Top-feeding only... why I like it.

SpaaaceCowboy said:

Question: The seabird guano is in pelletized form...After I watered the pellets did not seem to break down at all...Is that normal ? Are they supposed to break down gradually ?
What do you think of running those pellets through a coffee grinder first, and then topdressing ? Seem to me that it would be like an instant shot of goodness to the plant.

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I've used NPK organic pellets in this season, no need to grind them IMHO after a few watering cycles they'll break down no worry.
I prefer to leave them intact so the feeding is more gradual.
Mind that this stuff last for some weeks, so don't overdo.

Peace

=K

Thanks everyone for this great thread, just read thru, check back later for further info.

SpaaaceCowboy said:

CC....I just topdressed for the first time...It's the start of week 3 of flowering...

I topdressed with 1 tbsp. of Seabird Guano, and 1/2 tsp. of kelp meal...

Question: The seabird guano is in pelletized form...After I watered the pellets did not seem to break down at all...Is that normal ? Are they supposed to break down gradually ?
What do you think of running those pellets through a coffee grinder first, and then topdressing ? Seem to me that it would be like an instant shot of goodness to the plant.

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i use a mortar and pestle to make it a powder. so far so good.

Krull said:

I've used NPK organic pellets in this season, no need to grind them IMHO after a few watering cycles they'll break down no worry.
I prefer to leave them intact so the feeding is more gradual.
Mind that this stuff last for some weeks, so don't overdo.

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Its important to keep in mind as well that some life forms in the soil system like different things than others. Mycellium likes very hot food sources that would burn a plant, especially manures. They will colonize a pellet better than dust spread into the soil.

I have a plant 2 or 3 weeks into veg...She's lookin' a little light green...Any suggestions what would be good for a top dress containing or mostly nitrogen ?

I have some alfalfa meal...I think it's 2-0-0...But I heard that alfalfa meal is hot....Would that be OK to use, or would something else better ?

thanks, SC

Mulch in alfalfa if you have it. I've grown a lot of tomatoes using grasses as mulch and you just mainly have to keep it from getting up against the stem too much since it can get fairly warm or even hot while breaking down, as long as you keep it damp. Manures usually provide good N too, and worm castings are always a good choice. Blood meal can work if you need it fast, but use it carefully. I personally use urine if my plants are getting n deficient, but I haven't had to for quite some time because I make my own compost and lack of nitrogen is absolutely never an issue. Too much occasionally is though. If you don't use any sort of wood chip mulch I would recommend you give it a try. Try to get natural forest mulch, and not anything that is treated with herbicides or dyes. Pine bark also works but I like forest mulch better. Just top dress right on top of it, and the fungal colonies in the wood chips will grow up into the food you add and draw it's goodies down into the soil. The chips help enormously with keeping the moisture more even from top of planter to the bottom, and they also keep that crust from forming that soil so often gets when left bare.

Alright... I think I should expand on this method a bit. I will be showing my personal disdain for rich soils, which sounds strange to some of you, but there's a good reason I despise rich organic soil mixes.

When I run into trouble in my garden, I always end up meditating on what nature would do. On the topic of soils and organic plant nutrition, I also look to nature for answers.

Let me ask you a question... When's the last time you noticed a soil in nature that was all mixed up with feather meal, compost, bat guanos, blood meal, bone meal, kelp meal, etc? I can answer that for you... there's pretty much ZERO chance that you will ever find such a situation in nature... unless there was a landslide at a garden center.

So... where do plants access these kinds of nutrient sources? At the soil surface, where these things are dropped naturally over time. This is, of course the topic of this entire thread, but I thought I should be a little more precise about how to supercharge the process and to help anyone trying this method to avoid unforeseen issues. The worst issues I have seen with top feeding have come from the use of rich, organic soils. Matter of fact, I've NEVER liked rich, organic soils mixed with meals and guanos, ever! It's not natural at all, and if your light source is very strong, you can demand way more from the organic process in the soil than it can keep up with. These are reasons why people think organics produce smaller yields than chem ferts. NOT TRUE. My biggest yields have been via feeding the organic process... top feeding on lean soil mixes.

Here's how I mix my soils nowadays: ProMix with Mycorrhizae, a little rock dust and a little earth worm casting.

In nature, plants access many micronutrients via rocks and sand. The only way compost reaches the root zone in nature is by worms going to the surface, eating stuff up there, and then shitting it out in the root zone, which is why I feel good using EWC in my nearly soiless mix. That's all... a tiny amount of rock dust and earth worm castings. Nothing more. Everything else will be grabbed from the surface, where I top feed the system.

