large-ish scale outdoor---building living soil

milkyjoe · Apr 1, 2016

So lets go ahead and knock out the exchangeable cations, Ca, Mg and K. Your Na is in the lowish range of acceptable so we are going to ignore it.

First the formula to calculate lbs per acre is the tcec x % of the cation you want x Meq for that cation. Meq for Ca is 400, for Mg 240 and for K 780.

So for the traditional Albrecht ratio...68% Ca, 12% Mg and 5% K. Your tcec is 17.74 so here are the calcs for how many lbs per acre you would want if you pick the traditional Albrecht ratios:
Ca...0.68 x 400 x 17.74 (tcec) = 4825 lbs per acre...and for some reason (I failed to notice earlier) logan has reported yours in ppm instead of lbs per acre...so 4825/2 =2412 ppm. You can see that is the desired value Logan reported...we, however, are going to work in lbs per acre...so 4825 lbs per acre.
Mg...0.12 x240 x 17.74 = 511 lbs per acre...255 ppm (again what Logan recommends)
K...0.05 x 780 x 17.74 = 691 lbs per acre... 345 ppm...so working backwards Logan is recommending 276 ppm x 2 = 552 lbs per acre/ 780x17.74 = 4% K saturation.

milkyjoe · Apr 1, 2016

It also means I screwed up my math in the P part...that P2O5 is also ppm. So your P is double what I said. So you probably cannot get myco infection. So I would now say Trichoderma in the starter mix.

DOH...I should fucking pay attention and read the labels vs assuming I know

milkyjoe · Apr 1, 2016

That is beyond good news oct...you have a ton of organic N. A 20:1 C:N ratio is ideal. You do not need to add N at all this yr.

just to double check...your bottom leaves, at least the ones out in the sun finished green last year, right?

And no worries about the math...easy enough to redo. And just me assuming I knew something I did not...again.

So 104/807 = .129 acres.

You ought to build bigger pots next yr and use the rest of this most excellent soil

edit...Virtually no Nitrate N...that is so good. You have a chance to get the plant to take up microbal metabolites of N instead of Nitrate. That will save your plants a ton of energy cause they do not need to convert NO3 to protein. It also makes your S less of an issue. Nice

oct · Apr 1, 2016

Well thats great news. Blind luck. My plants finished nicely last year. Good color through flower with a slight fade towards the very end. They stayed green longer into flower last year than prior years. Mid august a deficiency popped up on some of them, nothing too crazy. I thought maybe it was Ca but I don't know. I was doing some foliars trying to correct it, but with my water being off and me not knowing it, I was probably chasing my tail.

I'm gonna use a lot of my leftover dirt for a dep this year. I would have totally built bigger beds but the state changes canna laws more than they change their undies at this point. I'm hesitant to overhaul anything because of it.

milkyjoe · Apr 1, 2016

Yea, we are really going to be doing minor tweaks. The real advantage will come from managing your microbes better.

So let's do the calcs for orech's proven OR formula...72% Ca, 12% Mg, 6% K. I am totally down with the Ca bump. The K bump I am not so sure. Graeme Sait makes the claim that K ppm should equal Mg ppm, in which case you need a really small bump in K.

However I have not achieved those ratios yet so I have no personal experience. I plan to give it a shot this summer though...just haven't taken soil samples yet.

So 72% Ca...0.72 x 400 x 17.74 = 5109 lbs per acre = 2554 ppm Ca
Mg...no change plus you are over, so not gonna amend for Mg at all
K...6% x 780 x 17.74 = 830 lbs per acre...415 ppm

milkyjoe · Apr 1, 2016

And while I am thinking about it I would go no till this yr. Maybe just scratch the amendments in a couple of inches. I base this on how low the amends are gonna be and the fact that I do not want to take a chance on oxidizing that organic N...that is turning organic N into NO3 caused by exposing it to oxygen from the tilling process

milkyjoe · Apr 1, 2016

So here we go where not everyone follows the same calculations...(and yes, I know Logan uses volume vs weight, but the ratios work out anyway because they also under report tcec).

I turn lbs per acre into lbs per yard simply by dividing by 807 yards per acre furrow slice.

So Ca needed is either: Albrecht ratios is 222 lbs per yard (simply double the 111 ppm they reported) or b) 5109 lbs calculated above - 4602 reported = 507 lbs per acre.

So per yard 222/807 = 0.28 lbs per yard for Albrecht or
507/807 = 0.63 lbs per yard for Orech

Since I honestly prefer Orech's number lets figure out how much of what to use

The way I see it there are two good choices. If we aren't going to make bigger adjustments to K then I think we should use gypsum (CaSO4) which is 20% Ca...so 0.63/0.20=3.15 lbs of gypsum per yard, call it 3 to make it easy. So 6 lbs of gypsum per bed.

