Pheno variance, set or random?

A lot of people talk about specific phenos of strains, like cherry AK or tangerine NYCD. It seems they are refering to a specific phenotype that has become popular but i was wondering if thats really how phenos work. All these people talking about cherry AK, assuming they didnt get cuts from the same plant might have nothing more in common then that taste/smell. I guess the question is do the different traits match up randomly (are traits like smell/taste/yield/potency completely independant of eachother) or are they grouped together sometimes (so like with AK the cherry trait would come along with all the other positive traits that everyone likes about it). What do you guys think?

You can fool all of the people some of the time or you can fool some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

It is what it is, you can call it or name it whatever you want, but the proof is in the pudding.

Like the dude who showed me some "chronic" he had. looked, smelled & tasted like mexican schwag to me & 2 hits off a joint gave me a headache THE NEXT DAY when I woke up. He should have called it lung cookie. Lotsa luck pawning that off as chronic to any experienced toker.

To answer your question maybe if i understand it, that's why breeders stabilize a strain thru back crossing, to get it down to just a few phenos in each strain, which could take years.

Some established strains have enough shared experience info available here & other web pages that early pheno indicators are well documented. In other words, the bushy onesmay be the most potent, but the purple stemmed ones are the best flavor, info from other grower's experience with the same strain from the same breeder. Early genetic indicators read dj shorts stuff.

picked up off the net.........

"The phenotype of an individual organism is either its total physical appearance and constitution, or a specific manifestation of a trait, such as size or eye color, that varies between individuals. Phenotype is determined to some extent by genotype, or by the identity of the alleles that an individual carries at one or more positions on the chromosomes. Many phenotypes are determined by multiple genes and influenced by environmental factors. Thus, the identity of one or a few known alleles does not always enable prediction of the phenotype.

Nevertheless, because phenotypes are much easier to observe than genotypes (it doesn't take chemistry or sequencing to determine a person's eye color), classical genetics uses phenotypes to deduce the functions of genes. Breeding experiments can then check these inferences. In this way, early geneticists were able to trace inheritance patterns without any knowledge whatsoever of molecular biology.

The interaction between genotype and phenotype has often been described using a simple equation:

Phenotype = Genotype + Environment
A phenotype is any detectable characteristic of an organism (i.e. structural, biochemical, physiological and behavioral) determined by an interaction between its genotype and environment."


your enviorment will make a huge diff in phenotypical expression. i see it with my grow buddies with the clones I keep.different bud, colors and aromas just with growers miles apart. nutrients also play apart in the outcome of your bud. some nutes will color up your plant, produce different tastes and aromas than other nutes. worm casins are rumored to increase flavor.

plants that you mention...cherry AK, tangerine diesel.......are anomalies, 1 in a 100, 1 in 500, these are phenotypes within the strainbase that are not typical in the population.

phenotypical expression is random, just like humans, ya never know what your kid will look like, he may be a anomaly and look like your great, great, great, great, aunt louise LOL.


CBF

my question is if i grow out a pack of AK and find a pheno with that cherry smell/taste, would that then have all the exact same traits as other peoples cherry ak? I guess im not really getting the question right. At the point where the DNA and phenotype or are set does the plant randomly determine what pheno (or geno) to be (ill be tall and branchy with high yield, or short and really tastey) or does it just determine it on a trait by trait level (tall or short, tall;high or low potency, high, etc..). I discussed NYCD with someone who said they had a fuel pheno, i mentioned i was recieving a fuel pheno NYCD but he was pretty damn sure it was not the same as his. I actually agree with him but i think this is more or less the case when people are like "hey I got that same pheno" and they might only have seen the plants in veg.

your cherry AK found in seed will not be the same plant another has found from seed.

a population of AK will not ever have the same genotypical plant ever. its the same with people, cattle, each plant is unique. a clone would be a dup.

CBF

there are prolly 5 different tangerine phenotypes floatin around, maybe more. who has the best? you could collect say the fuely phenos after growin 200 seed, and just breed the fuel plants for your own line of fuelish deisel.

CBF

I reckon there would still be slight diffs between 2 plants of the same breed and same pheno but far fewer than between diff plants of same breed and diff phenos. Not to mention diff plants of diff breeds.
And then theres a plant of one breed and say a Penguin, where you'll find loads of differences.
Depends where you want to stop the analogy.

thank you CBF, you've answered my main question. However I've seen people talking about getting a pack of seeds and looking for a specific pheno, it really seems like people think you can look for that one noteworthy trait and then all the other traits will just line up too.

GMT, i think the point is there will never be two plants of the same pheno. Calling two things the same pheno based on similar expressions of one or ever a few traits does not make it a pheno.

SammyCrack said:

thank you CBF, you've answered my main question. However I've seen people talking about getting a pack of seeds and looking for a specific pheno, it really seems like people think you can look for that one noteworthy trait and then all the other traits will just line up too.

Click to expand...

be nice if it worked that way. the tangerine pheno of NYCD for example.....say you find a nice tangerine smellin plant, tastes like tangerines, but compared to another found by another grower.......your plant may be stretchier, have a better stone, finish faster, may turn purp late in flower.

your plant may have it all but be bunk when smoked. there are lots of NYCD clones around all with there own special qualities. I think the elite cut of the strain is still to be found.

CBF

Wow great read CBF, I learned a lot about phenos and traits. I think when it comes time for me to start selecting anomolistic phenos of strains, I will be ready with this as a base for my info pyramid....I know, I'm blasted.

Sammy thank you brother for asking these questions, sorry for busting in. Keep it safe.

If you read the article by DJ Short in OG, the full article, he talks about how all his strains were created from crossing 1 afghani with 1 sativa and then growing out the F2s of that combination. He then crossed those different expressions with other plants to create the actual strains.... but Through a cross of an indica and a sativa, there is Flo , Blue Moonshine, and blueberry. Each of those have extras in them, but they all started out in that initial cross. DJ Short just had the ability to grow out thousands and thousands, and pick out the anomolies of this cross, the random 1:500 plants were seperated and isolated to create its own line.

The fact that a cherry AK has been found, just means that the flavor of cherry exists in the AK line, but cherry AK's will vary in growth pattern and potency, just as normal AK's do. Cherry is just 1:<insert number here> of happening.

The world of genetics is intense, and even if you keep it simple with a punet square, and work out some combinations of genes, you'll see that the F2 and F3 generations are extremely crazy, because you have random shots at recessive genes coming out, which will be the anomolies we're talking about.

a bit stoned.... let me know if I fubar'd that up a bit
wickyd

Ok how about this for a follow up question. Say I'm growing out a bunch of seeds of a sativa/indica hybrid and lets just assume they are all female. In veg some plants are showing fat indica leaves and others are showing thin sativish leaves. Are these leaves any indication at all of any other qualities of the plant? Are the indica leafed plants more likely to express the traits normally associated with indica plants (shorter flowering time, denser buds, stonier, less stretch...) or is it just another random pairing. No one is suggesting that the indica looking plant in veg will grow with entirely indica growth patterns but it seems that its assumed there is atleast a correlation between the leaves and all these other growth traits. What do you guys think?