This soil mix allows the water in the root zone to remain largely pure and delicious to the plant. The water in the root zone is at MUCH less of a risk of running into pH imbalance issues than with richly-amended soil. The mycorrhizae will quickly spread its tendrils throughout the root zone and create highways from the surface, where the food source will be dropped. The mycorrhizae will do the heavy lifting of delivering the top fed nutrients to the roots at all levels in the root zone. A very light feeding of molasses or fish emulsion from time to time will certainly do nothing but good for the system, but I suggest doing this once or twice ONLY throughout the entire life of a regular-sized indoor lady. A healthy root zone actually needs no help at all from emulsions or molasses, it's just a little treat for the bacteria.

As for mulch... I've honestly not used mulches, but I've certainly been considering doing so. Wood chips seem to be the ticket, IMO. They will protect the organic material on the surface of the soil from drying out too quickly, etc. Great thing to do, but I have not needed it in the past. I guess it depends on the conditions at the surface of your soil. Big, bushy plants provide lots of shade on the soil surface, making mulch less necessary for this method. But small plants which allow lots of light and wind across the soil surface will probably benefit GREATLY from an effective mulch material.

That's my latest $0.02 on the topic. I hope it helps someone.

cc

The reason why so many people think organic soil does not yield well is simple. Most people do not properly mineralize their soil nor do they allow for sufficient decomposition prior to planting. Instead, they plant right into it and expect it to compete with their previous soilless grows using soluble fertilizers. Forget apples to oranges, that's apples to acorns. Two totally different things.

If you think custom soils cannot yield as well as "lean" soils top dressed I would have to believe then you were observing poorly built soils, CC. That point is just flat out wrong. If you like top dressing, cool but lets not misrepresent other aspects to make that point. Its likely you witnessed what I mentioned before, soils that were amended "richly" as you might call it but without sufficient decomposition time.

What you have then is a soil containing potential nutrition but needing time in order for that to become plant available. Planting into a mix like that on a short indoor cycle, with no soluble fertilizer inputs, is likely to disappoint. Reuse that soil and I bet you notice a significantly different outcome than round 1.

As for the notion that "it's not natural" and thus bad, I'm sorry but is that a joke? Where do plants in nature get a comfy 75 degrees, 55% RH at all times? This is a slippery slope, CC. The indoor environment is inherently artificial and 'unnatural' so I don't understand how or why people draw imaginary lines as to what is not natural enough and what just makes the grade. It's a joke, frankly.

To criticize the use of, in essence, super charging a soil to utilize benefits from a variety of inputs which is like taking the best natural soil and improving it still, because it doesn't naturally occur like that... well, it's just beyond silly because there are so many other things involved that are similarly unlikely to occur in nature so why draw the line at such an arbitrary point, because it suits your contrived narrative related to top dressing? C'mon man.

To be clear, I am a proponent of top dressing. I've utilized it in my garden for many, many years. I just don't see the need to present the technique in competition with other methods that also work well. Particularly when other methods are being misrepresented to make the point. Lets be logical about this, eh?

what a good fucking post , post of the week , lot of lifes lessons right here in this post

Crazy Composer said:

As an extreme example, I've seen healthy plants grown in LITERALLY straight chicken manure. Poorly composted, dry hunks, etc. The smell of the terpenes were AMAZING! It was a room full of Sweet Pink Grapefruit, and the room smelled EXACTLY like a warm warehouse stacked to the rafters with fresh grapefruit boxes. Amazing. But, the smoke was harsh. The plants showed some signs of pH flux, but overall the plants were surprisingly happy being is straight up chicken shit! The experiment taught me a lot! Actually, this was many years ago... when the dude told me he used straight chicken shit, I was ready to watch them curl and die! But that didn't happen. So surprised. We learn the best lessons from witnessing extreme examples like this.

At the other extreme of my plant growing experiences was the time I threw a single Sharon White Widow clone in some sandy soil, between two groves of White Pines. I gave her ZERO ANYTHING! I came back in the autumn and found that she had barely grown. I got about 1/4 oz from her. But let me tell ya somethin', that was THE BEST smoke I've EVER had in my life. Tasted like pine, burnt better than a dream, and the stone was off the charts, from my own experiences anyway.