If we are going to raise K we can get SO4 by using K2SO4. So instead of gypsum I would recommend using Wollastonite...Vansil W10. It is 34% Ca and 51.5% SiO2...we can push your 33 ppm Silicon up towards 50 ppm.

So 0.63/.34= 1.8 lbs per yard or 3.6 lbs per bed.

You can get Vansil 10 through Custom Hydro Nutrients...https://customhydronutrients.com/ze...n_description=1&keyword=Vansil+W+10&x=36&y=10 And for the sake of full disclosure the owner is a personal friend of mine...but please don't hold that against him

edit...Mg and Na we are not going to adjust so no use talking about them any more.

milkyjoe · Apr 1, 2016

That leaves us with K. I would rule out the Graeme Sait number simply because I would prefer to give you something proven to work vs something I feel may be better but have not tested myself.

So the absolutely proven one is orech's 6%...830 lbs per acre. 830-552/807= 0.34 lbs K per yard of soil. K2SO4 is 50% K...so 0.68 lbs of K2SO4 per yard or 1.4 lbs per bed.

Ima quit for today and hopefully there will be discussion.

But in summary I would recommend the Vansil W 10 and a fairly coarse grind of K2SO4...coarse to slow down the availability.

oct · Apr 2, 2016

Hell yeah I'm all ears. Those recommendations sound great to me. I'll hop on that website later. You da man!

orechron · Apr 2, 2016

I'd second Sait being on point for K. I did have rows that were in the 3-4% range for K but they were certainly the ones that had sap pH drop first late in the season. I think with 6% you're going to be doing well if you don't leech and if you do it might drop to 4-5% late in the game which is also ok because you will be guaranteeing no antagonism with Ca. Extra K is easy to foliar if you need a bump.

48 medical and those 4 extra recreational plants, nice. I forgot up until recently that I can throw 4 more in my room. Oct, do you think that they will inspect this year? Apparently 12 compliance officers were hired for the whole state. At that number they might be able to check 5-10% of the gardens this year?

Galt · Apr 2, 2016

milkyjoe said:
That may be low enough to allow you to infect your roots with myco (amf) fungi which I feel would be a very beneficial thing to do. I would give it a shot.

That means as part of your starter fert you will add myco fungi. So Mycogenesis (which also contains the same bacteria as Spectrum) from Tainio, Bio Coat Gold from AEA (it is sold as a seed starter but it is mostly myco fungi) or tons of other stuff out there.

It also means we don't want to use HyperCaP in the starter as the Pacid itself would be hard on the mycos putting them into dormancy until the plant took up the P from the acid.

In my pots that have double this P I have never been able to get the myco to infect my roots as seen by the lack of dreadlock roots when I pull them up immediately on cutting. So what I have chosen to do this year is use Trichoderma (Root Shield) instead of myco fungi. The two do not play well together so one or the other...btw Great White combines the two, how does that work?

Anyways, I would give myco a shot this yr and see if you get dreads. If not next yr you can switch to trichoderma.

@Joe (thought you may be interested).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769820/

This study on tomatoes shows that T. Harzianum is compatible with AMF and had no inhibitory effects on the development of mycorrhizal colonization. It concludes that dual inoculation of T. Harzianum and AMF, contrary to previous reports, is recommended as it "significantly enhances growth" and disease control.

I've also read a couple of other studies that conclude the co-inoculation of bioinoculants like P. fluorescens and T. viride with AMF promotes higher AM colonization and spore number enhancing nutrient acquisition especially phosphorous, producing plant growth hormones resulting in improvement of rhizospheric condition of soil.

Avenger · Apr 2, 2016

https://www.researchgate.net/public...t_in_melon_plants_grown_in_seedling_nurseries

oct · Apr 2, 2016

Joe that site you linked me is awesome. Such fair prices and no bullshit or flashy designer bottles. Just real products at an affordable price.

I'll put my order in there on monday.

Edit: And bear with me. After you or orech write a post, I go back through and decipher it in laymans terms and it takes me a little while. I'm not familiar with a lot of the abbreviations or terms (but will be soon).

I'm really trying to get a handle on my water atm. What good does anything else really do if that is fuckered up.

milkyjoe · Apr 2, 2016

So hold off on the order till we get micros figured out, I will try to get to it today or tomorrow. You might as well get the micros from him to and maybe a bag of emergeny N...check out Ferti Nitro on his site which is my favorite

I have been blessed with excellent water so I have never had to treat. Orech or Avenger are going to be your best bet on the specifics of how to get that done. And trust me Avenger is a great guy to have watching the thread, he has a lot of knowledge

milkyjoe · Apr 2, 2016

Galt said:
@Joe (thought you may be interested).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769820/

This study on tomatoes shows that T. Harzianum is compatible with AMF and had no inhibitory effects on the development of mycorrhizal colonization. It concludes that dual inoculation of T. Harzianum and AMF, contrary to previous reports, is recommended as it "significantly enhances growth" and disease control.

