

Limeygreen · Dec 1, 2018

I have 65 gallons of soil in a bed and I send it for testing, random samples grid pattern just like a farm field or yard. Just because you're in a pot doesn't mean you can't send a sample, if I wanted I could send from a 2 gallon pot as well, most places just need half a cup to one cup of soil.

Predjee · Dec 1, 2018

Thanks microbeman. Limeygreen i understand what you are saying

Microbeman; Any topic in particulair you would tag as a absolute must read? And could you give some examples of drainage material out of the top of your head i could read into? I only use perlite at the moment. But that comes standard with the soil i buy from the growshop.

St. Phatty · Dec 1, 2018

Microbeman said:
The Rhizosphere is actually wherever there is a root-soil interface which involves pockets of moisture called the soil solution. It is within these pockets that nutrients are (exchanged) taken up by the roots.

The surface area is called the detritusphere and there are many roots present there but roots do extend deep into the soil. In the detritusphere organic matter is rapidly degraded by specialized microorganisms. The compounds created are passed into deeper regions of the soil by complexes of microorganisms and water.

I wrote a post 'Living Soil' but I could not search it out.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964

maybe

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=269077

Microbeman · Dec 1, 2018

St. Phatty said:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964

maybe

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=269077

Nope

Microbeman · Dec 1, 2018

Predjee said:
Thanks microbeman. Limeygreen i understand what you are saying

Microbeman; Any topic in particulair you would tag as a absolute must read? And could you give some examples of drainage material out of the top of your head i could read into? I only use perlite at the moment. But that comes standard with the soil i buy from the growshop.

I'm sorry I missed this message earlier. I'm dictating into my phone so there could be errors. The examples I would give for drainage material would be at pumice or lava rock same thing of different sizes or in my case I had Benz that were permanently set up so I didn't worry about weight so I used pea pea gravel. My hypothesis with pea gravel was that the various colors represented different minerals which would be released into the soil over a period of years. Also on top of that use some well composted wood chips or bits or pieces or bark. Just be absolutely certain that it has been well aged or composted otherwise it will lock up your nutrients and your plants will suffer. The reason for this is that the microorganisms will have the task of breaking down the uncalm posted fiber and they will use all of the available nitrogen in the soil for this task. For fuel if you know what I mean.

I see that there are some interesting errors which will make for some interesting reading I guess

Microbeman · Dec 1, 2018

In my last post when I said on top of I don't actually mean on top of I just mean in addition to.

dank.frank · Dec 1, 2018

I've heard that pea pea gravel has excessive levels of nitrogen.

I'll see myself out.

To answer the questions from you previous post about things not translating:

Organic amendments - fertilizers essentially, but that is not an accurate enough way of saying it. Some raw organic materials (amendments) have very low levels of plant nutrition, yet they may contribute something to the soil or foster bacterial or fungal activity, so are an important addition to the ecosystem as a whole, not necessarily as fertilizer though. So amendments is a better description. This would be things like blood meal, bone meal, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab meal, guanos, rock dusts and limestones (minerals), shell flours, etc, etc, etc.

As far as soil testing goes, yes, you need a lab to do it. It makes a difference. If you learn to read the plant, it can be your guide, but it helps to have quantitative data as a metric to explain what you see happening. I use local universities to test my soil when I need a quick look, but send to more adapt labs when I need to really establish something. This can range from $12 - $80 depending on what I'm having done.

Size of the grow is not a relative factor for me. I want to produce the absolute best cannabis possible. Data driven metrics help me achieve that. My garden is only 2.5' x 5' with 2 x 315w lamps. Certainly not anything remotely commercial. My soil bed is about 50 gallons of soil. I hope that helps put somethings in perspective for you.

dank.Frank

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