So, the two examples, both polar opposites, can be seen as one understanding of nutrition and the effects on both growth potential and smoke quality. For me, I grow weed to smoke it, not to weigh it. However, it has always been my quest to be equally impressed by both the weight AND the smoking experience of indoor, organically-grown cannabis... This is my Holy Grail of indoor cannabis growing, and of course, I'm still looking for better polishes to use on that Grail, to get it to shine ever brighter. Always searching. Always looking for opportunities to identify that my current ideas are flawed, so I can move upward from those understandings. I LOVE being wrong! It means a new opportunity to know better has just showed itself. Ego and pride ARE deadly sins after all! Deadly to one's personal evolution. They stagnate a person, lock them into inferior understandings.

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rasputin, you seem to have added intention to my statement. I didn't say unnatural was bad. I said I'm taking my que from nature. I now despise these soils myself, but not because they're no good at feeding the plants. And BTW... if we are to be honest, there is NO true organic growing indoors. However, I have noticed over the years that the closer I mimic the food cycle of a natural setting, the better the smoke is.

Now, if a grower can simply and inexpensively use a super lean soil mix and just top feed, why not? Why have all that mineral packed into a soil mix when the plant will never use it all, but WILL still be uptaking these minerals at harvest time? A soil that continues to provide nutrient at harvest time is a hampering agent against smoking quality. In nature, the soil is generally tired and not providing much nutrient to the plant by autumn/harvest time. And, since I grow to smoke the herb, not to stand back and appreciate how well-fed the plant is, I prefer to grow in lean soils that will -again- mimic the tired and depleted soils in nature during the autumn. The VERY best herb I've ever smoked was grown in poor, sandy soil, never fed. The plant was small, but was absolutely heavenly to smoke. The amazing quality was due to the LACK of available nutrients at harvest time. Good luck building a soil that is perfectly depleted in the exact week you need to harvest. The trick has always been (for myself)... provide everything the plant needs to yield like a beast, while also being able to starve the plant before harvest. Rich soils don't seem to be able to achieve both goals. The quality of the cannabis is always relative to one's own experiences... My experiences show that the grossest herb I've ever smoked was "organic" herb grown in rich soil by someone who -themselves- thought the herb was great. It's all relative to individual opinion, no need to argue that point here.

For achieving large yields AND clean smoke, top feeding on lean soils has been superior to all other indoor organic styles I have witnessed in either my own garden or any other I have seen. And remember... I don't grow to SEE my plants, I grow to smoke them... so let's not talk about how awesome rich soils are at growing monster plants that I'd pass up in a smoking circle due to harshness. There are plenty of people who have come to the same conclusion as myself, and this info here is for those who are looking for another way to grow "organically" indoors, AND harvest truly enjoyable, smooth-burning product. I have yet to smoke (what I consider to be) excellent herb from rich soil. I'm sure there are some folks who've figured out EXACTLY how much of what to put into a certain amount of soil per plant under a certain amount of artificial light in order to perfectly feed the plant for a perfect amount of time to yield big, AND clean buds... But let's be honest here... that's rare as hell.

What I see with most grows in these soils is... a soil that is still feeding way too much to the plant by harvest time. This is not a secret, it is a real bane to connoisseur growers' goals. How to be organic, indoors, and still harvest large amounts of truly connoisseur-level clean-burning herb. This thread tackles this conundrum... NOT a "more superior way to get nutrients into plants", but a way to grow organically indoors, while being able to FLUSH, or completely starve/clean the plants prior to harvest. cc

CC

Great thread I appreciate all the info your experience an opinions aswell as others

The details an reasons of how an why are great . I think life an gardening is a do what works for you an dont be afraid to try new things

This recent topic of a super charged soil vs plain soil or litely amended medium is one i can relate to . I've had Nevilles haze outdoor in an amended soil blend an one in a plain soil side by side . The taste were identical .

The best outdoor herb I've had was purple wreck in plain soil . Effects and taste were A+ this was thought of by some smokers of 20+ years to be some of the best herb they ever smoked

I've recently watched an interview on youtube with subcool / mzjill / ringo / dj short

Excuse my misspelling or mis quoting but dj short said he grew his outdoors plants in native soil . As we know he is all about organic an superior taste an effects

Coming from a sicilian background also my grandfather was a farmer as a kid I recall turning the dirt for the veggie garden 2-3 times a year but adding nothin an having amazing veggies an flowers . Also a fig tree that was 20 plus years old

Just my experience

Thanks again to all for there contributions


1luvbigherb

Great posts, fantastic thread.

I have had old school growers that grow dank outdoor that say rich soil is the way to go. Then at harvest use a flushing agent even with organics. Best of both worlds? When he said this to me, I didn't know what to think.

CC, Rasputin?