I've also read a couple of other studies that conclude the co-inoculation of bioinoculants like P. fluorescens and T. viride with AMF promotes higher AM colonization and spore number enhancing nutrient acquisition especially phosphorous, producing plant growth hormones resulting in improvement of rhizospheric condition of soil.

Thanks for the info. Not exactly bro science you are sharing, I will be stalking your posts now. This is why I like to give info freely, you never know what is coming back to you.

And maybe I owe an apology to Great White.

My main concern is that when the plant has all of the P it needs available in ionic form it stops exuding myco food and the myco go dormant. When we have 300+ P2O5 showing up on a Mehlich test I think we have reached that situation. But I could be wrong about that also.

milkyjoe · Apr 2, 2016

And I forgot...what is that soil made out of? Is it peat, compost, drainage? Or does it have some actual field soil in it?

I ask so I can estimate weight of your soil for the parts per million calculation.

Better yet, if you wanna get real sciency, would be for you to take about a kilo and a 1/2 and dry it out in an oven. Then take a kilo of dried material and measure how much volume it takes to hold that kilo. That way I can: a) figure out how kg one of your 2 yards pots weighs and b) since parts per million = mg/kg I can do the math pretty easy.

But either way will work.

btw...here are Graeme Sait's micro recommendations, the top number is as high as he goes regardless of P values:

Boron (Hot CaCl2) 1 -3 ppm
Iron (DTPA) 40-200 ppm
Manganese (DTPA) 30 -100 ppm
Copper (DTPA) 2 – 7 ppm
Zinc (DTPA) 5 -10 ppm
Molybdenum (Nitric Acid) 0.5 – 2 ppm
Cobalt (Nitric Acid) 2 – 40 ppm
Selenium (Nitric Acid) 0.6 – 2 ppm

orechron · Apr 3, 2016

You might want to consider going higher on Manganese than what I recommended eventually. I didn't know Sait's range for it was that high. Astera recommends Mn being 1/2 of Iron if I remember right so that would put you at 90ish ppm. I said 50 because I've personally seen really good results when it gets up there but I've never pushed soil levels beyond that. I think HumphryDavy was playing around with really high micro levels but maybe it was just Zinc. I don't know what the results of his trials are yet, hopefully he chimes in.

milkyjoe · Apr 3, 2016

AEA also recommends 90 and they really push getting it up there.

oct · Apr 3, 2016

Thanks Joe. I've been on the road today. Got about another 5 hours. The lady is up in IKEA tryin to buy the whole damn store right now.

I'll wait until were wrapped up before I put in an order at customhydro

My soil is mainly peat. But a good portion of it is 5-6 years old. A lot of my dirt looks like humus vs. what soil you'd see at a yard usually looks like. I have a lot less drainage material in my mix compared to most mixes I see also. I haven't added any drainage material in 3 years. No compost besides a little ewc and a few bags of oly fish have ever been put in there (I only used 2 bags of oly per plant as a top dress mid season last year). Like over the 5 years of having that dirt almost zero compost has touched it. I just always mixed about 6 types of meals in there, tilled it up and called it good.

I'll read your post about drying in the oven again tmrw and see about doing that.

I'd love some input on my water avenger if you've got time.

Thanks guys

Avenger · Apr 3, 2016

Your water isn't that hard really.

Alk Calc says 0.43 mL of 35% sulfuric acid per gallon will neutralize enough of the bicarbonates to get the pH down to 6.4. This amount of sulfuric acid adds ~ 16 ppm S to the water. Add this amount to the 5.6 ppm already in the water and you would be adding ~5 lbs/acre inch of irigation. Or approximately 121.44 lbs sulfur per acre per season (assuming you irrigate ~24 acre/inches per season)

At a pH of 6.4 your water would have ~112 pmm HCO3, down from 174 ppm. Or 25.76 lbs/acre inch down from 39.55 pounds of bicarbonate per acre inch in your raw water.

If you drop the pH to 5.8, using ~0.90 mL/gallon 35% sulfuric, this adds ~34ppm S. Add the 5.6 ppm in the raw water and the pounds of sulfur added per acre inch of water goes to ~9.1, or 218.6 pounds per acre per year of Sulfur added from the treated irrigation water.

At a pH of 5.8 your water would have ~46.2 pmm HCO3, down from 174 ppm. Or 10.63 lbs/acre inch down from 39.55 pounds of bicarbonate per acre inch in your raw water.

Sulfuric acid is easy to find and relatively cheap. It can be bought at most any auto parts store, and most lowes or home depots. Virgin battery electrolyte will generally be 33-36% sulfuric acid. Its faily safe to handle, but you still do not want to get it in your eyes or to contact soft tissue.
Always add acid to water, never add water to acid.

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