Bulldog, I personally don't like clearing agents. As you can see, I'd rather just let the soil BE clear by harvest time. But to each his own, yeah?

bigherb said:

I've recently watched an interview on youtube with subcool / mzjill / ringo / dj short

Excuse my misspelling or mis quoting but dj short said he grew his outdoors plants in native soil . As we know he is all about organic an superior taste an effects

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I can't imagine DJ is about taste after seeing and smoking some of the flowers being offered at his booth during last years San Berdoo HT cup. It ALL was harvested early and untrimmed... If hay was the smell/taste he was after then he reached his goal LOL

It was like he had the entire bottom shelf of a crappy dispensary LOL

ya got starve them ladies , i learned this trick on tomatos first.
CC explains it well , the best weed IS the scraggly looking starved to death most people would look and pass on it but it smokes the best weed lol
but ya want alot of it so ya throw ferts on it and ruin it lol . its so funny .i thought my weed was great the first 15 years i grew till i smoked some good organic flushed icmag weed with a member . that was the last day i ever used a chem fert. then i started doing experiments cause i had nothiong else to do. and low and behold the best weed was the abandoned left alone plant in crappy soil , organic but not amended and such. i belived the hype and,used chem ferts and had the most beautiful buds ever lol and they smoked better than any weed i could get but i thought it was supposed to make ya cough . i had never ever smoked such smoothe weed that didnt make ya cough, so ever since that daY i smoked a doob that had zero cough factor i was on the quest to grow the smoothest weed ever. and in my quest to find the smootheness i found the flavor factor goes up also when ya cut out the food. so there is a fine line between getting the best yeilds and having the best quaility. its hard to tell some professional grower that you can grow better weed than him and he will laugh , yall get the same cut and he goes grows it indoors gets huge yeild of dank and you go and stick it at the end of the driveway in a sandy ditch and then at the blind test joint puff off everyone loves yer joints better lol
i try to grow weed liike i think forest gump would lol im so high

Try earthworm castings andmix high nitrogen and high phos. Just make sure what you choose your npks are in the right ratios for veg vs flower. I like mix guano and ew castings together with some moreMicorihzae. Awesome for top dress endo for flowers ecto for veg "dont quote me on that could be other way around.

powhound420 said:

Try earthworm castings andmix high nitrogen and high phos. Just make sure what you choose your npks are in the right ratios for veg vs flower. I like mix guano and ew castings together with some moreMicorihzae. Awesome for top dress endo for flowers ecto for veg "dont quote me on that could be other way around.

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I thought mychorrhizae is used primarily for transplants because it works on getting nutrients to the roots ?

From what I've researched is that it has to come in contact with the roots....Am I missing something here ?

"Myco" indicates fungus... "Rhizzae" indicates that this fungus sends out a network through the soil. So, Mycorrhizae means a fungus that spreads out by means of rhizomes, or tendrils, feelers, legs, roots, etc. The strawberry plant is rhizomatic, it sends out branches along the ground which will grow other strawberry crowns along the rhizome. Other rhizomatic plants include princess pine, wintergreen and pachysandra. If you look up these plants and get an idea of how they grow along their rhizomes, you can better understand how mycorrhizae works in the root zone of our favorite plant. Mycorrhizae can be put on the surface of the soil and still colonize the entire root zone, although it works much faster if it is built right into the medium from the start.

I just wanted to let you know that this was a great read and I really enjoyed it and can't wait to incorporate a lot of these techniques into my garden! I really don't want to have to brew teas and sometimes my teas turn stinky so using this is just easier and instead focuses my attention more on the plant than on brewing these teas. Simplicity please and thank you! Some of the things I'm dealing with right now would've been solved easiest using the things you've taught from the get go but can still be used to help me now. Big GIANT

Crazy Composer said:

"Myco" indicates fungus... "Rhizzae" indicates that this fungus sends out a network through the soil. So, Mycorrhizae means a fungus that spreads out by means of rhizomes, or tendrils, feelers, legs, roots, etc. The strawberry plant is rhizomatic, it sends out branches along the ground which will grow other strawberry crowns along the rhizome. Other rhizomatic plants include princess pine, wintergreen and pachysandra. If you look up these plants and get an idea of how they grow along their rhizomes, you can better understand how mycorrhizae works in the root zone of our favorite plant. Mycorrhizae can be put on the surface of the soil and still colonize the entire root zone, although it works much faster if it is built right into the medium from the start.

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You almost got it. The root part means that it associates with the roots of other plants. A mycorrhiza is a simbiotic association between plant and fungi. Endo mycorrhizal fungi which associates with cannabis only germinates proximal to roots. It does not grow down from the surface.